Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Irving Jul 09, 2008 17:30:09	These aren't fully fleshed out class concepts by any stretch, but here's a good place to put "design notes" for the basic idea of grouping the samurai, ninja, and monk as roles under a new powers source for an Oriental setting. "Chi" can mean many things, of course, but for this purpose let's consider it internal strength, focus, and self reliance. It's very, very similar to "psi", in some respects, but it's completely internal. (And yes, I know that's a fairly gross distortion, but let's move on for right now.) With that basic understanding in mind, let's play with the essential character concepts. The Oriental classes in D&D have always felt a bit muddled in their function and class role - the 3.5 monk wasn't quite a striker or controller, the ninja was interesting but tricky in execution, and the samurai never quite felt like a cohesive class. I'd like for the peanut gallery to give their input as to what defines these types of characters in fiction, what elements would work in making the characters fun to play, and how we could progress in making them exciting. Samurai - chi defender. There are two essential characteristics of the samurai that I think "matter". One is the classic quick-draw samurai strike. A samurai stares intently at an opponent, waits until the last moment, whips out his sword, and things disassemble all around him in improbable ways. The other is superhuman stoicism in the face of adversity. Giving the samurai the quick draw feat as a bonus seems like a natural. Some sort of iterative attack might be nice - I can visualize a daily, encounter, and at-will power that all do exactly the same thing - permitting you to chain them together. (Something like an Str vs. Will, 2[W]+Wisdom strike, contingent on a successful attack.) Playing up the "combo" aspect makes the game play for a samurai unique, and nods back to the old fighting games many of us grew up on. Attacks that stun or daze to increase the "stickiness", and some powers that permit you to convert reflex or fortitude saves to will saves, would also work well. Wisdom should be high on the list of samurai attributes - much like the paladin has Strength and Charisma builds, a Wisdom-based samurai should be viable. Ninja - chi striker. The easiest one to do. Powers that grant cover, grant concealment, and grant invisibility. Powers that do devastating damage from cover, concealment, and invisibility. Legendary pieces of ninja gear (like smoke grenades) might be best simulated as daily powers instead of actual equipment - reference the artificer play test class for an example of this school of thought. Monk - chi leader. Here's the controversial one, folks. We have to put him somewhere, after all, and this can make sense if you look at fiction and the movies. Monks are enlightened; in most fiction, they teach as much as they kick behind. A leader-monk would still have mad kung-fu skills; those attacks are easy to emulate in 4e. (A 1st level at-will touch-based 1d6+Wisdom attack? Works for me.) But he'd also be able to inspire other characters, dispensing "enlightenment" that increase the effectiveness of their attacks, grant extra saving throws, and even restore powers. A daily use power that counts as a passed milestone might be overpowered, but would definitely feel right in terms of a "meditate with me, grasshopper" moment. Thoughts?
#2 generalhenry Jul 09, 2008 17:55:07	Samurai The D&D samurai isn't much to go off. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai Samurai is a title of nobility. Like Knight. They used heavy armor (lets go with scale) They use katana (bastard swords), wakizashi (short swords), Tantō (daggers), yumi (longbows), hankyu (shortbows, for horseback), yari (longspears), and naginata (glaves) For stats Str, Wis, Cha? Ninja Actually the hardest to do. There's simply too much stuff to work with. No two people have the same notion of what a ninja is. Though anyone who tries making ninja anything else than a striker needs to be slapped Monk now I've heard it it all. I've seen people build them as defenders (it works) strikers (it works) controllers (it doesn't work) but I've never seen a leader build, I doubt it would work.
#3 Irving Jul 09, 2008 19:29:40	now I've heard it it all. I've seen people build them as defenders (it works) strikers (it works) controllers (it doesn't work) but I've never seen a leader build, I doubt it would work. Heh. I think that testifies to what a hodge-podge the 3.5 class was... I know it makes the history fans wince, but I'm suggesting we look to movies, pop culture, and fiction for definitions of these characters. I know that the samurai were really at their best as horse archers, but let's toss that out in favor of (good) anime and cinema. What's a "good" cinematic samurai like? How do you make a character that feels like Usagi Yojimbo? (Yes, he's a rabbit. But the stories are awesome.)
#4 generalhenry Jul 09, 2008 19:34:59	I know that the samurai were really at their best as horse archers, but let's toss that out just means they get martial ranged. What's a "good" cinematic samurai like? The first episode of samurai jack comes to mind. He whips all the historical goodies. A good D&D samurai should have all those options. But the most common fictional samurai is a whole other beast. He's an unarmored striker with wielding a katana in two hands.
#5 Irving Jul 09, 2008 19:46:43	Hmmm.... I can see it. But strikers also imply a lot of mobility. Unless you wire-fu everyone to the gills (which is an option), I don't see the mobility implicit in the a striker role in a samurai. I'm visualizing the classic "blind swordsman" duel, where the thugs stare at the samurai, sweat, stare, and Very Unpleasant Things happen. That seems like defender to me. Of course, I'm also hoping that if we're going to the bother of defining a new power source, it'll be diversified enough to be self reliant. But I'm just chewing on ideas.
#6 generalhenry Jul 09, 2008 19:55:41	That seems like defender to me. heh, carving people up like that seems more strikerish to me. To evoke defender to me it takes heavy armor on the battlefield. but then again that's why I brought up them being 'knights' a knight converted into current D&D classes might be a fighter, a paladin or a warlord a samurai converted into current D&D classes might be a fighter, a ranger or a warlord. Ninja is worse, rogue is part of the mix but ranger, fighter, warlock, and wizard are all multiclass candidates.
#7 Irving Jul 09, 2008 20:01:28	heh, carving people up like that seems more strikerish to me. To evoke defender to me it takes heavy armor on the battlefield. Turning them into julienne fries with a katana? Strikerish. Making the badguys stare at you, numb with horror, for so long you could go fix a cheese sandwich before you cut them down? Defenderish. Or lunch. Either one. Go figure. :P
#8 aluman Jul 09, 2008 20:13:23	Samurai using Iajuitsu are definitely strikers. Iajuitsu is the art of unsheathing killing your enemy, flicking the blood off and resheathing in one fluid motion. It Screams Striker. Samurai using a form of Kenjitsu are still probably Strikers. Samurai tended to not wear heavy armor, they wore what amounted to Lamellar armor it evolved in the west to Scale and eventually Plate armors, in DnD terms its similar to Chain-Scale, but they also didn't wear the amount of extra armor that was common with Western Knights. Templars (one of the quintessential western knight groups) would wear Plate with chain and padding under the chain. Lightly Armored warriors who deal death tend to be strikers (Rogues, Rangers). Back onto topic and away from my historical ramblings. For the Samurai, The two different forms should be 'Kyudo' and 'Kenjutsu' as Iajitsu tends to be more one trick wonder than something to be able to base an entire group of abilities around. Kyudo is the form of the bow, and Kenjutsu is the art of sword fighting. Although to be honest, with just renaming some of the powers the Ranger becomes the Samurai.
#9 doomsought Jul 09, 2008 21:00:00	Heh. I think that testifies to what a hodge-podge the 3.5 class was... no, it was just not defined by the four class types. Ninja can be a rogue cross class warlock, or the reverse. Monks are defenders that get lots of attack of opportunity abilities. (based off most monks I've seen)
#10 pilgrim_shadow Jul 10, 2008 16:47:02	I'm going to chime in here and say that the samurai should be a Striker IMHO. Light armor + emphasis on clean kills + not a tank =/= Defender. You could MAKE them a Defender, but it'll end up looking about as strange as a Controller Monk or a Defender Bard. Speaking of the Monk, I think they should be a Striker. They don't strike me as a Defender either. Again, they have terrible armor, and in earlier editions, low HP but a lot of attacks that do respectable damage (at least in theory). In addition to that, I don't see how making them a Leader would work out. True, the monk is introspective, enlightened, and a source of wisdom (among other cliches), but their focus is on self-enlightenment. They don't go around preaching in the town square about the virtues of meditation. Compare that to other Leader classes. Warlord? Huge, rousing speaches. Priest? Preaches by defenition. Bard (presumably)? Inspiring songs and tales. The monk just doesn't fit into that mold. Instead, I propose a Striker monk with an emphasis on mobility and a minor in Controller. They should be able to outmaneuver opponents, cruise over difficult terrain, and get a speed boost. Their blows are probably not on par with a ranger or rogue - though still impressive enough to be a Striker - but come with disabling or debilitating after-effects that let the party finish them off in short order. Ditch most of their extra attacks (wouldn't work well in this edition) but let them daze/immobilize/debuff. That's how I picture the monk working this time around.
#11 generalhenry Jul 10, 2008 17:56:54	the samurai should be a Striker There's a split. Real samurai where defenders. But most pop fiction samurai are instead kensai.
#12 aluman Jul 10, 2008 17:59:35	There's a split. Real samurai where defenders. But most pop fiction samurai are instead kensai. I politely disagree with you here Henry, most my research into exsisting Kenjutsu and Kyudo forms, makes me think that simply renaming some powers from Ranger to Samurai feel would give me a Samurai, thus they are Strikers.
