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Class Creation & Balance

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Phantymwolf
Sep 28, 2008 2:04:03 I'll try to make this brief; I am working on a homebrew campaign world and want to make some unique classes for the setting including different builds and paragon paths for said classes. Also want to make some feats and such as well.

What are the balancing rules that one should follow for 4th edition when making new classes and feats? What should the damage output of a Defender power be at 1st level? 14th level? 27th level? What effects are too strong or too weak per tier? Same for Strikers, Controllers etc. What should a feat be able to do for a character of Heroic Tier? Or Paragon? What is too much and what is too little?

I knew how to do this decently well in 3.5, but 4th edition baffles me for some reason. I don't just want to copy/paste powers from other classes to make my new classes, so I want some guidelines on how to write up new powers (since classes are primarily the selection of a build and then powers) that are at least decently balanced with the rest of the game.
#2
elven_swordsmen
Sep 28, 2008 10:23:33 Wow, this is a broad-spectrum thread. I'll try to cover everything.

My first suggestion would be to read the DMG, cover to cover; there's a good deal of material on how to design/alter things. It would also be useful to read through all the powers of existing classes, so you can get an idea of how damage scales across the level gradient. If you read the books, you should be able to answer that list of questions for yourself.

That being said, I'm wondering why you'd bother making a new class. There are 9.8 perfectly good classes that you could refluff to fit the needs of your world. Having created a world of my own, I understand the desire to make it as innovative as a WotC-published campaign setting, but it may be a waste of your time to invent a whole new class when you might be able to achieve the same concept by reenvisioning an existing class. We'd need to know what sort of class you had in mind to be able to help you more here.

Races, feats, and paragon paths are decidedly easier, and make more sense. A feat should be weaker than a power in the same tier, but still mechanically significant obviously. A good rule of thumb might be this: if the feat you've designed is one you would always choose over other feats available at a given level, yours is too powerful. Paragon paths are tricky, but I've been designing a few the last couple days, and I've found the most useful thing is to read existing paragon paths. You have to come up with an 11th level feature, an action point feature (also at 11th), a 16th level feature, an 11th level power, a 12th level utility power, and a 20th level power. Your best bet would probably be to establish your paragon path in terms of two to four distinct themes/motifs, and brainstorm different ways those ideas could be represented mechanically.

All in all, I think 4e makes it much easier to innovate than 3e did because the rules are so streamlined. Just read the material we have and try to glean from that, then post it on the forums to be evaluated.

Cheers and good luck,

Kyle
#3
Phantymwolf
Sep 28, 2008 16:46:50 Well first off, I'm going to take your advice in one sense; I will be stealing the Swordmage class from Forgotten Realms and refluffing it to meet the want for one of my classes (called the Arcaneblade, which is fighter-mage hybrid that I designed in 3.5 as an Arcane version of the Paladin)

The other class isn't so much a class but a couple build options for one; a Dragon Pact Warlock, an Elemental Pact Warlock, and a Divine Pact Warlock. These are to fill out the Warlock class to make up for the loss of Sorcerers and their Bloodlines (which played a heavy role in my setting in 3.5). But obviously with new builds (especially for Warlocks) comes the need for new powers down the board as well as new Paragon Paths.

My last class has no real representation in 4th edition. None of the classes with their powers makes any sort of sense for it; the Engineer, and with the loss of crafting it becomes even harder to make. Though I plan to come up with a simple craft system for my setting as well. I would probably build the Engineer as a Martial Controller, so I'll take a look at the Wizard class for ideas for powers and such.

The other classes I have probably don't need a representation anymore, as they were spontaneous caster versions of the Druid and Cleric.

As far as feats go, it sounds like the same line of thought continues in 4th, but I've read a lot of the feats and there are some in the PHB that as a specific class I would never go without. Ever. Specifically the ones that increase Sneak Attack damage by a die code and the one that increases the Hunter's Quarry (or whatever it's called, don't have the book here atm and can't remember off the top of my head) damage by a die code. Who wouldn't want those feats for their Rogue or Ranger?

So it looks like I just have some alternate builds and Paragon Paths to make (though some will have to wait until other classes are released), and I'll read through the books more carefully when I get the chance.

