Changing race attribute bonuses - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Changing race attribute bonuses

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Sabelkatten
Jan 24, 2010 16:07:37 This came up talking to one of my friends who plays a Dragonborn Wizard in one campaign. He's not very happy with the contribution his character was making, and a major reason for that is that his INT is only 18 rather than 20 since Dragonborn doesn't get an INT bonus (fixed array, one attribute 18). I was looking at making a Halfling Druid myself and would run into the same problem (WIS 18 instead of 20).

Now changing around stats is obviously an advantage, but the advantage can't really be that big - after all in almost all cases one can simply chose a different race that has the right combination!

So I was thinking, what about a level 1 feat that allowed changing one attribute bonus? It doesn't seem to be very powerful, but it would allow race/class combos that otherwise would be rather bad. There are probably a few combos that might be a little better than anything possible now, but I can't think of anything so powerful that it's worth more than a feat.
#2
Crimson_Concerto
Jan 24, 2010 16:52:47 Honestly? You can't think of anything broken or overpowered that could be done with such a feat because +1 to hit and damage isn't that big a deal to begin with. It's nice to have, but not having it is not going to ruin your character. Take Weapon/Implement Focus and Weapon/Implement Expertise, and you should be more than golden. Playing a race that doesn't give you a bonus to your class's primary ability score does not make it a bad character. Basically, such a fix isn't needed, because nothing needs fixing. "I don't have the maximum ability scores possible!!!" is just a problem with your D&D mindset, probably something left over from previous editions.
#3
Sabelkatten
Jan 24, 2010 17:14:56 Well, I don't see it as a terrible problem myself. It's my friend that was really unhappy about it. I'm playing a halfling archer ranger right now!

But it's worth noting that you'll need at least 2 feats to make up for 2 points less in your primary stat. I figured if you wanted as much as possible out of your character paying 1 feat and losing a bit from an unimportant attribute would be better.

Btw, my impression so far of 4e compared to 3/3.5 is that maxed out stats are more important in 4e. Probably because you needed to use more different stats in 3/3.5.
#4
salla
Jan 24, 2010 17:51:49 A 16 in one's primary attribute is fine. An 18 is better, and a 20 is awesome, but you don't need to be better than fine. Just because one is not optimal does not mean one is gimped (unlike 3rd Edition).
#5
tequila_sunrise
Jan 24, 2010 23:12:59 I think it's great how unhelpful and negative we can be to someone who wants to tweak rules in the house rule forum. /sarcasm
This came up talking to one of my friends who plays a Dragonborn Wizard in one campaign. He's not very happy with the contribution his character was making, and a major reason for that is that his INT is only 18 rather than 20 since Dragonborn doesn't get an INT bonus (fixed array, one attribute 18). I was looking at making a Halfling Druid myself and would run into the same problem (WIS 18 instead of 20).

Nobody should need a 20 to feel adequate, but I understand the desire to make unusual combos as appealing as the classic same-old, same-olds.

So I was thinking, what about a level 1 feat that allowed changing one attribute bonus? It doesn't seem to be very powerful, but it would allow race/class combos that otherwise would be rather bad. There are probably a few combos that might be a little better than anything possible now, but I can't think of anything so powerful that it's worth more than a feat.

I wouldn't make it a feat: because depending on your race/class combo it would either be a feat tax or an overpowered feat.

Here's my house rule: humans get a second +2 stat boost, and if you play a non-human and you want to swap stats around you can ask me to make it work. It wouldn't be hugely unbalancing to just say "swap your stats around however you want," but it does would make certain races decidedly more appealing than others.

Dwarves, for example. They've got racial feats that compensate for their lack of a Str bonus, like Dwarven Weapon Training. So if somebody says to me "I want to play a dwarf with a Str bonus," my reply is "No problem, as long as you're willing to give up Dwarven Weapon Training and such."

The other thing to consider is that every race [other than humans] are designed so that they get +1 to two defenses. Usually this comes from their ability boosts, but in the case of races like eladrin, they might need a direct defense boost. Which can cause problems with swapping stats around willy-nilly: for example if a dwarf swapped his Wis boost for a Str boost, he'd end up with just one +1 defense boost. If an eladrin swapped her Dex boost for a Wis boost, she'd end up with three +1 defense boosts. In these cases, I simply add or remove a direct defense boost.

