I got this idea from Fable 2, and wanted to see what you all thought about it.
First off, spells would probably have to be purchased, so only spontanous casters or preperation casters that choose a limited number of spells are allowed. It makes things simpler and fits the system better.
Now, the spell has a caster level of the spell's level, and has to be "charged" to be greater. So say a burning hands spell is level 1, and fireball is level 3.
A spell charges every round equal to the key casting stat modifier of the caster. (If Favored Soul: Wisdom or Charisma, your choice..) Say Jim Profit is a battle sorcerer and has a cha of 18..
The burning hands spell starts off at level 1, only taking one additional round to reach it's peak of level 5 caster level..
The fireball spell starts off at level 3, it'll take two additional rounds to reach it's maximum, but cap at 10 despite it adding up to 11..
James did not favor this system. Saying all it does is trade in spells-per-day for additional casting time. But in the hindsight of battle, this will make spells balanced in my opinion.
For example, Wail of The Banshee is a level 9 spell, it'll start at caster level 9. That means without any preperation at all. A caster can, just by opening his mouth, kill nine people around him. Ofcourse save-or-dies/save-or-sucks were always the bread and butter of casters, and were always overpowered..
So I considered perhaps adding a stimulation involving a pure d20 check. When you go to cast a spell, you have to roll a d20 die. And roll equal to or higher then the spell's level (including when casting it's innitial minimum) to "charge" it succesfuly that round.
So what this means is, even though wail of the banshee is horrible, it'll require even to kill those nine people, a succesful d20 check of 9 or greater. Then every round charging it will also require a 9 or greater..
Where as burning hands will always succeed, (you can't roll lower then a 1) and by second round will always deal that 5d4 damage..
Casters will have to think strategically. This might sound like more book-keeping, keeping track of battle orders and what not. But no more then keeping track of spells-per-day. Also if you play more freeform, you can just assume as the GM whether or not the caster is taking too long to charge his spell..
If anything, this doesn't help casters, it hurts them. Because casters are now flat spellcasters. Everybody charges the same. Therefore what reason is there to be a sorcerer over say a beguiler? So some classes may need revamping, or taken out completely.. It also would not be uncommon to actually see more PCs only "dipping" in spellcasters for their favorite spells, then building an awesome fighter who doesn't need to wait forever to takeon a foe.
If anything, this makes low level spells more broken then higher level. Less failures, less wastes of time. And time is a more valuable asset then gold or mana..
I thought about too replacing the alignment system. Well, just the law/chaos part to corrupt/pure.
First off it'll confuse the players, instinctively they'll wonder how one can be corrupt-good or pure-evil. Then they'll see the underlining principle of it's just like law/chaos but without all the stereotypical baggage attatched.
Ironicaly my Fable character's purity is only surpassed by his evil. Blackguard GM ftw.
I got this idea from Fable 2, and wanted to see what you all thought about it.
First off, spells would probably have to be purchased, so only spontanous casters or preperation casters that choose a limited number of spells are allowed. It makes things simpler and fits the system better.
Now, the spell has a caster level of the spell's level, and has to be "charged" to be greater. So say a burning hands spell is level 1, and fireball is level 3.
A spell charges every round equal to the key casting stat modifier of the caster. (If Favored Soul: Wisdom or Charisma, your choice..) Say Jim Profit is a battle sorcerer and has a cha of 18..
The burning hands spell starts off at level 1, only taking one additional round to reach it's peak of level 5 caster level..
The fireball spell starts off at level 3, it'll take two additional rounds to reach it's maximum, but cap at 10 despite it adding up to 11..
James did not favor this system. Saying all it does is trade in spells-per-day for additional casting time. But in the hindsight of battle, this will make spells balanced in my opinion.
For example, Wail of The Banshee is a level 9 spell, it'll start at caster level 9. That means without any preperation at all. A caster can, just by opening his mouth, kill nine people around him. Ofcourse save-or-dies/save-or-sucks were always the bread and butter of casters, and were always overpowered..