To be honest I was hoping for a formula of sorts (i.e. a Level 1 Defender Encounter Power does a minimum of 1d6, but no more than a maximum of 2d10, and it will do no more than 2d8 if it has an effect such as pushing or knockdown. No these numbers aren't real, I just pulled them out for an example is all) so if anyone has one, please let me know. Specifically at this time I would need the Controller formula for damage if such a creature exists.
#4
Neutronium_Dragon
Sep 28, 2008 17:30:47 Dragon and Elemental pacts can be covered with the Infernal pacts, both with refluffing and when necessary by swapping the damage types of the spells for something appropriate. (Just be aware that some damage types are better than others.)

Divine Pact? That would probably end up coming out as a cleric, just with a different story to it.
#5
aluman
Sep 28, 2008 18:44:27
I'll try to make this brief; I am working on a homebrew campaign world and want to make some unique classes for the setting including different builds and paragon paths for said classes. Also want to make some feats and such as well.

What are the balancing rules that one should follow for 4th edition when making new classes and feats? What should the damage output of a Defender power be at 1st level? 14th level? 27th level? What effects are too strong or too weak per tier? Same for Strikers, Controllers etc. What should a feat be able to do for a character of Heroic Tier? Or Paragon? What is too much and what is too little?

Defenders' should be doing the same rough damage with power as a striker, strikers have the bonus umph from striker damage. A pure casting defender (not sure it would work, but in theory) should do 1d6 on at wills, 2d6 on encounter 3d6 on daily. (variable on secondary role though).

Controller
At will: One should be a area of some kind, one should slow or otherwise adversely affect movement.

Each level of encounter powers should have: A high damage nothing else power, a mid damage minor ailement, a low damage high status affect

Daily: Zone/Wall other impediment that lasts.

Strikers:
Damage is king, Movement Queen.

Leaders:
Healing (all leaders have a feature that grants healing surge +1d6 hp)
Extra attacks, Shifting, Bonus to Attacks.
#6
elven_swordsmen
Sep 29, 2008 7:57:41
To be honest I was hoping for a formula of sorts (i.e. a Level 1 Defender Encounter Power does a minimum of 1d6, but no more than a maximum of 2d10, and it will do no more than 2d8 if it has an effect such as pushing or knockdown. No these numbers aren't real, I just pulled them out for an example is all) so if anyone has one, please let me know. Specifically at this time I would need the Controller formula for damage if such a creature exists.

That's why I told you to read the DMG; that sort of information is in there in various forms, you just have to glean it out from a few charts.
#7
pyromancer999
Sep 29, 2008 17:05:26
The other class isn't so much a class but a couple build options for one; a Dragon Pact Warlock, an Elemental Pact Warlock, and a Divine Pact Warlock. These are to fill out the Warlock class to make up for the loss of Sorcerers and their Bloodlines (which played a heavy role in my setting in 3.5). But obviously with new builds (especially for Warlocks) comes the need for new powers down the board as well as new Paragon Paths.

Hey! You can NOT claim the orignal thinking of the Dragon or Divine pact (actually it's called the Astral Pact). You can also not claim originality for creating the powers and pact boons of those pacts, as those were created by ff6shadow and Rikiji, respectively. I demand an apology! otherwise, I would be interested to hear about the Elemental Pact.
#8
viatos
Sep 29, 2008 19:01:15 Did he claim original thinking somewhere?
Also, is he using their work or his own? They can't claim "original thinking" of those pacts either; both even exist in some form in 3.5.

A defender's at-will damage should be between 1d6 and 1d10, or 1[W]. You've been given a ton of good advice already; just look at other classes for further tips.

For an Engineer, you might be thinking a lot about zones, constructs, status effects, and area powers. Check out the Artificer preview and the cleric and wizard for good stuff dealing with these. Even if there are only a couple summoning powers, they cover the bases for designing your own pretty effectively.
#9
Phantymwolf
Oct 01, 2008 4:05:37 Thanks for all the advice and information everyone. I think I'll have a good start with what everyone provided. I'll be sure to post stuff here so I can have a sounding board for balance and such.