#13 pilgrim_shadow Jul 10, 2008 18:02:14	...Upon further reflection, if the samurai is a Striker, then all three of them would be Strikers. That's boring, so allow me to backpedal. The samurai could be a Leader. His presence is so commanding that enemies fear him, his allies rally around him. Basically a warlord, but with more of an emphasis on two-handed combat, with some buffs and some debuffs. Less about moving troops around and more about making those troops count for more in the face of the enemy. Possibly gives a morale bonus of +1 to attack rolls to nearby allies as a class feature? Some light Striker qualities in that he can do heavy damage with two-handed weapons, maybe even kill weak enemies outright. This is off the top of my head, mind, so I have no idea how workable that is. Really there's no explicit need for a samurai class, beyond swelling the ranks of the Ki power source. It's a social distinction rather than an occupation, so a samurai could be a fighter, ranger, or warlord, or heck, even a wizard if he so chose.
#14 generalhenry Jul 10, 2008 18:07:35	I politely disagree with you here Henry, most my research into exsisting Kenjutsu and Kyudo forms, makes me think that simply renaming some powers from Ranger to Samurai feel would give me a Samurai, thus they are Strikers. That would give you one type of samurai. But it wouldn't cover the other types. While real samurai did practice Kenjutsu and Kyudo, that's not all they practiced. I don't think you can fit all samurai into one role or class. It's not hard to see them as leaders.
#15 aluman Jul 10, 2008 18:13:43	That would give you one type of samurai. But it wouldn't cover the other types. While real samurai did practice Kenjutsu and Kyudo, that's not all they practiced. I don't think you can fit all samurai into one role or class. It's not hard to see them as leaders. Its kind of like what happened when I started converting the old christian orders to classes, the reality is most of them were striker/leader/defenders. Which don't exist. Instead I decided to make the Hospitalars more into the leader types, and Templar/Teutonics more into Strikers and just leave the Defenders out. I think cinmatically samurai are strikers, its usually favorable to fit cinmatically to the class then realistically, the fact that there were real samurai that were strikers makes it all the better.
#16 generalhenry Jul 10, 2008 18:25:49	I think cinmatically samurai are strikers I agree. real samurai that were strikers That I don't agree with But it's moot. The class people want to play is the striker version. The problem with the ranger class is the TWF it doesn't really fit. They should be using THF The closest thing in the game right now is a great weapon fighter with a bastard sword who takes the kensai paragon path.
#17 aluman Jul 10, 2008 18:32:57	But it's moot. The class people want to play is the striker version. The problem with the ranger class is the TWF it doesn't really fit. They should be using THF Yeah which is the only issue really, and to me TH style and TW with two same weapons is mostly equilivent, I could allow samurai-rangers to use TW style powers replacing 'must be wielding two weapons' to 'must be wielding two weapons Or being using a weaopn in two hands' as there are a couple of Konryu's that in fact teach daisho fighting still. The closest thing in the game right now is a great weapon fighter with a bastard sword who takes the kensai paragon path. Except then they are missing the Ryudo.
#18 generalhenry Jul 10, 2008 18:46:03	fighter can use bows. Bow use is secondary anyways, for the cinematic version at least.
#19 aluman Jul 10, 2008 18:50:06	Eh most samurai movies I hae seen have at least one guy who is very very good with his bow. I still don't see samurai as defenders, they aren't heavily armored and they aren't slow. They say Striker to me.
#20 generalhenry Jul 10, 2008 19:02:23	heavily armored and slow doesn't make for good cinema :P
#21 aluman Jul 10, 2008 19:31:32	Which is why Western Knights are always mounted :lightbulb :D. Seriously though, I think Samurai would be better as Strikers, with a ranged and TH option, I would just be lazy and rename Ranger powers to equilivent names for Samurai That and I don't think Samurai should be 'chi' the Ninja and Monk sure, but Samurai (both in cinema and reality) weren't anything more special than a european knight.
#22 awesome_dude Jul 10, 2008 22:03:35	Is there any reason that you're shoving the samurai and ninja into the Chi power source other than that they're AZN? Because, you know, aside from not being a very smart idea, some people might not be too happy about those classes being segregated from the other classes based on their location in real life/their slanty eyes. It's sort of racist. Also, monks are like unarmed martial artists or something like that, right? Make them Martial, just like the samurai and ninja (not that you need separate classes in the first place). At least then you can play a German boxer without all that ki **** getting in the way (or maybe that's a separate class, using the Bräu power source).
#23 aluman Jul 10, 2008 22:09:18	Is there any reason that you're shoving the samurai and ninja into the Chi power source other than that they're AZN? Because, you know, aside from not being a very smart idea, some people might not be too happy about those classes being segregated from the other classes based on their location in real life/their slanty eyes. It's sort of racist. Actually going with cinematic ninjas, they need something other than Martial, the attributes given to ninjas. Also, monks are like unarmed martial artists or something like that, right? Make them Martial, just like the samurai and ninja (not that you need separate classes in the first place). At least then you can play a German boxer without all that ki **** getting in the way (or maybe that's a separate class, using the Bräu power source). Again Wushu monks, need something other than 'martial'
#24 awesome_dude Jul 10, 2008 22:14:57	Actually going with cinematic ninjas, they need something other than Martial, the attributes given to ninjas. Cinematic ninjas are still martial. You're talking about cartoons and video games (fine too, but distinction is key). They sure as **** aren't ki-powered. If you want to make mystical ninja, the arcane power source is a perfect fit (PERFECT!). Again Wushu monks, need something other than 'martial' Wushu monks are martial. Ki is the exact same thing as martial. There's nothing mystical about it, nothing supernatural and nothing inherently superior to any martial technique practiced by any other martial artist.
#25 aluman Jul 10, 2008 22:33:32	Cinematic ninjas are still martial. You're talking about cartoons and video games (fine too, but distinction is key). No I am talking American Ninja. Ninja Scroll (Anime not cartoon). I'm talking about the legendary powers of the ninja to literally turn in invisible. And their ability to cloud the minds of their enemies, let see, walk on water, fly. You know things you can't do with normal Martial power and didn't really occur with ninjas, but are part of the myth, which is what we build classes on. They sure as **** aren't ki-powered. If you want to make mystical ninja, the arcane power source is a perfect fit (PERFECT!). Actually Ki is what it is. Arcane - outside power you control Divine - God power Ki - internal power Wushu monks are martial. Ki is the exact same thing as martial. There's nothing mystical about it, nothing supernatural and nothing inherently superior to any martial technique practiced by any other martial artist. That makes Ki racist, which I doubt is their intent. As then Ki is just oriental (specifically japan/china excluding Yogis of India).
#26 squarecircle Jul 10, 2008 23:20:23	These aren't fully fleshed out class concepts by any stretch, but here's a good place to put "design notes" for the basic idea of grouping the samurai, ninja, and monk as roles under a new powers source for an Oriental setting. "Chi" can mean many things, of course, but for this purpose let's consider it internal strength, focus, and self reliance. It's very, very similar to "psi", in some respects, but it's completely internal. (And yes, I know that's a fairly gross distortion, but let's move on for right now.) I've always considered ki/chi as closer to a martial-style power source (but with mysticism). I would definitely put it closer to martial than psi, in any case.
#27 squarecircle Jul 10, 2008 23:28:32	Cinematic ninjas are still martial. You're talking about cartoons and video games (fine too, but distinction is key). They sure as **** aren't ki-powered. If you want to make mystical ninja, the arcane power source is a perfect fit (PERFECT!). LOL, that's even further from ki than psi! Arcane source is a HORRIBLE "fit" for a mystical ninja. Wushu monks are martial. Ki is the exact same thing as martial. There's nothing mystical about it, nothing supernatural and nothing inherently superior to any martial technique practiced by any other martial artist. So a ki blast is just like a martial blast, then? Wait... wtf is a "martial blast???"
#28 machmoth Jul 10, 2008 23:55:30	I think I'll hop in with my two-cents. First off, I really have to side with a lot of Irving's initial assessments. I'm not buying the "Samurai are strikers" argument. First, people are assuming that defenders don't do damage. I've seen fighters chop up the opposition with next to no trouble. A striker moves in and out, deals the damage where it needs to go, and avoids taking it back. While I like the image of a samurai charging through, chopping everything in their path to ribbons, I don't see that being their primary role. And, more so, I REALLY do not see them running away when the enemy turns to face them or being in the least bit fragile. I picture concepts such as Iajuitsu fitting much more into something similar to a fighter's Combat Challenge in which they lock an enemy into combat, making sudden strikes at just the right moment. And if you're worried about damage, take another stroll through the fighter's powers. Just because they're not doing top-die every single round doesn't mean they don't have bursts of "everything in front of my dies". I have no real expectations of ninja. Striker, obviously. Mostly a rogue with a stronger focus on the stealth, athletics, and acrobatics than on the charismatic elements. While I think a couple bits of warlock may look neat, don't go hog wild. I think this is a class that many would shove any and everything at, because "ninjas be cool", without too much regard for balance or role. To play devil's advocate, I think maybe Monk could work beautifully as a leader. First off, they really essentially are oriental priests. Not all clerics are evangelical preachers, and a monk wouldn't really have to be one. They do radiate a sort of peace and tranquility. Their knowledge of pressure points and chi flow is far more rooted in healing than stunning and killing. Their wisdom can inspire and enlighten with very few words. The mobility and "use your enemy's movements against them" nature of martial arts are a potent means of opening up an opponent's defenses to your ally's attacks. The idea that a monk would be able to use their naked body to the effectiveness of a cleric's divinely guided mace or a warlord's carefully trained blade is already epicly impressive. Forcing the fist of every monk's fist to cut like a ranger's arrow into his prey is hardly necessary. If a player wanted to capitalize on this aspect of the monk, that is what paragon paths are for, much like a warlord's Sword Marshal path improves their sword fighting rather heavily. What I seem to be seeing a lot is striker being placed at the front of many suggestions. And what that tells me is what I learned in my experience in online gaming, which is that people often want to be the damage dealer, no matter what the class's actual role is. It doesn't really make striker appropriate everytime one would think a class should be proficent in hurting things, or that no one else can ever deal damage. Striker is specifically for classes that can pick a target or opportunity, put as many dice on as possible, then find some means to not be there when the revenge seeking victim wants to return the favor. If you're willing to stay when the axe of retribution comes out, or give one ounce of care what your party members are doing outside of doing something for you, you probably aren't a striker.
