[Class] Dreadnought: Big and Mean

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Johnathan_Vagabond

Jun 22, 2009 11:33:59

IMAGE(http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cov_gallery/92349.jpg)
[b][smallcaps]Dreadnought[/smallcaps]

[/b]


I want to say this before anything else, I am not a coward. I've stood on the field and I've fought my share of men and beasts. I believe in the empire, in the emperor, and his armies; the righteousness of our campaign, the truth of the Word, and everything else the Griffon Empire stands for. I believe in it like a brillaint flame and a steady ember. But, but I couldn't hold my ground at the Battle of Takwa. That's what you'll never understand. I couldn't hold my ground before that monster!

I stood in the fourth rank of the line. Three men, strong men, standing infront of me and three behind me. When those things, those horse-men came charging out with their long lances we stood fast. The first and second men went down, a lance piercing their chest and driven into the ground. Their howls and cries of pain were audible. Before me was Jacob, a veteran of more battles than I by at least a half decade. He rushed forward, shield raised and swung at the beast. It was awful what followed. The horse-creature before me who I've come to know is called Radga, sliced off his head with her wicked sword, and flung it at me in the same blow. It bounced off my chest and landed in the mud at my feet. Much of the first two ranks elsewhere were the same. But then they howled, if you call it that, howled and sang with delight. It was awful, their voices rattled around my skull with the cries of my countrymen and I ran. I ran as fast as I could. I know that when I ran, others fled with me. But I didn't care, I didn't care then. I wanted to live.


A Dreadnought is a terrifying warrior that mixes melee and ranged combat with a terrifying presence. No stronger, perhaps weaker, than their near-cousins fighters or warlords, the Dreadnought torments their foes with obscene promises or a haunting inevitability. Whilst they wage war in the flesh, they wage a second battle in their opponent's minds, weakening them, terrifying them, and breaking them. There are two recognized tactics amongst the Dreadnought class.

Roaring Dreadnoughts howl and shout, sowing panic amongst the masses. Inexorable dreadnoughts plod slowly forward, shoving aside the weak and draining their courage. Sinister dreadnoughts cripple and carve, demoralizing their foes.

IMAGE(http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/tob_gallery/99694.jpg)
An Inexorable Dreadnought becomes a mountain in the eyes of his enemies.



CLASS TRAITS

Role: Controller. You control the battlefield with great sweeping attacks, harrying, targeted strikes, and old fashioned intimidation.
Power Source: Martial. You're prowess in combat allows you to clear large swaths of weaker enemies and force them about the field against their will.
Key Abilities: Strength, Charisma, and Constitution.

Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather, Hide, Chain.
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, military melee
Bonus to Defense: +1 Fortitude, +1 Will

Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution Score.
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges per Day: 7 + Constitution Modifier.

Trained Skills: At 1st level the Dreadnought is trained in Intimidate and any 3 skills from the list below.
[indent]Class Skills: Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Endurance (Con), Insight (Wis), Streetwise (Cha).[/indent]

Builds:
[indent]Roaring Dreadnought
Inexorable Dreadnought
Sinister Dreadnought[/indent]

Class Features: Dreadnought Type, Aura of Menace, Great Throw

Dreadnought Type: Select one of the following Dreadnought Type options.
[indent]Roaring Dreadnought: Your Aura of Menace has a zone size equal to your Cha Mod and you gain a +1 to attack with Battlecries.

Inexorable Dreadnought: When your Aura of Menace triggers one creature of your choice within a Close Burst 5 takes your Con Mod as a penalty to attack until the beginning of your next turn. Also you gain proficiency in Scale Armor.

Sinister Dreadnought: Enemies within your Aura of Menace are considered bloodied. Also, you may make monster knowledge checks as though trained with Int mod bonus.[/indent]

Aura of Menace: Whenever you reduce an enemy to 0 hit points, you emit zone 1 until the beginning of your next turn. Enemies within the zone take a -1 to attack rolls. This is a Fear effect.
-11th Level: -2 penalty to attack rolls.
-21th Level: -3 penalty to attack rolls.

Great Throw: Your terrifying bulk is not given to the delicacy of bows or daggers. When using heavy thrown weapons you ignore range penalties to attack. You treat improvised thrown weapons weighing 2 or more pounds as Heavy Thrown weapons with a +2 proficiency bonus and a damage die increase one size.