As for the Warlock Pacts, I saw them originally in Dragon Magazine during 3.5 (in a way) because I am using the idea of Sorcerer bloodlines of which there were 5 (that I can remember) originally; Draconic, Infernal, Celestial (or Divine), Fey, and Elemental. I am just taking the 3.5 Sorcerer class and replacing it in my campaign world with the 4th Warlock. Thus the need to fill in the other bloodlines (read: pacts) in the new system. Since the PHB has Infernal and Fey already, I will be coming up with my own versions of the other three that fit the flavor of my campaign setting.
#10
stordarth
Oct 02, 2008 9:02:24 best advice i can give is to look at the damage by level table in the dmg on page 42. For at wills, you'll want the low to medium column under the Normal Damage expression heading. For encounter powers, you'll want to pick either the medium or high reading from the normal damage expression, and possibly the low column under the limited damage expression. Dailies could use any of the limited damage expressions. if its pure damage, you want the higher settings, but if you're adding status effects or area damage in, you'll more likely want the lower end. Also, you'll want to consider their level. the damage rows are grouped by a level range of 3, so you will want preserve the highest damage values for the top level of each grouping.

the way I would look at it would be:

1st lvl of group:
[At wills] Low (Normal); [Encounter] Medium (Normal); [Daily] Low (Limited)

2nd lvl of group:
[At wills] Medium (Normal); [Encounter] High (Normal); [Daily] Medium (Limited)

3rd lvl of group:
[At wills] High (Normal); [Encounter] Low (Limited); [Daily] High (Limited)

Again, these would be balanced against secondary effects, nudging them down a category accordingly.
#11
pyromancer999
Oct 04, 2008 10:54:16
Thanks for all the advice and information everyone. I think I'll have a good start with what everyone provided. I'll be sure to post stuff here so I can have a sounding board for balance and such.

As for the Warlock Pacts, I saw them originally in Dragon Magazine during 3.5 (in a way) because I am using the idea of Sorcerer bloodlines of which there were 5 (that I can remember) originally; Draconic, Infernal, Celestial (or Divine), Fey, and Elemental. I am just taking the 3.5 Sorcerer class and replacing it in my campaign world with the 4th Warlock. Thus the need to fill in the other bloodlines (read: pacts) in the new system. Since the PHB has Infernal and Fey already, I will be coming up with my own versions of the other three that fit the flavor of my campaign setting.

The point is that other people have already done what you are pointing out here, and you seem to claim originality for that idea, while in reality, they have already been made by others.
#12
Phantymwolf
Oct 08, 2008 19:40:18
The point is that other people have already done what you are pointing out here, and you seem to claim originality for that idea, while in reality, they have already been made by others.

