I know other people have already done this, but I can't seem to find any threads on the subject. I want to remove enhancement bonuses from magic weapons, magic armor, and magic neck slot items for all the usual reasons.
How have other people done it? Is there one particular way that is considered to be the "best" way of doing it?
What I'm thinking of doing is taking the assumed enhancement bonuses and incorporating them as a generic "level-dependent benefit" as part of normal character advancement. So every PC would get +1 to attacks, damage, and defenses from levels 1 to 5, +2 from levels 6 to 10, and so on.
Magic items properties/powers that are dependent on the enhancement bonus (eg. "+1d8 damage per plus on a critical hit") would still use the default enhancement bonus for the level of the item in order to determine those things.
So what would have been a +3 flaming longsword would just be a level 15 flaming longsword that deals +3d6 fire damage on a critical hit. However, the PC wielding it would only get +3 to attacks and damage with it if they are between levels 11 and 15. (If they were to somehow get a hold of one at 10th level, their inherent bonus would only be +2, and if they hang on to it through to 16th level, their inherent bonus will go up to +4, though the critical will still only be +3d6).
The only issue I can think of with this is that the treasure parcel system assumes PCs will be finding items up to 4 levels higher than them, which means that a 2nd level PC could conceivably find a +2 item. By making the assumed enhancement bonuses built in, this would no longer be possible (a PC wouldn't be able to get the +2 until 6th level, although they would still be able to find 6th level magic items at 2nd level).
What do people think of that? Is that ok? Do the pros outweigh the cons too much? Do the cons outweigh the pros? Are there any pros or cons I haven't thought of yet?
Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Jonathan
What you are planning should work just fine.
In theory the bonuses start at 3rd level and then increase by 1 every 5 levels thereafter.
I get the every 5 levels thing but where does it say 3rd level?
What you are planning should work just fine.
Thanks.
TS
You can read about the most "complete" way to do it in my short n' sweet Tome of House Rules. (click on the link below that says Library of Unearthed Arcana.)
TS
Cheers!
I've got some comments about it but it's time to go home from work, so I'll ask later.
EDIT: OK, I'm home now. Obviously my idea of giving everyone a generic enhancement bonus to weapon/implement attacks and damage and all four defenses according to the assumed progression is the same as yours. However, I don't really like giving out generic damage bonuses on criticals (I'm happy to leave that in the domain of magic items) or the idea that ordinary, non-magical armor would increase its AC bonus as you get into higher levels. Thanks for sharing, though!
(I think of the armor boosts as increase in character skill rather than 'whoa, suddenly my plate mail is much thicker and harder!')
TS
You're welcome!
(I think of the armor boosts as increase in character skill rather than 'whoa, suddenly my plate mail is much thicker and harder!')
TS
I figured it was probably something like that but it still doesn't really appeal to me.
Doesn't really matter at this point, though, because my players don't want this anyway. One of them said I would "negate their impact" on the game.
I guess the +x items are a sacred cow they don't want slaughtered.
TS
Wait, he said your rules would negate his character's impact on the game? Well, whatever, that's a shame but I guess magical items are just too much fun to wait X adventures between finding new ones.
TS
No, he was saying it would negate the impact of magic items. I'm not really sure what he meant, but since none of the other players wanted it either, I didn't argue. The others just said that they either didn't want to meddle with the rules too much or that having + items was part of what made the game "D&D" for them. That kind of thing.
I'm curious, why exactly would you want to do this? If you're just moving the bonus to the characters, what difference does that make? I suppose it means they can't lose the bonus by losing the item, and that they can easily switch items and such, but if that's the case, why not just never put the players in a situation where they might lose the items, and have a friendly neighbourhood enchanter around to switch up their items or let them trade or whatever. I'm not trying to sound disparaging, but I just don't see what this change would add to the game.
When I use this house rule to run a low magical item game, it's partly because it relieves me of the need to keep such strict watch over what items I give my PCs. If I go for an adventure without giving out any items, the game's math doesn't go to hel as a result. Also, it's nice for a fighter for example to pick up a nearby crossbow and have a decent chance of hitting the retreating dragon.
And yeah, a DM can simply never put his PCs into situation where they can't use their items, but it's nice to have that option. (See: the ever popular "escape the prison" campaign launch.)
What it comes down to is that some of us DMs find it simpler to create this "naked PC cushion" than to compromise our vision or to modify our monsters to compensate for the way the game is designed.
TS
Edit:Also, if you want to play in a low-magic setting, you could just restrict the magic items to only the basic +x items, without any properties, and just reflavour them to be exceptional quality instead of magical in nature. Heck, even some of the non-basic items could be reflavoured as non-magical, like the Vicious Weapon, for example.
Edit:Also, if you want to play in a low-magic setting, you could just restrict the magic items to only the basic +x items, without any properties, and just reflavour them to be exceptional quality instead of magical in nature. Heck, even some of the non-basic items could be reflavoured as non-magical, like the Vicious Weapon, for example.
It was actually the opposite effect to this that I was trying to achieve ... namely, getting rid of the +x from items (and thus the dependence on them by the players) so that magic items were purely about the unique properties and powers that come with them. I was trying to remove the issue of everyone feeling like they need to have a +x weapon, +x armor, and +x neck item just to function properly ... the so-called "Christmas tree effect" in 3.5. The 4e designers made a great deal about how they were "fixing" magic items to get rid of that, but I feel like they didn't go far enough.