#29 awesome_dude Jul 11, 2008 3:30:04	No I am talking American Ninja. Ninja Scroll (Anime not cartoon). I'm talking about the legendary powers of the ninja to literally turn in invisible. And their ability to cloud the minds of their enemies, let see, walk on water, fly. You know things you can't do with normal Martial power and didn't really occur with ninjas, but are part of the myth, which is what we build classes on. I think the arcane power source could fit the bill here. Actually Ki is what it is. Arcane - outside power you control Divine - God power Ki - internal power HAY OMG THATS EXACTLY HOW MARTIAL IS DESCRIBED That makes Ki racist, which I doubt is their intent. As then Ki is just oriental (specifically japan/china excluding Yogis of India). Ki is simply redundant (and racist). So maybe it could sound more mystical, but when it all boils down it's still perfectly within the bounds of the martial, and martial was never implied to be mundane (in fact, we need an absolutely redonkulous martial character). Let's just say that my image of the martial power source is that just because we can't do it in real life, doesn't mean D&D creatures shouldn't be able to. LOL, that's even further from ki than psi! Arcane source is a HORRIBLE "fit" for a mystical ninja. Sounds to me like you don't know what the arcane power source is. Arcane: Drawing on magical energy that permeates the cosmos, the arcane power source can be used for a wide variety of effects, from fireballs to flight to invisibility. Warlocks and wizards, for example, use arcane magic. Each class is the representative of a different tradition of arcane study, and other traditions exist. Arcane powers are called spells. Basically, they manipulate magical energy that is already there. Pretty much within the "established fluff" (i.e. common notions) of the mystical ninja. Only Mortal Kombat has inherently supernatural ninjas. I've only heard D&D nerds making a connection between ninjas and ki, at least. So a ki blast is just like a martial blast, then? Wait... wtf is a "martial blast???" You can call it "ki blast," but the fact remains that if it comes from within their body, it's just an exaggerated martial exploit.
#30 Irving Jul 11, 2008 7:17:46	Not a bad discussion going. I'm pleased this idea's got legs. As to regarding whether ki/chi might be racist, or whether these characters could be deemed martial or arcane: I'm using the chi source as a defining point for these characters for a somewhat "meta" sort of reason. If you define them all as having the same power source, then you can define them all as being part of the same set for publication of campaign setting purposes (not that I'm suggesting that's my ultimate goal, but it;s how my brain works). It's not my intent to be racist, but it is my intent to take classes from a specific culture and group them under a specific power source. By the same token, it's useful to be able to build a "balanced" party with only oriental/chi-focused classes. Placing the samurai as a defender and the monk as a leader makes that happen. (Yes, I know that there's no controller in this set up, but we've got a dearth of controllers in 4e right now anyways, so let's not open that can of worms just yet.) I agree that a samurai can and should deal some impressive damage, but damage is not the only quality of a striker. Mobility and fragility are also hallmarks of a striker, and I have trouble assigning either of those qualities to a samurai. Strikers, as a rule, "can dish it out but they can't take it". Can you visualize a samurai retreating, ever, under any circumstances? Heck, I think it would be characterful for a samurai to have epic-level daily abilities that trigger upon his death... or upon the use of his last healing surge, at least.
#31 pilgrim_shadow Jul 11, 2008 8:27:20	By the same token, it's useful to be able to build a "balanced" party with only oriental/chi-focused classes. Placing the samurai as a defender and the monk as a leader makes that happen. (Yes, I know that there's no controller in this set up, but we've got a dearth of controllers in 4e right now anyways, so let's not open that can of worms just yet.) I agree that a samurai can and should deal some impressive damage, but damage is not the only quality of a striker. Mobility and fragility are also hallmarks of a striker, and I have trouble assigning either of those qualities to a samurai. Strikers, as a rule, "can dish it out but they can't take it". Can you visualize a samurai retreating, ever, under any circumstances? Heck, I think it would be characterful for a samurai to have epic-level daily abilities that trigger upon his death... or upon the use of his last healing surge, at least. I agree that the Ki/Chi power source should have a ballanced array of roles, which is why I changed my vote for the samurai from Striker to Leader. However, sometimes a given role just fits a concept well. Striker, in this case, would not be inappropriate for any of these concepts. It's less a case of "everyone wants to play the Striker!" than it is "the Striker is a role which is at least somewhat appropriate for virtually all warrior-style classes." I still hold that the samurai would make a poor Defender without giving them A) some kind of artificial defense boost, B) massive HP, or C) both. One of the most essential traits of the Defender is that they can wade into a large group of enemies and come out reletively unscathed. Samurai, from a cinematic standpoint, are really more about making a single fatal strike and not having to worry about retaliation. In fact, I would say mobility and fragility are inherent to the concept, at least insofar as samurai tend not to be nicked and scraped to death so much as cut down in one blow. So, I still hold that the Striker role fits better, though I think Leader would be more ballanced against the other classes, and no less apropriate. Only Mortal Kombat has inherently supernatural ninjas. Actually, a lot of ninja movies (particularly Chinese films) ascribe ninjas inherent supernatural powers.
#32 Irving Jul 11, 2008 9:34:13	I still hold that the samurai would make a poor Defender without giving them A) some kind of artificial defense boost... I'm actually leaning towards this. In my initial post I'd listed resilience as a trait of samurai; I'm thinking less about the ability to take punches and more about the "Way of the Warrior" Zen stoicism that fictional samurai (and real samurai, for that matter) exhibit. To reflect that this isn't so much a matter of HP as much as will and focus, I'd like for that resilience to be reflected in ways other than healing surges. A power that lets you roll fortitude saves as will save for the encounter is good; a daily power that does not permit you to be bloodied makes sense, too, although that might create problems. I'm trying to suggest a sort of resilience where you take damage, but it just doesn't matter, because you're one with the universe. Whether that's mechanically possible is an open question, but...
#33 awesome_dude Jul 11, 2008 10:00:54	Not a bad discussion going. I'm pleased this idea's got legs. As to regarding whether ki/chi might be racist, or whether these characters could be deemed martial or arcane: I'm using the chi source as a defining point for these characters for a somewhat "meta" sort of reason. If you define them all as having the same power source, then you can define them all as being part of the same set for publication of campaign setting purposes (not that I'm suggesting that's my ultimate goal, but it;s how my brain works). It's not my intent to be racist, but it is my intent to take classes from a specific culture and group them under a specific power source. But those two ideas are mutually exclusive. As soon as you segregate based on culture, you're discriminating (not really against anybody, but it is based on race). I don't think you're a racist or idiot, though (I best make this disclaimer because apparently I act like everybody else is an idiot while discussing stuff). Samurai was just a title, and if made into a class would simply imply a mundane (if badass) warrior, hence the martial power source. Ki as a supernatural force has never been associated with the samurai, at least. As for ninjas, Pilgrim_Shadow mentioned some Chinese movies where the ninjas have magical powers. My retort would be "But is it ki?" I've only seen a handful of people associate ninjas with ki, and only one or two that weren't on this forum. I guess I'm just sort of confused as to why that is. The monk, I think should also have the martial power source, because I'd prefer people to be able to play a pugilist or unarmed warrior without massive reflavoring. By the same token, it's useful to be able to build a "balanced" party with only oriental/chi-focused classes. Placing the samurai as a defender and the monk as a leader makes that happen. (Yes, I know that there's no controller in this set up, but we've got a dearth of controllers in 4e right now anyways, so let's not open that can of worms just yet.) But why can't the arcane, martial and divine power sources be eastern as well? There are loads upon loads of divine figures in eastern mythology, and spellcasters aren't all that rare either. Not to mention warriors of about the same caliber as us inferior western gaijin have. I agree that a samurai can and should deal some impressive damage, but damage is not the only quality of a striker. Mobility and fragility are also hallmarks of a striker, and I have trouble assigning either of those qualities to a samurai. Strikers, as a rule, "can dish it out but they can't take it". Can you visualize a samurai retreating, ever, under any circumstances? Heck, I think it would be characterful for a samurai to have epic-level daily abilities that trigger upon his death... or upon the use of his last healing surge, at least. Yes, samurai would make for better defenders. The whole marking shtick fits an iaijutsu challenge. In fact, looking over the Fighter class, I could totally see it as a samurai. Well, a samurai with a spear, at least. I'm looking for good maneuvers to use with a spear.