So I considered perhaps adding a stimulation involving a pure d20 check. When you go to cast a spell, you have to roll a d20 die. And roll equal to or higher then the spell's level (including when casting it's innitial minimum) to "charge" it succesfuly that round.
So what this means is, even though wail of the banshee is horrible, it'll require even to kill those nine people, a succesful d20 check of 9 or greater. Then every round charging it will also require a 9 or greater..
Where as burning hands will always succeed, (you can't roll lower then a 1) and by second round will always deal that 5d4 damage..
Casters will have to think strategically. This might sound like more book-keeping, keeping track of battle orders and what not. But no more then keeping track of spells-per-day. Also if you play more freeform, you can just assume as the GM whether or not the caster is taking too long to charge his spell..
If anything, this doesn't help casters, it hurts them. Because casters are now flat spellcasters. Everybody charges the same. Therefore what reason is there to be a sorcerer over say a beguiler? So some classes may need revamping, or taken out completely.. It also would not be uncommon to actually see more PCs only "dipping" in spellcasters for their favorite spells, then building an awesome fighter who doesn't need to wait forever to takeon a foe.
If anything, this makes low level spells more broken then higher level. Less failures, less wastes of time. And time is a more valuable asset then gold or mana..
I thought about too replacing the alignment system. Well, just the law/chaos part to corrupt/pure.
First off it'll confuse the players, instinctively they'll wonder how one can be corrupt-good or pure-evil. Then they'll see the underlining principle of it's just like law/chaos but without all the stereotypical baggage attatched.
Ironicaly my Fable character's purity is only surpassed by his evil. Blackguard GM ftw.
for the charging thing, you might just want to a spell craft check with a DC of 10+spell level.
reasons for going beguiler over sorc: 1) armored caster 2) trapfinding, usefull for small groups or groups with people who don't want to play the rogues 3) more specials than the sorc 4) more skill points
So yeah Bob the beguiler can wear a chain shirt in addition to a high dex can add up to +8 to his AC
If you say it hurts casters why would people want to use it?
If i read it correctly the caster could get wail of the banshee at level 9? If I read it correctly this is a bad idea, from a DM perspective. Would I be required to first wait 9 rounds while I charge my Wail of the Banshee spell? From a player perspective this is also bad. I have to wait 9 rounds while my buddies who are not casters go in and start swinging swords and if they kill them before the spell is charged, I just wasted a spell and did not in combat but build a dice tower while I wait.
If I don't have to charge Wail of the Banshee and i can just cast it why would I bother to charge it if I can kill up to 9 people? If I am playing a sorc I would be able to cast it multiple times
Now here is another spell that would be a problem, Power word Kill. Both beguiler and sorc can get this spell and anyone with 100hp or less dies with no saving throw.
for the charging thing, you might just want to a spell craft check with a DC of 10+spell level.
reasons for going beguiler over sorc: 1) armored caster 2) trapfinding, usefull for small groups or groups with people who don't want to play the rogues 3) more specials than the sorc 4) more skill points
So yeah Bob the beguiler can wear a chain shirt in addition to a high dex can add up to +8 to his AC
If you say it hurts casters why would people want to use it?
If i read it correctly the caster could get wail of the banshee at level 9? If I read it correctly this is a bad idea, from a DM perspective. Would I be required to first wait 9 rounds while I charge my Wail of the Banshee spell? From a player perspective this is also bad. I have to wait 9 rounds while my buddies who are not casters go in and start swinging swords and if they kill them before the spell is charged, I just wasted a spell and did not in combat but build a dice tower while I wait.
If I don't have to charge Wail of the Banshee and i can just cast it why would I bother to charge it if I can kill up to 9 people? If I am playing a sorc I would be able to cast it multiple times
Now here is another spell that would be a problem, Power word Kill. Both beguiler and sorc can get this spell and anyone with 100hp or less dies with no saving throw.