Moving +x enhancements to a generic "level-dependent benefit" would've made it easier for me to put magic items into the game because they're fun rather than because PC 1 doesn't have a magic weapon yet and can't hit things as well because his modifiers aren't as high as PC 3, 4, and 5, while PC 1 has some really nice magic armor (+4 PC level) and everyone else is jealous of him, etc etc.
Unfortunately, for my players, at least, doing that would make the game "not D&D".
I'm surprised that more of the people who do do this sort of thing haven't piped up yet. I know there are quite a few out there.
If I were to do without pluses, I'd get rid of them entirely. This means extra crit damage multiplier is based on the player's effective plus, not the item, and the item's special abilities would scale with the players level.
This is the following list I would probably use:
- Level 1 -
- Level 3 +1 hit/damage, 1 crit die
- Level 5 +1 Defenses
- Level 7 +1 hit/damage, 2 crit dice
- Level 9 +1 defenses
- Level 11 -
- Level 13 +1 hit/damage, 3 crit dice
- Level 15 +1 defenses
- Level 17 +1 hit/damage, 4 crit dice
- Level 19 +1 defenses
- Level 21 -
- Level 23 +1 hit/damage, 5 crit dice
- Level 25 +1 defenses
- Level 27 +1 hit/damage, 6 crit dice
- Level 29 +1 defenses
The reason why i'd split it up like this, is that you already get +1 hit/defenses/skills and a feat at every even level. At first level you get class features, at 11th level you get a paragon path, and at 21st level you get an epic destiny. By giving the bonuses to odd levels, you're not overlapping any bonuses that you'd be getting on even levels. I'd also allow players who wanted more defensive focus, to gain defenses before hit/damage if they wanted.
In this system a 1st level character with a flaming weapon would deal no extra crit damage, and the daily power would deal +1d6 fire damage and ongoing 5 fire damage. The at will power isn't level dependent so it's usable from level 1.
3rd level: +1d6 fire damage on a crit
7th level: +2d6 fire damage on a crit
13th level: +3d6 fire damage on a crit
15th level: daily power now does +2d6 fire damage and ongoing 10 fire damage
17th level: +4d6 fire damage on a crit
23rd level: +5d6 fire damage on a crit
25th level: daily power now does +3d6 fire damage and ongoing 15 fire damage
27th level +6d6 fire damage on a crit
The treasure parcel system is largely unneeded once you build the bonuses in, as even though you may have a character that has a +2 weapon at level 2, that character may also not have a magical +1 neck slot and armor slot item yet. Yet by 5th level, you've guaranteed every character (not just one of them) a +1 weapon, a +1 armor and +1 neck slot item in addition into whatever fun neat abilities you've given them in items.
Pros:
- You guarantee everyone's at the same power level.
- You make handing out treasure so much easier.
- If your focus is in making really special magic items, and less of them, it really makes it shine because magic items don't become obsolete or need to be upgraded.
Cons:
- As veritascitor said, You lose a bit of uniqueness in characters who will forgo defense for offense or the other way around.
- Everyone boosts in power at the same time (there's no getting a +2 greatsword at level 2)
- Magic item creation needs to be reworked if allowed at all, given the fact items level up with the characters
- Monetary and treasure rewards are largely thrown out, reducing one of the rewards system. Don't we all like finding loot?
I'd only change over if I didn't want to give out loot as a DM, as I find treasure generally doesn't reduce the uniqueness of magical items in my game. I don't feel the christmas tree effect and therefor I don't find a need for changing the system.
I don't feel the christmas tree effect and therefor I don't find a need for changing the system.
Neither do my players.
Thanks for taking the time to respond, though. Your proposal is pretty well thought out. Much better than anything I could come up with ...
Game balance really doesn't mean anything to me.
Thanks for taking the time to respond, though.
Well, it's because it was you that I actually took the time to construct that post. I'm not sure I would have done that for just the random person on the forum. Maybe I'm just getting old, but it seems that these forums have been attracting a lot of really arrogant people who just want to argue without any rhyme or reason, and it's made me want to leave these forums after 5 and a half years. It's was refreshing to see you post, and I was more than happy to do so.
Well, it's because it was you that I actually took the time to construct that post. I'm not sure I would have done that for just the random person on the forum. Maybe I'm just getting old, but it seems that these forums have been attracting a lot of really arrogant people who just want to argue without any rhyme or reason, and it's made me want to leave these forums after 5 and a half years. It's was refreshing to see you post, and I was more than happy to do so.
Hey, no problem! I know how you feel. I spend most of my time over at ENWorld these days. To be honest, I usually only pop over here to cross-post something I've posted on ENWorld in hopes of getting more responses. I avoid all the character development/optimization type forums like the plague now. I don't want to get caught up in any of that.
I really do appreciate your taking the time to craft all that and I really wish I could make use of it but my players would probably mutiny. They just aren't interested in me tampering with magic items.
I'm not sure they'll accept my encounter/daily power recharge house rule, either. They're not powergamers like I am ... ;)
Until I find a better solution that's my temporary solution.