#34 pilgrim_shadow Jul 11, 2008 11:04:07	But why can't the arcane, martial and divine power sources be eastern as well? There are loads upon loads of divine figures in eastern mythology, and spellcasters aren't all that rare either. Not to mention warriors of about the same caliber as us inferior western gaijin have. The Ki power source is listed in the PHB as one that will be used in future books, presumably with the Monk in mind. I don't see any problem with houseruling that Ki = Martial, but Wizards at least seems to think they're different. As for why other power sources can't be used, I don't see any reason why they couldn't. Not all Asian classes have to be Ki. It does fit better with Asian classes than western ones, though. Also, Irving, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there are any Fort/Will saves in 4e. You have Fort and Will defense, which works like AC, and you have saves, which are just a roughly 50/50 pass/fail check, but you wouldn't have a Fort save. Do you mean allowing the samurai to use their Will defense in place of Fort? That could work, although I'd be careful about swapping out defenses too much, as it means that in effect any bonus to Will also suddenly applies to Fort. That could potentially have ballance issues. As for the daily power that prevents being bloodied, I think it would work better as an Encounter power (or even a class feature) that prevents the samurai from being dropped below their bloodied score on a single hit. Not sure how useful that would be; any thoughts?
#35 wyld_mutation Jul 11, 2008 11:17:17	Well if it prevents you from letting a hit bloody you it can turn 20+ damage potentiall into 0. If you're close to being bloodied in the first place. Not that that's uncool, It would just not be a low-level power.
#36 aluman Jul 11, 2008 11:25:49	HAY OMG THATS EXACTLY HOW MARTIAL IS DESCRIBED No, MArtial 'You use your training to use weapons to do X' Ki 'Haranassing years of study your body achieves X' (or language similar) Arcane 'You have have learned, have made a pact, et cetra to manipulate arcane power.' Divine 'Your faith in your god allows you to do X' Psi 'By focusing your inner power you achieve X' Ki is kind of between Psi/Martial in my mind, Just like I expect Elemental to between Arcane and Primal. Ki is simply redundant (and racist). So maybe it could sound more mystical, but when it all boils down it's still perfectly within the bounds of the martial, and martial was never implied to be mundane (in fact, we need an absolutely redonkulous martial character). There is a difference from Martial and Ki though. A huge one. That or find me a single blast power in the current martial powers, a true blast that doesn't rely on weapons to achieve it. Let's just say that my image of the martial power source is that just because we can't do it in real life, doesn't mean D&D creatures shouldn't be able to. Oooo, so basically to you a martial power that allows guys to shoot fireballs is ok? Basically, they manipulate magical energy that is already there. Pretty much within the "established fluff" (i.e. common notions) of the mystical ninja. Only Mortal Kombat has inherently supernatural ninjas. I've only heard D&D nerds making a connection between ninjas and ki, at least. Naruto leaps out. Oh and then there is the Mythbusters they did on Ninja's supposed powers. Historically Ninjas have been ascribed with a multitude of mystic abilities. Any ninja class that doesn't have those is failing the ninja. They have supernatural techniques. In 2E this wasn't even handled similar to wizards and their spells. You can call it "ki blast," but the fact remains that if it comes from within their body, it's just an exaggerated martial exploit. No. Every martial exploit is either ran off a skill or a weapon. A Ki blast won't run off of either. You don't seriously think Ki Blast should be written as 2[w] or 1[w] do you?
#37 wyld_mutation Jul 11, 2008 11:34:12	That form of damage determination on Ki Blast would make me... *loud retching* Seriously Ki=/=Martial. Ki is about manipulating the flows of energy within you. Martial is about ******* bashing someone with a weapon. Where do you see the overlap?
#38 awesome_dude Jul 11, 2008 11:42:51	No, MArtial 'You use your training to use weapons to do X' Nope. Martial: Martial powers are not magic in the traditional sense, although some martial powers stand well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals. Martial characters use their own strength and willpower to vanquish their enemies. Training and dedication replace arcane formulas and prayers to grant fighters, rangers, rogues, and warlords, among others, their power. Martial powers are called exploits. There is absolutely no reason for ki not to be lumped in with martial. I hope WotC abandons their plans to do ki, because only the monk even remotely fits it, and that class should be represented by the martial power source so as to not stereotype martial artists and, basically, force players into playing a Kung Fu movie character if they want to play an unarmed warrior. Ki 'Haranassing years of study your body achieves X' (or language similar) Fits with the martial power source as described. Ki is kind of between Psi/Martial in my mind, Just like I expect Elemental to between Arcane and Primal. I'd imagine the primal power source to be more in between the elemental and arcane ones, but whatever. Not important. There is a difference from Martial and Ki though. A huge one. That or find me a single blast power in the current martial powers, a true blast that doesn't rely on weapons to achieve it. Just because it doesn't exist doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be invented. That's just bad logic. Oooo, so basically to you a martial power that allows guys to shoot fireballs is ok? If he's an azer or something, sure. Otherwise, fire is an external force that you can't manipulate to any appreciable extent with your own body or mind, meaning it's more within the realm of everything else. Naruto leaps out. Oh and then there is the Mythbusters they did on Ninja's supposed powers. Historically Ninjas have been ascribed with a multitude of mystic abilities. Any ninja class that doesn't have those is failing the ninja. They have supernatural techniques. In 2E this wasn't even handled similar to wizards and their spells. What does that have to do with ki? No. Every martial exploit is either ran off a skill or a weapon. A Ki blast won't run off of either. "Every X is" is very different from "every X must be." You haven't proven why martial exploits must be based on weapons. You don't seriously think Ki Blast should be written as 2[w] or 1[w] do you? I sure don't! But see previous point plus PHB quote.
#39 aluman Jul 11, 2008 11:57:03	There is absolutely no reason for ki not to be lumped in with martial. I hope WotC abandons their plans to do ki. Ki is from the chinesse Qi, which is closest to western ideas of vitalism. Its the idea that the body is rife with unique and special energy, leaning how to harnass and exploit these is very diffrent from martial powers as presented. Is it possible to lump Ki into Martial, sure. Its also possibly to toss Primal into Divine and Elemental into Arcane (From whats being ascribed to both so far anyway). There is already diffrences. Just because it doesn't exist doesn't mean it can't be invented. That's just spurious reasoning. Personally I find the idea of a martial blast silly and Pointless, Especially as Ki is an analog for soul energy. Even the PHB agrees. Do I think Samurai should be Ki? No. Ninjas, Monks Yes. They train and use dedication to do things beyond the well trained body. Its like the diffrence from Spiderman's strength to Wolverines. Wolverine is very strong for a human. Spiderman is just a bit beyond that. If he's an azer or something, sure. Otherwise, fire is an external force that you can't manipulate to any appreciable extent with your own body or mind, meaning it's more within the realm of everything else. But you think its ok to turn invisible as a martial exploit? Or to walk on Water? What does that have to do with ki? Its simple, its beyond Martial, its not Forumalitic like Arcane Therfor its something else. "Every X is" is very different from "every X must be." You haven't proven why martial exploits must be based on weapons. Its rather simple really there is upper echelon of what Martial allows, once you surpass that then you move to Ki. Ki is Very similar to Martial, I grant you, but its also close to Arcane or Divine. And probably fairly close Psionic.
#40 aluman Jul 11, 2008 12:08:47	But those two ideas are mutually exclusive. As soon as you segregate based on culture, you're discriminating (not really against anybody, but it is based on race). I don't think you're a racist or idiot, though (I best make this disclaimer because apparently I act like everybody else is an idiot while discussing stuff). Samurai was just a title, and if made into a class would simply imply a mundane (if badass) warrior, hence the martial power source. Ki as a supernatural force has never been associated with the samurai, at least. I agree here. I actually see some european archtypes that fit in Ki as a supernatural source. It is a stronger eastern grouping, as in the west Vitalism is mostly associated with the former theory of illness, and was never studied to the degree that the east did. There is certain groups (The Essences, Gnostics) that to one degree or another did attempt to exploit the internal energy of their body. They would be Ki too as the PHB puts it harness the power of soul energy (Ki) As for ninjas, Pilgrim_Shadow mentioned some Chinese movies where the ninjas have magical powers. My retort would be "But is it ki?" I've only seen a handful of people associate ninjas with ki, and only one or two that weren't on this forum. I guess I'm just sort of confused as to why that is. Because its not forumlatic nor from the gods, yet clearly a degree beyond mortals by themselves, Or at least its why I see it that way. The monk, I think should also have the martial power source, because I'd prefer people to be able to play a pugilist or unarmed warrior without massive reflavoring. Actually I allow a simple feat that allows unarmed strikes to be upgraded a die of damage, and count as either Light Blade (focusing more on knife hand attacks and such) or mace (pugilistic) for the purposes of exploits, and another feat that allows the replacing of Str with Dex for the purposes of unarmed combat. Allowing pugilists/unarmed warriors to have a 1d6+dex weapon and to be ok in lighter armor and still fullfill the role of defender. But why can't the arcane, martial and divine power sources be eastern as well? There are loads upon loads of divine figures in eastern mythology, and spellcasters aren't all that rare either. Not to mention warriors of about the same caliber as us inferior western gaijin have. I agree, its why I don't like the idea of Samurai as Ki. Ki should be Ninja, Monk, Skald. It like martial I can't see a good controller for, as the Wu Jen isn't Ki, they are Arcane. Monk as defender, Ninja as Striker, Skald as leader. Though I don't really like the term Skald for the leader the name I would prefer escapes me, but refers to followers of hippocitius. Yes, samurai would make for better defenders. The whole marking shtick fits an iaijutsu challenge. In fact, looking over the Fighter class, I could totally see it as a samurai. Iajutsu includes many techniques that decapite in one fluid motion. Samurai were a whole lot mobile then people give them credit, Yes they tended not to retreat, but they would move through combat zones to get to their target. I really see the Samurai as a hybrid Defender/Striker, which makes me leery of making it a full class. Well, a samurai with a spear, at least. I'm looking for good maneuvers to use with a spear. There is a decent class in the works on this board for spear based fighters. I think its working name is Lancer.