I may be wrong but I think he means you gain access to the spells at normal level, meaning you don't gain 9th level spells any earlier, but you cast them weaker untill you charge them (in other words your effective caster level begins with the level of the spell and increases with each round spent charging). This is of great hinderance to the wizard but makes the spells less uber "I win" abilities, so I see the reason a DM that wants to balance wizards more would use it. Though I personally think the spell point system that was in the unearthed arcana (i think, may be wrong there) might be better than this
I may be wrong but I think he means you gain access to the spells at normal level, meaning you don't gain 9th level spells any earlier, but you cast them weaker untill you charge them (in other words your effective caster level begins with the level of the spell and increases with each round spent charging)
That's exactly what I meant. Thankyou for clarrifying..
This is of great hinderance to the wizard but makes the spells less uber "I win" abilities, so I see the reason a DM that wants to balance wizards more would use it.
And thanks for the creative critiscm. In Fable 1 mana was used, and then they decided to expriment with this "charge" type ability. I havn't seen an uproar about it. I think more people would be upset about HP not recharging. But that has alot to do with corruption/purity. (Do I drink water/eat vegetables for purity? Or drink booze/eat junkfood for corruption?)
My biggest concern was inflact the casters relation to eachother. As Thazerd said, there's really no reason to choose a sorcerer over a beguiler. The sorcerer might gain a tad more spells known, but it's hardly worth it. As such, the sorcerer/wizard would "merge" giving the sorcerer a boosted scribe scroll and bonus feats.
Magic items I'd immagine would be more useful and relied upon in such a setting. Not having to charge.
Thazerd also brought up that "what's so unbroken about power word: kill every round?". Which is why you have to roll a d20 everytime you go to charge a spell, even the innitial starting round. That way there's a 5 to 40% chance your spell doesn't charge properly. Thus consuming more time.
In effect, casters slow down the fight, atleast on their end. Which might explain why king's would have guardsmen at all and not mageknights or scholars casting spells upon peoples! By the time the wizard casted his spell, the assaliant could be long gone.
Also I'd consider putting some spells in the evil/good, corrupt/pure categories. Power Word: Kill for example would be an evil spell. (I'd imagine if I were making deals with dark entities, I'd expect a spell that killed without a saving throw..)
Ofcourse, this doesn't mean people who cast a few spells are that alignment. But it does put their alleigances into question, and can effect how others perceive them. I'd immagine a lawful good necromancer would have some explaining to do why he fealt the need to raise a bunch of undead minions forcing everyone to witness their dead relatives and dog fighting on his behalf. His rants of "undead are more like furniture" would come off as ambivalant, and though not inheritly evil, doesn't sound like something a noble goodguy would say either. Hence, minor shifts in alignment via points. Evil casters casting good spells may not have to justify themselves quite as much, but ultimately I'm sure their dark masters know what they're up too. And they might have to answer to them. Casting a good spell is like turning on a flashlight in the middle of a dark cave full of bats.
I may be wrong but I think he means you gain access to the spells at normal level, meaning you don't gain 9th level spells any earlier, but you cast them weaker untill you charge them (in other words your effective caster level begins with the level of the spell and increases with each round spent charging). This is of great hinderance to the wizard but makes the spells less uber "I win" abilities, so I see the reason a DM that wants to balance wizards more would use it. Though I personally think the spell point system that was in the unearthed arcana (i think, may be wrong there) might be better than this
Ok thanks for clearing that up for me
Magic items I'd immagine would be more useful and relied upon in such a setting. Not having to charge.
In effect, casters slow down the fight, atleast on their end. Which might explain why king's would have guardsmen at all and not mageknights or scholars casting spells upon peoples! By the time the wizard casted his spell, the assaliant could be long gone.
I don't feel casters slow down combat.
Kings hire guardsmen because they are typically cheaper to employ than spellcasters.
This spell system would render spellcaster players severally nerfed as they have to first cast and roll the d20 to charge their spell while trying to get over a certain number on a D20 inorder to charce all while building dice towers so that you are not bored. So a level 10 sorc would have to cast his fireball/lightning bolt would then have to wait another 7 rounds to cast his spell to the full 10d6. So while they spend the 8 rounds to cast and charge the spell the rangers/fighters/barbs/rogues/paladins/any other melee class has 8 rounds to do kill as many as enemies as they can until you unleash your one spell.