Wrong, I pointed out very specificallly that I saw the ideas originally in Dragon Magazine. Maybe you should actually read a post before accusing people of things they did not do.
#13
ff6shadow
Oct 09, 2008 0:54:52 I find the best way to balance a class, is compare it to similar classes in the same role.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Phantymwolf Sep 28, 2008 2:04:03	I'll try to make this brief; I am working on a homebrew campaign world and want to make some unique classes for the setting including different builds and paragon paths for said classes. Also want to make some feats and such as well. What are the balancing rules that one should follow for 4th edition when making new classes and feats? What should the damage output of a Defender power be at 1st level? 14th level? 27th level? What effects are too strong or too weak per tier? Same for Strikers, Controllers etc. What should a feat be able to do for a character of Heroic Tier? Or Paragon? What is too much and what is too little? I knew how to do this decently well in 3.5, but 4th edition baffles me for some reason. I don't just want to copy/paste powers from other classes to make my new classes, so I want some guidelines on how to write up new powers (since classes are primarily the selection of a build and then powers) that are at least decently balanced with the rest of the game.
#2 elven_swordsmen Sep 28, 2008 10:23:33	Wow, this is a broad-spectrum thread. I'll try to cover everything. My first suggestion would be to read the DMG, cover to cover; there's a good deal of material on how to design/alter things. It would also be useful to read through all the powers of existing classes, so you can get an idea of how damage scales across the level gradient. If you read the books, you should be able to answer that list of questions for yourself. That being said, I'm wondering why you'd bother making a new class. There are 9.8 perfectly good classes that you could refluff to fit the needs of your world. Having created a world of my own, I understand the desire to make it as innovative as a WotC-published campaign setting, but it may be a waste of your time to invent a whole new class when you might be able to achieve the same concept by reenvisioning an existing class. We'd need to know what sort of class you had in mind to be able to help you more here. Races, feats, and paragon paths are decidedly easier, and make more sense. A feat should be weaker than a power in the same tier, but still mechanically significant obviously. A good rule of thumb might be this: if the feat you've designed is one you would always choose over other feats available at a given level, yours is too powerful. Paragon paths are tricky, but I've been designing a few the last couple days, and I've found the most useful thing is to read existing paragon paths. You have to come up with an 11th level feature, an action point feature (also at 11th), a 16th level feature, an 11th level power, a 12th level utility power, and a 20th level power. Your best bet would probably be to establish your paragon path in terms of two to four distinct themes/motifs, and brainstorm different ways those ideas could be represented mechanically. All in all, I think 4e makes it much easier to innovate than 3e did because the rules are so streamlined. Just read the material we have and try to glean from that, then post it on the forums to be evaluated. Cheers and good luck, Kyle
#3 Phantymwolf Sep 28, 2008 16:46:50	Well first off, I'm going to take your advice in one sense; I will be stealing the Swordmage class from Forgotten Realms and refluffing it to meet the want for one of my classes (called the Arcaneblade, which is fighter-mage hybrid that I designed in 3.5 as an Arcane version of the Paladin) The other class isn't so much a class but a couple build options for one; a Dragon Pact Warlock, an Elemental Pact Warlock, and a Divine Pact Warlock. These are to fill out the Warlock class to make up for the loss of Sorcerers and their Bloodlines (which played a heavy role in my setting in 3.5). But obviously with new builds (especially for Warlocks) comes the need for new powers down the board as well as new Paragon Paths. My last class has no real representation in 4th edition. None of the classes with their powers makes any sort of sense for it; the Engineer, and with the loss of crafting it becomes even harder to make. Though I plan to come up with a simple craft system for my setting as well. I would probably build the Engineer as a Martial Controller, so I'll take a look at the Wizard class for ideas for powers and such. The other classes I have probably don't need a representation anymore, as they were spontaneous caster versions of the Druid and Cleric. As far as feats go, it sounds like the same line of thought continues in 4th, but I've read a lot of the feats and there are some in the PHB that as a specific class I would never go without. Ever. Specifically the ones that increase Sneak Attack damage by a die code and the one that increases the Hunter's Quarry (or whatever it's called, don't have the book here atm and can't remember off the top of my head) damage by a die code. Who wouldn't want those feats for their Rogue or Ranger? So it looks like I just have some alternate builds and Paragon Paths to make (though some will have to wait until other classes are released), and I'll read through the books more carefully when I get the chance. To be honest I was hoping for a formula of sorts (i.e. a Level 1 Defender Encounter Power does a minimum of 1d6, but no more than a maximum of 2d10, and it will do no more than 2d8 if it has an effect such as pushing or knockdown. No these numbers aren't real, I just pulled them out for an example is all) so if anyone has one, please let me know. Specifically at this time I would need the Controller formula for damage if such a creature exists.
#4 Neutronium_Dragon Sep 28, 2008 17:30:47	Dragon and Elemental pacts can be covered with the Infernal pacts, both with refluffing and when necessary by swapping the damage types of the spells for something appropriate. (Just be aware that some damage types are better than others.) Divine Pact? That would probably end up coming out as a cleric, just with a different story to it.