#41 pilgrim_shadow Jul 11, 2008 12:28:40	Well if it prevents you from letting a hit bloody you it can turn 20+ damage potentiall into 0. If you're close to being bloodied in the first place. Not that that's uncool, It would just not be a low-level power. Sorry, let me clarify. I'm not suggesting the ability should negate all damage, only that it should prevent you from dropping to (or possibly below) Bloodied status in a single blow. If you have 40 HP and you get hit for 21, it might prevent 1 or 2, dropping you to just above (or just to) your Bloodied value. However, as you've pointed out, the closer you are to being Bloodied, the better it becomes, so maybe that needs to be rethought. Perhaps it would be better to just have an Encounter power that prevents X damage? Also, I really don't think the discussion on the merits or lack thereof of the Ki power source are helpful to the discussion of the classes. Personally, I have no problems with Ki, but if someone else wants to lump Ki in with Martial, I'd have no problems with that, either. Unless someone can come up with a reason why the difference should matter, I think we can leave it to DM's discresion. I agree with Awesome_Dude that there's no reason why Martial can't have some kind of Ki blast, and while I'd probably call that a Ki power, in the end it really seems like semantics to me.
#42 wyld_mutation Jul 11, 2008 12:35:47	I like your points. And I figured you meant that it would drop the damage in excess of your bloodied value. As an ability it wouldn't be bad, however a nice class feature would be: Stoic: You have no bloodied value. (In other words any ability that keys off you being bloodied doesn't work.) Or alternatively: Stoic: Your opponents never treat you as bloodied. (This allows the dragonborn to keep their bloodied bonuses) It could also be a utility power...
#43 doomsought Jul 11, 2008 13:09:29	ki/Chi/Martial synonymous. You can't have that many quote without it being a flame or something weird. I see a monk as a defender, lots of attack of opportunities that let him move the enemy away from his friends and abilities that let him block attacks and/or retaliate based off the attack. (insert some funky name here) throw Blah blah. trigger: enemy a misses melee attack against monk Effect:the monk may move the enemy to another square adjacent to the monk and deals Blah blah damage
#44 pilgrim_shadow Jul 11, 2008 15:07:55	I like your points. And I figured you meant that it would drop the damage in excess of your bloodied value. As an ability it wouldn't be bad, however a nice class feature would be: Stoic: You have no bloodied value. (In other words any ability that keys off you being bloodied doesn't work.) Or alternatively: Stoic: Your opponents never treat you as bloodied. (This allows the dragonborn to keep their bloodied bonuses) It could also be a utility power... I like the second version myself. It seems ballanced enough, since very few powers at low level key off of being Bloodied (can't say for high level, I don't have enough experience with the new system yet). That plus an encounter power that prevents damage once per battle - say, 5/10/15 at heroic/paragon/epic levels? - gives us a good base for making a Defender samurai. They still need a nice AC boost, though, to really make them viable. Possibly they should be allowed to add their Wisdom modifier to AC when unarmored, in addition to DEX/INT? I don't think that would go far enough, though, even with Wisdom being one of the key attributes for the class. They'd need about a +3/+4 in both attributes to really put them on par with a Fighter, I think. Anyone else have any ideas on this? I see a monk as a defender, lots of attack of opportunities that let him move the enemy away from his friends and abilities that let him block attacks and/or retaliate based off the attack. I really still see the Monk as more of a Striker, but this could also work. Perhaps the class is just too broad? It seems to defy categorization. I've seen them proposed for every role. Maybe there should be one monk class that is a Striker with a very small touch of Controller (mostly in debuffs) and another that is a Defender with a touch of Leader? After all, we're not bound by the rules of the old editions here, and the monk idea really incorporates a lot of concepts rolled into one.
#45 awesome_dude Jul 11, 2008 15:16:05	Ki is from the chinesse Qi, which is closest to western ideas of vitalism. Its the idea that the body is rife with unique and special energy, leaning how to harnass and exploit these is very diffrent from martial powers as presented. Is it possible to lump Ki into Martial, sure. Its also possibly to toss Primal into Divine and Elemental into Arcane (From whats being ascribed to both so far anyway). There is already diffrences. I think that, considering the magical nature of every creature in the D&D multiverse, that the martial power source being considered mundane by real-life standards isn't telling the whole story. The description references willpower, which could be characterized as the integrity and strength of your soul. I think that right there is a whole untapped well by itself. The martial power source I think is basically about being the best you can be without external assistance. They all have the tools (astral and primordial essence, as implied by the Ecology of the Dragonborn article), so there's just the matter of putting them to use. It sounds supernatural, and it is, but only because everything in D&D is supernatural (even humans). It doesn't make the power source itself magical, it only shows that the creature using it is. As is, at least, the martial power source doesn't represent willpower nearly enough. A great shame if you ask me, as this was a chance to delve deeper than ever before into the possibilites of the body. Personally I find the idea of a martial blast silly and Pointless, Especially as Ki is an analog for soul energy. Even the PHB agrees. Do I think Samurai should be Ki? No. Ninjas, Monks Yes. They train and use dedication to do things beyond the well trained body. Its like the diffrence from Spiderman's strength to Wolverines. Wolverine is very strong for a human. Spiderman is just a bit beyond that. If anybody's disciplined in your example, it's Wolverine, though. Plus, your argument implies that ki should be more powerful, something I disagree with. I don't think that's what you meant, though, so I'll leave it be. That aside, though, consider the supernatural nature of all things in D&D. It's outlandish to think that we could do something like make force blasts or walk on water, but not so much for creatures created from astral and primordial matter, and that are fundamentally divine in nature (they were created by the gods). We have excess amounts of adenosin triphosphate and adrenalin glands. Humans in D&D have that plus a wellspring of supernatural goo from which they're made. But you think its ok to turn invisible as a martial exploit? Or to walk on Water? Actually, now that I think about it, fireballs aren't all that outrageous either. I've been reading the Ecology of the Dragonborn article and the DMG, and everything in D&D is supernatural by our standards. The designers must have forgotten. Added note: Just like Warlocks and Wizards take a different approach to arcane magic, couldn't monks and ninjas (if ninjas aren't made arcane) take a different path from the fighter? It's a whole different idea, granted, one that approaches martial power from an unfamiliar but exciting angle. Its simple, its beyond Martial, its not Forumalitic like Arcane Therfor its something else. There is little to be found that is beyond the martial power source, if read strictly, except that which is granted by the gods/someone else, or that is ubiquitous in the atmosphere. The martial power source is all about being friggin' awesome by yourself whether by extensive training, pure talent or something in between. It's about using every tool that you were born with or can muster to its fullest. Its rather simple really there is upper echelon of what Martial allows, once you surpass that then you move to Ki. Ki is Very similar to Martial, I grant you, but its also close to Arcane or Divine. And probably fairly close Psionic. It's close to psionic, but not so much arcane or divine, except maybe in manifestation (see my ramblings on the supernatural nature of all things in D&D). Psionics would be analogous to martial power, but it deals strictly in the matters of the mind. Instead of using your own body and soul, like martial does, psions might instead use that horribly overdeveloped brain of theirs to bend reality to their will. I agree here. I actually see some european archtypes that fit in Ki as a supernatural source. It is a stronger eastern grouping, as in the west Vitalism is mostly associated with the former theory of illness, and was never studied to the degree that the east did. There is certain groups (The Essences, Gnostics) that to one degree or another did attempt to exploit the internal energy of their body. They would be Ki too as the PHB puts it harness the power of soul energy (Ki) And all that, I feel, can fit within the martial power source. Because its not forumlatic nor from the gods, yet clearly a degree beyond mortals by themselves, Or at least its why I see it that way. Arcane: Drawing on magical energy that permeates the cosmos, the arcane power source can be used for a wide variety of effects, from fireballs to flight to invisibility. Warlocks and wizards, for example, use arcane magic. Each class is the representative of a different tradition of arcane study, and other traditions exist. Arcane powers are called spells. Mystical ninjas could be made arcane. They are extensively trained, but not to channel their soul power. Instead, they use their environment and tools that they have been taught to use effectively. I imagine that if ninjas exist in D&D, that they'd probably integrate some form of magic into their training. Actually I allow a simple feat that allows unarmed strikes to be upgraded a die of damage, and count as either Light Blade (focusing more on knife hand attacks and such) or mace (pugilistic) for the purposes of exploits, and another feat that allows the replacing of Str with Dex for the purposes of unarmed combat. Allowing pugilists/unarmed warriors to have a 1d6+dex weapon and to be ok in lighter armor and still fullfill the role of defender. That's a good rule. I personally would prefer unarmed fighting to be an optional fighting style for everyone and make the classes represent principles of training. That way, should the monk class appear, it wouldn't be restricted to unarmed combat, but have all that training to put to use through any medium he pleases (consider this a revision of any statement I've made to the contrary earlier). I agree, its why I don't like the idea of Samurai as Ki. Ki should be Ninja, Monk, Skald. It like martial I can't see a good controller for, as the Wu Jen isn't Ki, they are Arcane. Monk as defender, Ninja as Striker, Skald as leader. Though I don't really like the term Skald for the leader the name I would prefer escapes me, but refers to followers of hippocitius. I see Skald as martial. In fact, I don't see them as all that different from inspiring Warlords should their abilities be reflavored slightly. Iajutsu includes many techniques that decapite in one fluid motion. Samurai were a whole lot mobile then people give them credit, Yes they tended not to retreat, but they would move through combat zones to get to their target. I really see the Samurai as a hybrid Defender/Striker, which makes me leery of making it a full class. There's lots of ways to build a samurai, I guess. Fighters, rangers, warlords and even rogues. Not to mention that, D&D being what it is, magical talent should be no deterrent for a Daimyo to accept an oath of fealty from anyone. There is a decent class in the works on this board for spear based fighters. I think its working name is Lancer. I'll go look for it, thanks. Is it a defender? 'Cause I really want to play a defender right now. I like your points. And I figured you meant that it would drop the damage in excess of your bloodied value. As an ability it wouldn't be bad, however a nice class feature would be: Stoic: You have no bloodied value. (In other words any ability that keys off you being bloodied doesn't work.) Or alternatively: Stoic: Your opponents never treat you as bloodied. (This allows the dragonborn to keep their bloodied bonuses) It could also be a utility power... They're pretty good as class features, but note that dragonborn, for example, benefit from being bloodied. Maybe only have them be considered bloodied for purposes of benefits?