All in all, none of these issues are hugely unbalancing. If you group really just wants everyone to start with a 20, let 'em! Or require the feat. But if you want to maintain the game's [mostly] fine-tuned balance, have the DM [or a balance-savvy player] look over stat swaps before approving them. Or ask the forum to look them over -- and hopefully you'll get helpful replies.
#6
Sabelkatten
Jan 25, 2010 2:06:13 Very good point about defense bonuses, I'd forgotten about those.

I figured the feat cost of simply changing the stat should be enough to compensate for any racial feats that gets a bit better. I wanted to avoid any risk of bias when deciding what combination was OK, that's why I wanted to define a feat for it.
#7
pluisjen
Jan 25, 2010 5:05:08 Why does your player want to play a Dragonborn Wizard?

And why does he want an 18 Int? (Do all your players want an 18 before racials?)

If you want a real Dragonborn Wizard, go with a 16 Int / 16 Con Staffbuild and wade into the thick of it with your staff. That makes for a serious Dragonborn flavored Wizard.

Thing is, not all races approach each class the same way. Try to emphasise on what makes you a Dragonborn Wizard instead.

Anyway, if he desperately wants his 20, it won't break anything, though it might make you feel less like a Dragonborn (but that might just be personal...)
#8
Sabelkatten
Jan 25, 2010 6:00:48 He's got a nice background for the character, and our whole group is pretty heavy on making characters that fit a particular idea we've thought of.

Anyway, we ended up with a fixed array of 18/17/16/15/11/10. The reason for it is pretty convoluted... So everyone could max out their primary stat. Which made the drop from 20 to 18 more noticeable.
#9
pluisjen
Jan 25, 2010 10:49:14 Hm, yeah if everyone is that high-powered I can imagine it's more of a hit. Normally, it wouldn't matter much because by taking that 20, you'd have crappy stats for everything else. But with an array like that...

Well. I'd say just try it out, see how it goes?
#10
Sabelkatten
Jan 26, 2010 4:56:10
Hm, yeah if everyone is that high-powered I can imagine it's more of a hit. Normally, it wouldn't matter much because by taking that 20, you'd have crappy stats for everything else. But with an array like that...

Well. I'd say just try it out, see how it goes?