#5 aluman Sep 28, 2008 18:44:27	I'll try to make this brief; I am working on a homebrew campaign world and want to make some unique classes for the setting including different builds and paragon paths for said classes. Also want to make some feats and such as well. What are the balancing rules that one should follow for 4th edition when making new classes and feats? What should the damage output of a Defender power be at 1st level? 14th level? 27th level? What effects are too strong or too weak per tier? Same for Strikers, Controllers etc. What should a feat be able to do for a character of Heroic Tier? Or Paragon? What is too much and what is too little? Defenders' should be doing the same rough damage with power as a striker, strikers have the bonus umph from striker damage. A pure casting defender (not sure it would work, but in theory) should do 1d6 on at wills, 2d6 on encounter 3d6 on daily. (variable on secondary role though). Controller At will: One should be a area of some kind, one should slow or otherwise adversely affect movement. Each level of encounter powers should have: A high damage nothing else power, a mid damage minor ailement, a low damage high status affect Daily: Zone/Wall other impediment that lasts. Strikers: Damage is king, Movement Queen. Leaders: Healing (all leaders have a feature that grants healing surge +1d6 hp) Extra attacks, Shifting, Bonus to Attacks.
#6 elven_swordsmen Sep 29, 2008 7:57:41	To be honest I was hoping for a formula of sorts (i.e. a Level 1 Defender Encounter Power does a minimum of 1d6, but no more than a maximum of 2d10, and it will do no more than 2d8 if it has an effect such as pushing or knockdown. No these numbers aren't real, I just pulled them out for an example is all) so if anyone has one, please let me know. Specifically at this time I would need the Controller formula for damage if such a creature exists. That's why I told you to read the DMG; that sort of information is in there in various forms, you just have to glean it out from a few charts.
#7 pyromancer999 Sep 29, 2008 17:05:26	The other class isn't so much a class but a couple build options for one; a Dragon Pact Warlock, an Elemental Pact Warlock, and a Divine Pact Warlock. These are to fill out the Warlock class to make up for the loss of Sorcerers and their Bloodlines (which played a heavy role in my setting in 3.5). But obviously with new builds (especially for Warlocks) comes the need for new powers down the board as well as new Paragon Paths. Hey! You can NOT claim the orignal thinking of the Dragon or Divine pact (actually it's called the Astral Pact). You can also not claim originality for creating the powers and pact boons of those pacts, as those were created by ff6shadow and Rikiji, respectively. I demand an apology! otherwise, I would be interested to hear about the Elemental Pact.
#8 viatos Sep 29, 2008 19:01:15	Did he claim original thinking somewhere? Also, is he using their work or his own? They can't claim "original thinking" of those pacts either; both even exist in some form in 3.5. A defender's at-will damage should be between 1d6 and 1d10, or 1[W]. You've been given a ton of good advice already; just look at other classes for further tips. For an Engineer, you might be thinking a lot about zones, constructs, status effects, and area powers. Check out the Artificer preview and the cleric and wizard for good stuff dealing with these. Even if there are only a couple summoning powers, they cover the bases for designing your own pretty effectively.
#9 Phantymwolf Oct 01, 2008 4:05:37	Thanks for all the advice and information everyone. I think I'll have a good start with what everyone provided. I'll be sure to post stuff here so I can have a sounding board for balance and such. As for the Warlock Pacts, I saw them originally in Dragon Magazine during 3.5 (in a way) because I am using the idea of Sorcerer bloodlines of which there were 5 (that I can remember) originally; Draconic, Infernal, Celestial (or Divine), Fey, and Elemental. I am just taking the 3.5 Sorcerer class and replacing it in my campaign world with the 4th Warlock. Thus the need to fill in the other bloodlines (read: pacts) in the new system. Since the PHB has Infernal and Fey already, I will be coming up with my own versions of the other three that fit the flavor of my campaign setting.
#10 stordarth Oct 02, 2008 9:02:24	best advice i can give is to look at the damage by level table in the dmg on page 42. For at wills, you'll want the low to medium column under the Normal Damage expression heading. For encounter powers, you'll want to pick either the medium or high reading from the normal damage expression, and possibly the low column under the limited damage expression. Dailies could use any of the limited damage expressions. if its pure damage, you want the higher settings, but if you're adding status effects or area damage in, you'll more likely want the lower end. Also, you'll want to consider their level. the damage rows are grouped by a level range of 3, so you will want preserve the highest damage values for the top level of each grouping. the way I would look at it would be: 1st lvl of group: [At wills] Low (Normal); [Encounter] Medium (Normal); [Daily] Low (Limited) 2nd lvl of group: [At wills] Medium (Normal); [Encounter] High (Normal); [Daily] Medium (Limited) 3rd lvl of group: [At wills] High (Normal); [Encounter] Low (Limited); [Daily] High (Limited) Again, these would be balanced against secondary effects, nudging them down a category accordingly.
#11 pyromancer999 Oct 04, 2008 10:54:16	Thanks for all the advice and information everyone. I think I'll have a good start with what everyone provided. I'll be sure to post stuff here so I can have a sounding board for balance and such. As for the Warlock Pacts, I saw them originally in Dragon Magazine during 3.5 (in a way) because I am using the idea of Sorcerer bloodlines of which there were 5 (that I can remember) originally; Draconic, Infernal, Celestial (or Divine), Fey, and Elemental. I am just taking the 3.5 Sorcerer class and replacing it in my campaign world with the 4th Warlock. Thus the need to fill in the other bloodlines (read: pacts) in the new system. Since the PHB has Infernal and Fey already, I will be coming up with my own versions of the other three that fit the flavor of my campaign setting. The point is that other people have already done what you are pointing out here, and you seem to claim originality for that idea, while in reality, they have already been made by others.
#12 Phantymwolf Oct 08, 2008 19:40:18	The point is that other people have already done what you are pointing out here, and you seem to claim originality for that idea, while in reality, they have already been made by others. Wrong, I pointed out very specificallly that I saw the ideas originally in *Dragon Magazine*. Maybe you should actually read a post before accusing people of things they did not do.
#13 ff6shadow Oct 09, 2008 0:54:52	I find the best way to balance a class, is compare it to similar classes in the same role.