#46 aluman Jul 11, 2008 15:33:55	I think that, considering the magical nature of every creature in the D&D multiverse, that the martial power source being considered mundane by real-life standards isn't telling the whole story. The description references willpower, which could be characterized as the integrity and strength of your soul. I think that right there is a whole untapped well by itself. The martial power source I think is basically about being the best you can be without external assistance. They all have the tools (astral and primordial essence, as implied by the Ecology of the Dragonborn article), so there's just the matter of putting them to use. Then that really means that Psionic shouldn't exsist either. I am beginning to see things as split Internal/External like this
#47 wyld_mutation Jul 11, 2008 16:00:22	@ Awesome_Dude: The wording of the second abnility keeps yoor bloodied bonuses but prevents your enemy's. Thus you are, quite literally, bloodied for benefits. Maybe I'll set up an outline for samurai... Gotta finish my Battle sorcerro first though.
#48 Steveman Jul 11, 2008 16:05:28	Ki is described as "Soul Magic" in the PHb. Why would Samurai (a fighter build) or Ninja (a rogue build, or shadow striker) be considered Ki other than the shared asian roots? Lumping Samurai and Ninja as chi when it is clear that they belong elsewhere is a pretty racist thing to do.
#49 aluman Jul 11, 2008 16:17:04	Ki is described as "Soul Magic" in the PHb. Why would Samurai (a fighter build) or Ninja (a rogue build, or shadow striker) be considered Ki other than the shared asian roots? Ninjas have a number mystical things associated with them, which pulls them from rogue/shadow source. And its not Soul Magic, its Soul Power.
#50 Irving Jul 11, 2008 21:52:03	Becuase we're bogged down in it just a touch, I'll reiterate: The idea behind grouping samurai and ninja under the ki/chi powers source is to make them a cohesive unit for setting purposes. I'm not implying that ki/chi abilities are better, worse, or anything other than simply different from martial or arcane power sources. Nor does this imply that samurai are somehow less martial than fighters or any some such. I'm just setting out a box to put the Oriental material in. The box is not good, the box is not bad - it's just a box to organize our thoughts in. I have seen one version of the monk published in 3.5 that might provide an interesting starting point for rethinking the class. It was a monk variant created for the Rokugan setting. Rokugan used Void Points, a precursor to action points. Rokugani monks had more action points than anyone, and could do more things with them. The concept behind this was that Void Points were that moment of perfect harmony, the perfect strike you perform, the home run swing, that moment where you blink later and go, "I did that?". Monks, as enlightened beings, had a lot more of those and knew what to do with them. What about a leader-monk that works off the concept of sharing, regenerating, and manipulating action points?
#51 aluman Jul 11, 2008 22:02:35	See this is where 'for setting purposes' falls apart. Martial, Arcane, Divine - Three power sources to detail western icons Ki - One for oriental. That implies that western icons have a greater variety. That is not really racism, but its bigotry. Ki used as 'soul power' as implied by PHB I means that its not just orientals that will be included, nor will/would they be limited to Ki power sources.
#52 awesome_dude Jul 11, 2008 22:05:12	Then that really means that Psionic shouldn't exsist either. I am beginning to see things as split Internal/External like this
#53 Irving Jul 11, 2008 22:29:58	See this is where 'for setting purposes' falls apart. Martial, Arcane, Divine - Three power sources to detail western icons Ki - One for oriental. That implies that western icons have a greater variety. Only if you're limiting an oriental campaign to strictly ki power source characters. There's no reason to, I think. You can certainly include priests and wizards in an oriental campaign - relabel them as sohei and wu jen and you're good to go. Bezerkers/barbarians also have their place. I might tentative suggest using ki instead of martial characters in a strictly oriental settings, but even then, bushi (fighters) and bandits (rangers) have their place.
#54 aluman Jul 11, 2008 22:32:05	I read the text on the martial power source and see a huge wellspring just waiting to be exploited. It's about you, and all of you. Not just your body, not just your mind, but your very soul (though most of the classes as is focus on the body, martial heroes are described as vanquishing their foes through not only their own strength, but also willpower). Splitting the martial and ki power sources make each incomplete. Without ki, the martial power source is just mindless physical exercises, whereas without the martial power source, the ki power source is meditation and thought without those "mindless physical exercises" to put it to good use in combat. Chances are that since the monk is a warrior class, that they'll give him lots of punches and kicks that may or may not include him flying through the air at 80 mph, but to me that only proves that one simply reflects and relies on the other. I think I understand the crux of the problem now. You associate Willpower with Soul, and I most decidedly do not. To me the Soul is a Nth quality about people, no training in the world gives someone the ability to harness the energy. Is there some overlap? Yes. But there is also overlap with Arcane and Divine. The training he has requires immense amounts of discipline. I'm sure he retains the ability to abstain from anything he wants despite all his indulgences. Actually I disagree, Wolverine (Especially Ultimate Wolverine) is most assuredly not discplined. he is brash and ignores orders. Yeah, he slings web. He's the rogue to Wolverine's fighter. Even without the web he has more discpline then wolverine. But honest the super heroes are kind of a bad analogy as they change fitting the current writers desires. I think that since magic is a metaphysical type of thing, that casters of any kind have some type of sensitivity to it. They aren't manipulating their bodies, but ambient energies. That is why they aren't martial, strictly speaking (because of the power source's nature, everybody has some martial power in them, but they aren't all defined by it). The problem with this interpretation is there is no fluff to back it up. Outside of Warlocks, and even them its not that strongly in there. If anything the fluff goes the other way. Actually, your soul serves more as a pass when it comes to divine magic. The power is granted to you, but you have to devote it to your deity, and he must accept it. Actually, devoting yourself your Whole Self to your deity or Cause is what grants the power, this in turn is the same as the difference studying under an archmage and studying under a master swords man. One way you devote your Whole Self to perfecting an aspect of yourself, the other way you devote your Whole Self to channeling divine Energy. Wizards are considered mystical in fantasy. The two terms are closely related and the term "mystical" certainly doesn't imply the use of ki. To me Arcane = Studying or Force of perosonality, neither of which the Mystic Ninjas do. Wu Jen never existed as a concept except as, well, an eastern magician. And they weren't called wu jen, just magicians or wizard or sorcerer or whatever term people felt like using. Wellllllll not exactly. Wu Jen are much more closely related to Eastern ancestor worship practioners then other classes they put out (right down to having a guardian spirit), who actually did/do have a highly ritualized way of behaving. Also, ninjas being basically people trained to spy/kill/whatever, if you're making them mystical, arcane would fit much better than ki. Many of them probably didn't even know what ki was and most of those "magical effects" of theirs were the result of equipment use. "Magical" equipment would translate to magic, if anything. Actually, based on modern ninjutsu they did have an understanding of Qi, but thats a poor source. To me, magical and physical training equates the Ki source Kinda. Information FTW! Personally I agree about Skalds I just couldn't remember the name of them, still can't. but Pythaogrians would fall into western-ki as well. At least we agree on a few things. For the most part we do agree, I just don't think we need to group all internal powers as 'martial'.
#55 squarecircle Jul 12, 2008 1:06:03	Sounds to me like you don't know what the arcane power source is. Arcane is internal like martial, now? I missed the DDi article on that one. Care to link it? Basically, they manipulate magical energy that is already there. That's what wizards do, not mystical ninjas. Pretty much within the "established fluff" (i.e. common notions) of the mystical ninja. Name one. Only Mortal Kombat has inherently supernatural ninjas. I've only heard D&D nerds making a connection between ninjas and ki, at least. You don't hang out with japanophiles or anime/manga nerds, then. You can call it "ki blast," but the fact remains that if it comes from within their body, it's just an exaggerated martial exploit. So psionic powers are martial exploits, too??? You know what, let's just ditch ALL the power sources other than Martial. Let's ditch Arcane and put wizards and warlocks in the martial power source. Let's ditch Divine and put clerics and paladins in the Martial power source. Let's rationalize EVERYTHING as MARTIAL. That sounds totally fun to me.