[size=4]New Keywords[/size]
Battlecry: Powers with this keyword gain a benefit from the roaring dreadnought class and some feats.
Anatomy: If you have succeeded on a monster knowledge check against the target this encounter, this power's effect ends one turn later than normal (If you hit with save-ends power, it instead ends on the turn following the save. If you hit with a turn that ends at the beginning or end of your next turn it ends on the turn following that).

[size=4] CLASS POWERS[/size]
#2

Johnathan_Vagabond

Jun 22, 2009 11:34:33
[size=4] PARAGON PATHS[/size]
Juggernaut

IMAGE(http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MartialPower/117997.jpg)
[i]Kill. Advance. Kill. Advance. Kill... I think you've got the picture.[/i]



Juggernought

Aye, Ah remember the Battle of Takwa. What d'ye want to know of it? No, Ah wosn't in the center, Ah wos on the right flank, the 'Ammer side of th'Anvil. Bloody mess, an' thats not just a curse. Shore an' we could 'ear their 'owling, but it didn't mean nothing t'us. Too far away Ah suppose. No, when we came around to lay into 'em, a block of their reserves broke off t'meet us. Ah wosn't scared at first. Ah've fought men in armour, Ah've fought giant's in armour, so armour's no fear t'me. But you see, they weren't just armoured in metal, though Ah kin not guess what else protected them. They advanced mercilessly through us, cleaving our men aside and taking no a scratch in the process. Ah remember them clearly, they were like golems, engines of destruction marching through our ranks like they were strollin' through a field of daisies. Maybe thats what they thought too. Ah don't remember if any of them fell, but I know that as they moved towards me it felt like they wos starin' at me, condemin' me t'death with every step, inplaccable, inexorable, unstoppable. Ah've seen fellow dwarves march like that, bot never to the same effect. Ah could no' help it. When he reached me Ah took a blow to the shield and fell down, played dead. Never done such a think in me whole life, an' Ah'll be ashamed of it 'til me funeral pyre. That's right boy, there'll be no stonin' me in with me ancestors after an act like that. Ah'll be burned away so nothin' of me cowardice remains t'taint the 'earts of me kin. Bot, if ye ask me boy, Ah'd do it again. Don't like sayin' it, bot Ah'd do it again if he were 'ere infront of me, do it again in an 'eartbeat.

Juggernauts are terrible, iron-clad engines of war that inspire terror in the hearts of all who see them. They shrug off the brunt of their enemies' attacks and drive them into a panicked terror, encouraging them to flee before the Juggernaut reaches them. In truth, the Juggernaut usually takes damage like any other armored warrior, but their presence and endurance draws their foes' attentions away from the Juggernaut's wounds and towards their own.

Juggernauts favor shields and heavy armor whilst trudging through the melee, pushing enemies around (and grinding them beneath their heel). They also have some defenderish powers that helps keep them alive in the midst of a furious battle. Make no mistake though, the Juggernaut exists to inspire that sinking doubt, that feeling of impending doom coupled with an inherent hopelessness that melts resistance and ends in defeat.

11th: Recovering Action
When you spend an Action Point you regain hit points equal to your Con mod +2 per adjacent enemy. Increases to +3 per enemy at 21st level.

11th: Churning Push
Whenever you push a creature at least 1 square, they take Con mod damage.

16th: Deathless Giant
Enemies do not treat you as bloodied until you reach 1/4 health.









#3

Johnathan_Vagabond

Jun 22, 2009 11:35:23
[center][i]Reserved[/i][/center]
#4

Johnathan_Vagabond

Jun 22, 2009 11:41:01
Mmmmm-kay. So this is probably a major faux pas on my part. You see, I'd had this class posted on the Controllers Board for for-eve-r. I never actually thought to look at the homebrew board for this homebreww class. Silly, huh?
#5

ekio

Jun 23, 2009 9:43:50
In before *****fest regarding martial controllers.

But I think this kind of class is one of the more viable martial controller ideas; keep at it.
#6

Dionon

Jun 23, 2009 20:02:23
What's wrong with Martial Controllers? I think this class looks great.

Question, is a PDF of this class being made?
#7

Crimson_Concerto

Jun 23, 2009 20:23:28
For the purposes of this thread, I'm going to go ahead and put aside the fact that I think this is a terrible idea from a conceptual point of view and that I'd never play it or allow it into one of my games. I recognize that this isn't the place to debate whether a Martial Controller is a good or bad idea, so I won't tell you that it isn't. So now that I've got that out of the way...

Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather, Hide, Chain.
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, military melee
Bonus to Defense: +1 Fortitude, +1 Will

I've noticed a lot of your powers have the "Implement" keyword. However, you seem to have given this class no implement proficiencies at all. Furthermore, is it really appropriate for a martial class that isn't supposed to be using magic to actually employ implements? I see where you're going with the idea, because you're wanting to attack NADs and sometimes the attack is based off of intimidation rather than actually having anything at all to do with a weapon, but if that's how you're going to work it, I really think you need to clear up exactly how you want this to work. In the end, would you be willing to come up with another accessory keyword entirely? One that is neither a weapon nor an implement? Alternatively, such attacks could simply have neither keyword and just gain a +1 bonus to hit a NAD per 5 levels or whatever (of course then you wouldn't be able to apply any special weapon or implement powers or properties to them)... Actually, it looks like maybe you did that but forgot to remove the Implement keyword from some powers?

Alternatively, did you explain this and I just missed it somewhere? :embarrass

Dreadnought Type: Select one of the following Dreadnought Type options.
[indent]Inexorable Dreadnought: When your Aura of Menace triggers one creature of your choice within a Close Burst 5 takes your Con Mod as a penalty to attack.[/indent]

How long does this penalty last? Also until the beginning of your next turn just like the zone? That's probably what you intended, but I think you should probably say so anyways just for clarity.

Aura of Menace: Whenever you reduce an enemy to 0 hit points, you emit zone 1 until the beginning of your next turn. Enemies within the zone take a -1 to attack rolls. This is a Fear effect.
-11th Level: -2 penalty to attack rolls.
-21th Level: -3 penalty to attack rolls.

I'm not sure I like that this scales. My general area of expertise is actually in races and not classes, but one thing that always bugs me is when somebody scales an attack bonus or penalty needlessly. Giving somebody else a +1 bonus to attack really is about as useful at first level as it will be at 30th level, and giving somebody a -1 penalty to attack really is also about as useful 30th level as it was at 1st level. With this in mind, I suggest making this a fixed penalty of -2.

Great Throw:When using heavy thrown weapons you ignore range penalties.

But I might additionally specify that range limitations are not ignored due to this.

I'll take a look at some powers and stuff later, but right now I'm off to have dinner so I can go meet my friends for the Transformer premier. :P
#8

Johnathan_Vagabond

Jun 24, 2009 9:09:01
For the purposes of this thread, I'm going to go ahead and put aside the fact that I think this is a terrible idea from a conceptual point of view and that I'd never play it or allow it into one of my games. I recognize that this isn't the place to debate whether a Martial Controller is a good or bad idea, so I won't tell you that it isn't. So now that I've got that out of the way...

It was the 'I love you' in the other thread that did it, isn't it. ISN'T IT! (I'm sorry, I don't really love you, I lied to make you look at my class. I feel so dirty...)

I've noticed a lot of your powers have the "Implement" keyword. However, you seem to have given this class no implement proficiencies at all. Furthermore, is it really appropriate for a martial class that isn't supposed to be using magic to actually employ implements? I see where you're going with the idea, because you're wanting to attack NADs and sometimes the attack is based off of intimidation rather than actually having anything at all to do with a weapon, but if that's how you're going to work it, I really think you need to clear up exactly how you want this to work. In the end, would you be willing to come up with another accessory keyword entirely? One that is neither a weapon nor an implement? Alternatively, such attacks could simply have neither keyword and just gain a +1 bonus to hit a NAD per 5 levels or whatever (of course then you wouldn't be able to apply any special weapon or implement powers or properties to them)... Actually, it looks like maybe you did that but forgot to remove the Implement keyword from some powers?

Well, a while back I had a weapon implement keyword. You got the enhancements of the weapon, but not the proficiencies. Then I went back at the behest of reviewers and scratched it. I thought I'd gotten all the implement keywords out, but I guess not.

How long does this penalty last? Also until the beginning of your next turn just like the zone? That's probably what you intended, but I think you should probably say so anyways just for clarity.

Yes, it's supposed to last until the beginning of your next turn, I'll add that to clarify.