I'll go for that. I just wanted to see if people here thought it would be unbalanced, but it seems that mostly it shouldn't be. Thanks, all!
#11
Neutronium_Dragon
Jan 30, 2010 3:11:30 Point him to Arcane Power, which has a few feats that should help him get more mileage out of the race/class combination without the need to crank Int any higher.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Sabelkatten Jan 24, 2010 16:07:37	This came up talking to one of my friends who plays a Dragonborn Wizard in one campaign. He's not very happy with the contribution his character was making, and a major reason for that is that his INT is only 18 rather than 20 since Dragonborn doesn't get an INT bonus (fixed array, one attribute 18). I was looking at making a Halfling Druid myself and would run into the same problem (WIS 18 instead of 20). Now changing around stats is obviously an advantage, but the advantage can't really be that big - after all in almost all cases one can simply chose a different race that has the right combination! So I was thinking, what about a level 1 feat that allowed changing one attribute bonus? It doesn't seem to be very powerful, but it would allow race/class combos that otherwise would be rather bad. There are probably a few combos that might be a little better than anything possible now, but I can't think of anything so powerful that it's worth more than a feat.
#2 Crimson_Concerto Jan 24, 2010 16:52:47	Honestly? You can't think of anything broken or overpowered that could be done with such a feat because +1 to hit and damage isn't that big a deal to begin with. It's nice to have, but not having it is not going to ruin your character. Take Weapon/Implement Focus and Weapon/Implement Expertise, and you should be more than golden. Playing a race that doesn't give you a bonus to your class's primary ability score does not make it a bad character. Basically, such a fix isn't needed, because nothing needs fixing. "I don't have the maximum ability scores possible!!!" is just a problem with your D&D mindset, probably something left over from previous editions.
#3 Sabelkatten Jan 24, 2010 17:14:56	Well, I don't see it as a terrible problem myself. It's my friend that was really unhappy about it. I'm playing a halfling archer ranger right now! But it's worth noting that you'll need at least 2 feats to make up for 2 points less in your primary stat. I figured if you wanted as much as possible out of your character paying 1 feat and losing a bit from an unimportant attribute would be better. Btw, my impression so far of 4e compared to 3/3.5 is that maxed out stats are more important in 4e. Probably because you needed to use more different stats in 3/3.5.
#4 salla Jan 24, 2010 17:51:49	A 16 in one's primary attribute is fine. An 18 is better, and a 20 is awesome, but you don't need to be better than fine. Just because one is not optimal does not mean one is gimped (unlike 3rd Edition).
#5 tequila_sunrise Jan 24, 2010 23:12:59	I think it's great how unhelpful and negative we can be to someone who wants to tweak rules in the house rule forum. /sarcasm This came up talking to one of my friends who plays a Dragonborn Wizard in one campaign. He's not very happy with the contribution his character was making, and a major reason for that is that his INT is only 18 rather than 20 since Dragonborn doesn't get an INT bonus (fixed array, one attribute 18). I was looking at making a Halfling Druid myself and would run into the same problem (WIS 18 instead of 20). Nobody should need a 20 to feel adequate, but I understand the desire to make unusual combos as appealing as the classic same-old, same-olds. So I was thinking, what about a level 1 feat that allowed changing one attribute bonus? It doesn't seem to be very powerful, but it would allow race/class combos that otherwise would be rather bad. There are probably a few combos that might be a little better than anything possible now, but I can't think of anything so powerful that it's worth more than a feat. I wouldn't make it a feat: because depending on your race/class combo it would either be a feat tax or an overpowered feat. Here's my house rule: humans get a second +2 stat boost, and if you play a non-human and you want to swap stats around you can ask me to make it work. It wouldn't be hugely unbalancing to just say "swap your stats around however you want," but it does would make certain races decidedly more appealing than others. Dwarves, for example. They've got racial feats that compensate for their lack of a Str bonus, like Dwarven Weapon Training. So if somebody says to me "I want to play a dwarf with a Str bonus," my reply is "No problem, as long as you're willing to give up Dwarven Weapon Training and such." The other thing to consider is that every race [other than humans] are designed so that they get +1 to two defenses. Usually this comes from their ability boosts, but in the case of races like eladrin, they might need a direct defense boost. Which can cause problems with swapping stats around willy-nilly: for example if a dwarf swapped his Wis boost for a Str boost, he'd end up with just one +1 defense boost. If an eladrin swapped her Dex boost for a Wis boost, she'd end up with three +1 defense boosts. In these cases, I simply add or remove a direct defense boost. All in all, none of these issues are hugely unbalancing. If you group really just wants everyone to start with a 20, let 'em! Or require the feat. But if you want to maintain the game's [mostly] fine-tuned balance, have the DM [or a balance-savvy player] look over stat swaps before approving them. Or ask the forum to look them over -- and hopefully you'll get helpful replies.
#6 Sabelkatten Jan 25, 2010 2:06:13	Very good point about defense bonuses, I'd forgotten about those. I figured the feat cost of simply changing the stat should be enough to compensate for any racial feats that gets a bit better. I wanted to avoid any risk of bias when deciding what combination was OK, that's why I wanted to define a feat for it.
#7 pluisjen Jan 25, 2010 5:05:08	Why does your player want to play a Dragonborn Wizard? And why does he want an 18 Int? (Do all your players want an 18 before racials?) If you want a real Dragonborn Wizard, go with a 16 Int / 16 Con Staffbuild and wade into the thick of it with your staff. That makes for a serious Dragonborn flavored Wizard. Thing is, not all races approach each class the same way. Try to emphasise on what makes you a Dragonborn Wizard instead. Anyway, if he desperately wants his 20, it won't break anything, though it might make you feel less like a Dragonborn (but that might just be personal...)
#8 Sabelkatten Jan 25, 2010 6:00:48	He's got a nice background for the character, and our whole group is pretty heavy on making characters that fit a particular idea we've thought of. Anyway, we ended up with a fixed array of 18/17/16/15/11/10. The reason for it is pretty convoluted... So everyone could max out their primary stat. Which made the drop from 20 to 18 more noticeable.
#9 pluisjen Jan 25, 2010 10:49:14	Hm, yeah if everyone is that high-powered I can imagine it's more of a hit. Normally, it wouldn't matter much because by taking that 20, you'd have crappy stats for everything else. But with an array like that... Well. I'd say just try it out, see how it goes?
#10 Sabelkatten Jan 26, 2010 4:56:10	Hm, yeah if everyone is that high-powered I can imagine it's more of a hit. Normally, it wouldn't matter much because by taking that 20, you'd have crappy stats for everything else. But with an array like that... Well. I'd say just try it out, see how it goes? I'll go for that. I just wanted to see if people here thought it would be unbalanced, but it seems that mostly it shouldn't be. Thanks, all!
#11 Neutronium_Dragon Jan 30, 2010 3:11:30	Point him to Arcane Power, which has a few feats that should help him get more mileage out of the race/class combination without the need to crank Int any higher.