#56 machmoth Jul 12, 2008 3:33:46	I'm actually kind of surprised to see that much discussion on "what ki is". While, from several angles, I can see lots of the arguments against the grouping and they make sense, think, really, what do you think WotC is going to do? If you look at 3.5, pulling out Complete Adventurer and the Player's Handbook, the monk and ninja have the word "Ki" right in the names of abilities they possess. The Samurai in Complete Warrior doesn't come straight out and say it, but it's pretty strongly implied. And, if Samurai were to be martial, then one could just as easily hand you a couple new Fighter powers, maybe a new class-feature option, and say "call your Fighter a Samurai". And that would work, but it would not sell you a book. And it pretty much boils down to that. What has been done in books in the past? What would package neatly into a book with the sub-title "Ki Powered Heroes"? We can pretty much expect we'll see an Oriental Adventures style book with Ninja and Samurai and Monk and maybe even Wu Jen or Sohei or Shugenja. The Wu Jen, an obviously arcane character, even has the word Ki tossed around in their description and powers. And so, whatever Ki is defined as, or however much logic may or may not play into it, it comes down to what will fit nicely into a like-themed book. And it's safe to say that it won't be "Oriental Adventures: Mostly Ki Heroes, But With The Occasional Arcane and Martial Thrown In Because It Seemed Appropriate." A Paladin uses his sword more than any magic, but he goes to church every Sunday, and so he's Divine. It's just easier to generalize, call a half-brined cucumber a pickle, and end the day with all your pigeons in a hole. While I may just eat my words, I can't see them changing their style and making anything that complicated over something so simple as a name. So, how about them monks?
#57 generalhenry Jul 12, 2008 7:01:27	Ki to me is similar to martial and psionic but distinct Ninjas breathing out poison clouds. Monk Quivering palm.
#58 wyld_mutation Jul 12, 2008 7:07:42	Nobody can run the, what was it, 90 feet per (assuming a move action was a half round) 3 secnds that a monk did in 3.x No amount of training can turn you into a never-aging outsider either. Ki may be similar to martial but the end result is that there has to be "something more" in the case of certain classes. Though I wouldn't mind if it was named something a bit more Generic.
#59 awesome_dude Jul 12, 2008 14:16:49	I think I understand the crux of the problem now. You associate Willpower with Soul, and I most decidedly do not. To me the Soul is a Nth quality about people, no training in the world gives someone the ability to harness the energy. Is there some overlap? Yes. But there is also overlap with Arcane and Divine. Everything about ki is also about willpower. Harnessing it, channeling it, focusing it, breaking stuff with it. Without that little extra willpower, all of your moves are mundane, even if they are badass. Monks would take a different path towards fighting, focused more on channeling their soul, which is part of who they are. The problem with this interpretation is there is no fluff to back it up. Outside of Warlocks, and even them its not that strongly in there. If anything the fluff goes the other way. What other way? In any case, they're doing something to manipulate arcane energy, and other people can't do it by simply imitating them. Actually, devoting yourself your Whole Self to your deity or Cause is what grants the power, this in turn is the same as the difference studying under an archmage and studying under a master swords man. One way you devote your Whole Self to perfecting an aspect of yourself, the other way you devote your Whole Self to channeling divine Energy. Doesn't this support my argument? Your soul is part of your whole self and there is no reason for an essentially supernatural being to not be able to use their willpower to break their own form (that is, release energy from their body). To me Arcane = Studying or Force of perosonality, neither of which the Mystic Ninjas do. And to complete the circle of quoting the fluff on power sources from the PHB: Arcane: Drawing on magical energy that permeates the cosmos, the arcane power source can be used for a wide variety of effects, from fireballs to flight to invisibility. Warlocks and wizards, for example, use arcane magic. Each class is the representative of a different tradition of arcane study, and other traditions exist. Arcane powers are called spells. There is nothing in here prohibiting ninjas from studying arcane magic to complement their training. Wellllllll not exactly. Wu Jen are much more closely related to Eastern ancestor worship practioners then other classes they put out (right down to having a guardian spirit), who actually did/do have a highly ritualized way of behaving. Sorry, brainfart. Actually, based on modern ninjutsu they did have an understanding of Qi, but thats a poor source. To me, magical and physical training equates the Ki source Kinda. But arcane magic fits the bill more strongly, I'd say. Ninjas aren't about crazy amounts of willpower or strong souls, they're about using all aspects of their environment to their benefit. Finding out about energy that permeates the environment would no doubt drive them to learn to manipulate that as well. Personally I agree about Skalds I just couldn't remember the name of them, still can't. What names? Specific names? Tradition names? Individual names? If you're talking about Nordic ones, maybe I can help. For the most part we do agree, I just don't think we need to group all internal powers as 'martial'. It's not about internal or external. Why is martial that channels ki different from arcane energy? Because martial stems from you, and just you. Everyone in D&D is a supernatural being (created from two kinds of supernatural goo by divine entities), so they shouldn't be limited by our real life standards of martial training. Arcane users just access energies that surround them. They are martial only in the sense that they can (try to) punch you if you get close enough for them to do so. Squarecircle is completely lost on this one. He apparently thinks that if it looks the same, it must be the same (laughable considering that IIRC, he claims to be studying philosophy). I'm actually kind of surprised to see that much discussion on "what ki is". While, from several angles, I can see lots of the arguments against the grouping and they make sense, think, really, what do you think WotC is going to do? If you look at 3.5, pulling out Complete Adventurer and the Player's Handbook, the monk and ninja have the word "Ki" right in the names of abilities they possess. The Samurai in Complete Warrior doesn't come straight out and say it, but it's pretty strongly implied. And, if Samurai were to be martial, then one could just as easily hand you a couple new Fighter powers, maybe a new class-feature option, and say "call your Fighter a Samurai". And that would work, but it would not sell you a book. And it pretty much boils down to that. What has been done in books in the past? What would package neatly into a book with the sub-title "Ki Powered Heroes"? We can pretty much expect we'll see an Oriental Adventures style book with Ninja and Samurai and Monk and maybe even Wu Jen or Sohei or Shugenja. The Wu Jen, an obviously arcane character, even has the word Ki tossed around in their description and powers. And so, whatever Ki is defined as, or however much logic may or may not play into it, it comes down to what will fit nicely into a like-themed book. And it's safe to say that it won't be "Oriental Adventures: Mostly Ki Heroes, But With The Occasional Arcane and Martial Thrown In Because It Seemed Appropriate." A Paladin uses his sword more than any magic, but he goes to church every Sunday, and so he's Divine. It's just easier to generalize, call a half-brined cucumber a pickle, and end the day with all your pigeons in a hole. While I may just eat my words, I can't see them changing their style and making anything that complicated over something so simple as a name. So, how about them monks? You do realize that WotC would likely get huge amounts of negative publicity if they shove the AZN classes into the ki power source, right? Accusations of being racist, would be the loudest ones, but I could think of a few others, given time. Nobody can run the, what was it, 90 feet per (assuming a move action was a half round) 3 secnds that a monk did in 3.x No amount of training can turn you into a never-aging outsider either. Ki may be similar to martial but the end result is that there has to be "something more" in the case of certain classes. I explained that with the magical nature of all beings in D&D. Everything about the monk would simply stem from realizing his own nature. Everyone can become immortal, though.
#60 Steveman Jul 12, 2008 14:31:51	Ninjas have a number mystical things associated with them, which pulls them from rogue/shadow source. And its not Soul Magic, its Soul Power. Power and Magic are the same thing in 4E. The Ninja's mysticsm is very much Shadow, from (to use a 3.5 spell) Shadow conjuration/evocation and stealth magic.
#61 machmoth Jul 12, 2008 15:02:16	You do realize that WotC would likely get huge amounts of negative publicity if they shove the AZN classes into the ki power source, right? Accusations of being racist, would be the loudest ones, but I could think of a few others, given time. Wait, what? D&D has been releasing Oriental-themed sourcebooks since 1985 when Gygax himself released the first Oriental Adventures book. Entire adventures and settings have been written, purely inspired off of Asian culture. I hear about negative publicity when a D&D source book comes out with a demon on the cover. I've yet to hear any such press when the cover had a nihonga samurai on it. Could people possibly have become so thin-skinned since 2001, when the last major Oriental Adventures book came out, that this is somehow an issue now?
#62 awesome_dude Jul 12, 2008 15:17:22	Wait, what? D&D has been releasing Oriental-themed sourcebooks since 1985 when Gygax himself released the first Oriental Adventures book. Read my post. I said "shove the AZN classes into the ki power source," not "publish an Asian-themed sourcebook."
#63 machmoth Jul 12, 2008 15:23:37	Read my post. I said "shove the AZN classes into the ki power source," not "publish an Asian-themed sourcebook." Then you'll have to pardon my ignorance, but I'm not sure what you mean by "AZN class". I made the assumption you meant "Asian-themed classes".
#64 awesome_dude Jul 12, 2008 15:34:53	Then you'll have to pardon my ignorance, but I'm not sure what you mean by "AZN class". I made the assumption you meant "Asian-themed classes". AZN is a term for Asian, mostly used to mock those who see Asians as different based on, well, pretty much nothing. If WotC gives every Asian class the ki power source, they might as well just rename the power source to "slanty-eyed."