Now... As for the whole charging thing. Allow movement and such while charging it up? Base level is Spell Level +Mod (on a successful roll), increasing by Mod each successful check. Capped by your CL or the Spells CL cap. Natural 20 roll is two charges at once.
At higher levels your spells charge quicker by virtue of a higher mod. Higher level spells charge quicker than lower level spells. Maybe should be altered a bit, but it does leave the high-lvl bombs as actual W00T spells that make you feel good about them.
More likely, a level 10 sorcerer has 20 Charisma, and possibly a +4 item, making 24. Modifier 7. SInce fireball is base 3, it would only take two rounds to cap the fireball.
Regardless... I'd vote for making the Sorceror a bit more viable (in this system) by giving him the "Battle Sorceror" Variant as default without Spell Per day reduction.
Maybe have Quicken force the spell to max level in the first turn? Instead of making it a Free action?
The sorcerer wouldn't need 7 rounds. With an 18 Charisma, it would only take 3 rounds to cast a capped Fireball.
More likely, a level 10 sorcerer has 20 Charisma, and possibly a +4 item, making 24. Modifier 7. SInce fireball is base 3, it would only take two rounds to cap the fireball.
right my point is that for 3 rounds the caster has to build dice towers because they got nothing better to do because they are charging up while Mr. Sword/board Fighter can attack all three rounds because they don't have to charge up their attack.
Fireball, Lightning Bolt - Does 3d6, takes two more rounds to charge fully.
Stinking Cloud, Deep Slumber - Has full effect right away.
Flame Arrow, Fly - Always works, because you used it outside of combat. In fact, all buff spells that last at least a minute/level are pretty much always-on.
So in summary:
Blasting: Significantly weakened.
SoD/SoS: Weakened at higher levels, stronger at low levels.
Battlefield Control: Weaker in some ways, stronger in others.
Buffing: Boosted through the roof.
And yes, long duration stuff would be an issue.
But 3 rounds is much better than the 7 you said. And 3 rounds was a fairly poor caster anyway. It's more likey to be 2 rounds.
And yes, long duration stuff would be an issue.
well I did not see that part where the OP said that it gains charges based on ability mods.
No it would not be 2 rounds. One round to cast the start the spell. Wail of the Banshee is 9th level so starting at a caster level of 9. Assuming you have a 20 for Cha/Wis/Int it would take you another 2 rounds to charge up to a caster level of 19.
As for as the long the duration buffs it would depend on what they are. You could cast mage armor in the morning and spend 30 seconds casting one mage armor. Haste would require 4 rounds to complete with a caster level of 18.
Think of all those dice towers you will be making
Now this is of course just a flat 20 for your ability score and your DM will let you have magic items that boost ability scores (there are some out there who does not like those items [I know one personally])
And for 2 rounds, I was using Fireball, trying to max it out..
Charging Wail of the Banshee at level 20, using 28 as the base stat with +6 item, for 2 rounds gets you a caster level of 18. Charging Haste 2 rounds gets you 12, with a 3rd round getting you 20.
I'm going to point out... How would this interact with Quicken?
I was thinking about that lastnight lol!
I'd immagine that quicken spells would reduce the need for a round by 1/2 or 1/3rd. So within one round you could charge at the rate of double or triple what you would otherwise have too. Since there's no spell-slots, it would apply to all spells, and thus metamagic feats would be a bit more broken then they are now...
Question: How do you factor in all the prestige classes that increase your effective caster level?
They would probably be ignored and thus made useless. As in "old rules" the spellcaster themself was the important part, where as with this, the spell being cast is the important part..
The boost in your caster level might help you, but it doesn't do anything for the spell. So when you cast mage armor, since it's a level 1 spell, it's still only being cast as a caster level 1 spell, and is going to need charging..
So in essence, the key to being a good caster is improving your key-casting stat, so you can charge your spells faster.
Some of the problems have already been pointed out (quickened spells, non-CL-dependent spells), but keep in mind that you also have counterspells, immediate action spells, and assorted other types - and how does this interact with ready? You've only touched initiative and already this system is going to be tying either itself or the D&D ruleset in knots.