#65 aluman Jul 12, 2008 15:39:38	Everything about ki is also about willpower. Harnessing it, channeling it, focusing it, breaking stuff with it. Without that little extra willpower, all of your moves are mundane, even if they are badass. Monks would take a different path towards fighting, focused more on channeling their soul, which is part of who they are. Actually Ki is self-soul powered. Willpower is essentially your stubborness, soul is the inner energy of your being. What other way? In any case, they're doing something to manipulate arcane energy, and other people can't do it by simply imitating them. No more than I can duplicate a fighter's move by imitating them. Doesn't this support my argument? Your soul is part of your whole self and there is no reason for an essentially supernatural being to not be able to use their willpower to break their own form (that is, release energy from their body). Except that its not willpower creating the effect, the willpower is the catalyst in that case, you have trained to shape your soul power into something specific. There is nothing in here prohibiting ninjas from studying arcane magic to complement their training. To me they fit Qi/Ki/Chi better than Arcane+Martial, not only that but they should have martial exploits as much as arcane, and from what we have seen there is no hybrid power grouping. So if nothing else they need Ki for that. But arcane magic fits the bill more strongly, I'd say. Ninjas aren't about crazy amounts of willpower or strong souls, they're about using all aspects of their environment to their benefit. Finding out about energy that permeates the environment would no doubt drive them to learn to manipulate that as well. I don't see that way par say. Its more to me, they come with certain techniques they have learned to shape their internal energy. What names? Specific names? Tradition names? Individual names? If you're talking about Nordic ones, maybe I can help. Nordic wise Stav practioners easily fall into the Ki I have in mind (at least modernized forms). It's not about internal or external. Why is martial that channels ki different from arcane energy? Because martial stems from you, and just you. Everyone in D&D is a supernatural being (created from two kinds of supernatural goo by divine entities), so they shouldn't be limited by our real life standards of martial training. Arcane users just access energies that surround them. They are martial only in the sense that they can (try to) punch you if you get close enough for them to do so. Squarecircle is completely lost on this one. He apparently thinks that if it looks the same, it must be the same (laughable considering that IIRC, he claims to be studying philosophy). Welll, this 'two kinds of supernatural goop' has been in the background since at least second edition. Mortals have always been made of postive and negative energy, and yet Fighters are still considered 'mundane' not supernatural at least until compared to RW.
#66 aluman Jul 12, 2008 15:41:56	Power and Magic are the same thing in 4E. The Ninja's mysticsm is very much Shadow, from (to use a 3.5 spell) Shadow conjuration/evocation and stealth magic. Shadow in 1E DnD was used a lot in illusion spells that duplicated other spells, and is likely where Shadow is going to be (with the hints that illusionist is going to be shadow powered) That form of Shadow is not ninja powers.
#67 machmoth Jul 12, 2008 16:15:01	Power source is really nothing more than a general theme or flavor. I bend the cosmos to my will. The fabrics of unreality weave through my fingertips and I make true what is not. I turn people into sheep. I am Arcane. My god spurs me forward, to impose his wrath with me as his vessel, to spread his mercy by my hand. I am Divine. I hit things with my sword. Really hard. I have honed my skills to an edge sharper than my sword. I like swords. I eat a bowl of swords for breakfast. I am Martial. And then there's Primal, Ki, Elemental, and Shadow. While I can only speculate on most of these, Ki is just a purely asian concept. If you pull out an Asian sourcebook, the word is scattered everywhere, like someone had too much Ki for lunch and chucked it up all over the pages. It is the flavor of Asian-inspired combat. Even a kid taking Karate will be told about it. What Ki is in reality is very Martial. What it is in fables is almost arcane. And it even has roots in religion. But, in every aspect, it is a purely Asian concept for something given a purposely ambiguous nature in literature and cinema for the purpose of mystery and wonder. They've had no problems giving a warrior Ki Shout, or a caster Ki Frenzy, or a monk Ki Strike or a ninja Ki Dodge or any number of abilities and skills. What this tells me is that people writing these books see Ki as something a kin to The Force in a Star Wars universe. A flow of power that exists in all characters of this general flavor, to be focused in ways both physical and metaphysical, not just any specific application of the term. And in the end, it works, because a power source is a flavor, and so is a culture's view on that power. But, that's really all I could possibly say on the subject. I'm not trying to say what should or shouldn't happen so much as what I believe past precedent and the information we have so far seems to imply will happen.
#68 Steveman Jul 12, 2008 16:18:13	Not really, the 1E shadow is considerably limited compared to what has come since. The 4E illusionis is in all liklihood is going to be the Shadowcaster from the ToM for 3.5. Since the the magic of the Shadowcaster class is so perfect for the ninja that there was even a ninja-like prestige class for multiclass Rogue/Shadowcasters
#69 urzafrank Jul 12, 2008 19:54:01	Power source is really nothing more than a general theme or flavor. I bend the cosmos to my will. The fabrics of unreality weave through my fingertips and I make true what is not. I turn people into sheep. I am Arcane. My god spurs me forward, to impose his wrath with me as his vessel, to spread his mercy by my hand. I am Divine. I hit things with my sword. Really hard. I have honed my skills to an edge sharper than my sword. I like swords. I eat a bowl of swords for breakfast. I am Martial. And then there's Primal, Ki, Elemental, and Shadow. While I can only speculate on most of these, Ki is just a purely asian concept. If you pull out an Asian sourcebook, the word is scattered everywhere, like someone had too much Ki for lunch and chucked it up all over the pages. It is the flavor of Asian-inspired combat. Even a kid taking Karate will be told about it. What Ki is in reality is very Martial. What it is in fables is almost arcane. And it even has roots in religion. But, in every aspect, it is a purely Asian concept for something given a purposely ambiguous nature in literature and cinema for the purpose of mystery and wonder. They've had no problems giving a warrior Ki Shout, or a caster Ki Frenzy, or a monk Ki Strike or a ninja Ki Dodge or any number of abilities and skills. What this tells me is that people writing these books see Ki as something a kin to The Force in a Star Wars universe. A flow of power that exists in all characters of this general flavor, to be focused in ways both physical and metaphysical, not just any specific application of the term. And in the end, it works, because a power source is a flavor, and so is a culture's view on that power. But, that's really all I could possibly say on the subject. I'm not trying to say what should or shouldn't happen so much as what I believe past precedent and the information we have so far seems to imply will happen. I love this post..... I was going to post some thing like this but now i do not feel the need to....... thank you
#70 squarecircle Jul 13, 2008 0:45:19	Edited quadrupleplex post to shorten page length. Please delete! Second Edit: Oops, seems my original was gone. To sum up what I said: I don't see Ki as necessarily "Asian only." In fact the only "Asian-themed" class I see as a lock for the Ki power source is the Monk. The Ninja I think is a better fit for Shadow. The Samurai, I'm really not sure. Maybe not even a base class, but a paragon path for Martial characters-- though I could see Samurai as Ki as well, depending on how they play it. I could also see Western concepts making it into the Ki power source. Wu Jen is definitely Arcane, not Ki.
#71 squarecircle Jul 13, 2008 0:46:55	EDIT: Whoah, quintuple post. Something wrong with the boards...? Could someone delete the extras? Lol.
#72 matthewswift Jul 24, 2008 18:21:54	I always thought of Chi or Ki energy more as a spiritual power, than a martial. It's in your life energy and will more than your brawn,brains or arcane inclination... A spirit based monk makes sence to me, but ditches the eastern flavor that calling his power source Ki brings. Ki = spirit energy. As far as the Monks Role: I'm going to side with the leader group. A spiritual leader instead of the martial warlord, divine cleric, or what's bound to be arcane bard, or natural druid (if it goes leader). This is the only sort of Monk that makes sense to me. I'm not gonna touch Samurai at the moment...
#73 lolwatzors Jul 24, 2008 18:36:03	Personally, I find the idea of a ki power source laughable, its pretty much a "Hey, its asian class, lets throw it in the KI group" is how it comes off to me. If you can be a cleric because of a philosophy (look at the PHBI, its in there), then you could certainly apply that logic to many more classes. The samurai is a fighter, not ifs, ands or buts. Scale armor is essentially Japanese Greatarmor. A ninja is a rogue...sorry, its what he is. You lurk in shadows, use light weapons, and throw stuff....um...sounds like the 4e rogue to me. Sure maybe a build option, or a pp to make the rouge more ninja-esk for those that seem to believe ninja's have magical mystical arts. (A spell casting type ninja would be a seperate class, but I wouldn't give it the ninja in name, I'd call it something else, that applies more universally). If they did a 'spirit' power source, and threw like the monk in there, and said the monk calls his spirit 'ki', I'd be cool with it. That way you could bring back some other SPIRIT based classes, without having an asian dump power source. A shugenja is either elemental or divine, the wu-jen is A WIZARD, a samurai is a greatweapon fighter or a two weapon fighter (build option, not a seperate class), ninja works well with either rogue build, the sohei is a different flavored paladin (maybe like a dex charisma build, once again, not a unique class idea, though honestly, using the protective paladin with like a glaive, you could pull of the effect), and I'm sure there are more classes I'm missing, but I think I illustrated my point.
#74 matthewswift Jul 25, 2008 14:31:38	If they did a 'spirit' power source, and threw like the monk in there, and said the monk calls his spirit 'ki', I'd be cool with it. That way you could bring back some other SPIRIT based classes, without having an asian dump power source. Yes! Monks would focus on their spirit/soul, while something like a spirit shaman would focus on the spirits of others. I'm thinking a controller? Either way, Ki is essentually life force, or spirit energy... not asian force. It's just the name folks use for it, whether it's oriental in origin or not.