I'm not sure I like that this scales. My general area of expertise is actually in races and not classes, but one thing that always bugs me is when somebody scales an attack bonus or penalty needlessly. Giving somebody else a +1 bonus to attack really is about as useful at first level as it will be at 30th level, and giving somebody a -1 penalty to attack really is also about as useful 30th level as it was at 1st level. With this in mind, I suggest making this a fixed penalty of -2.

I was under the impression that monsters scaled faster than PCs. I'm not sure when I came under the impression, or who dropped that impression on me, but that's why I let it scale.

But I might additionally specify that range limitations are not ignored due to this.

I suppose range limitations could qualify as a 'penalty'. I'll clarify.
#9

Dionon

Jun 25, 2009 3:32:17
Soooooooooooooooooo..... PDF... what?
#10

Qube

Jun 25, 2009 6:17:59
looks like a fun class

no picture of a dragonborn? I would think they go perfect for this class ...



dread strike: "Attack Type: Melee or Heavy Thrown" ? I would expect standard action, free action, ...
Gut Shot: "slowed (save-ends)." normally, encounter powers only effect 1 round
Scattering Roar: what if you miss? (it is a daily ...)
Living Shield: "Move the target between you and your attacker" who's the target?
#11

Johnathan_Vagabond

Jun 25, 2009 8:48:02
looks like a fun class

no picture of a dragonborn? I would think they go perfect for this class ...



dread strike: "Attack Type: Melee or Heavy Thrown" ? I would expect standard action, free action, ...

I set all of the powers up when I was fairly new to power stat blocks. Going back to redo them all properly gives me the shakes.

Gut Shot: "slowed (save-ends)." normally, encounter powers only effect 1 round

Encounter powers usually do more damage as well, but this is a mere Strength modifier. I think it balances out.

Scattering Roar: what if you miss? (it is a daily ...)

The other 1st level dailies don't have miss effects either (threatening roar only sustains the penalty, not the attack.) If you think it's too underpowered, I could see it being a Push 1 on a miss.

Living Shield: "Move the target between you and your attacker" who's the target?

That is pretty poorly worded. I'll go back through it and edit the text.

Soooooooooooooooooo..... PDF... what?

Ekio has offered to turn the Dreadnought into a PDF, which I have promised to take him up on once I feel the class is fully balanced and properly formatted (which means eventually going back and actually doing the power-blocks right.

Sigh Stupid formating.
#12

Crimson_Concerto

Jun 25, 2009 17:18:50
The other 1st level dailies don't have miss effects either (threatening roar only sustains the penalty, not the attack.) If you think it's too underpowered, I could see it being a Push 1 on a miss.

The number of daily class powers that don't anything at all if you miss is very small. The vast, vast majority of daily class powers either have a "Miss" line, an "Effect" line, or the "Reliable" keyword.
#13

Johnathan_Vagabond

Jul 01, 2009 14:13:16
I'm not sure how, but I completely missed your response. I apologize for not seeing it and acting on it.

I will steer back through and drop a couple miss/reliable/effect functions.

EDIT: Effects, Miss Clauses, and Reliable Keywords added.
#14

Johnathan_Vagabond

Jul 16, 2009 10:33:51
Guurin scrambled through the forest, "Oh gods, my side!" He collapses up against a tree, clutching the bleeding wound. "Pelor father of mercy heal me. Melora mother of forests hide me." Neither were inclined to answer apparently. Side slicked with blood he pressed on, ignorant of the dripping crimson trail he left. Another twenty feet before he collapsed again, into a berry bush. Tucking his legs in Guuring curled up and hid, tying off a bandage on his leaking wound. He cursed as he noticed the bright crimson drops and noted his trail. Leaning his weight on the bush he propped himself up, drawing hiw short sword with the other hand.

There it was, a humanoid shape in the midst of the forest, following his over eager trail. It closed on him within minutes. Distraut, he looked upon the features of a man both entirely plain and overwhelmingly sinister. He cocked his head to one side, "Still bleeding to death? Good good, though I'd have though you'd have bandaged it by now, since I obviously missed your organs." A long light howl rode the wind, "Well, you'll have company soon enough friend." His eye's were a shade too dark.

"Ay, well this forest holds more than wolfkin, murderer. You'll find them plenty soon enough." Guuring was beginning to feel cold.

"Murderer? I see you've retained your sense of humor. Good good, you will need it in the otherworld won't you." The leather clad pursuer climbed to a low branch and sat, "You don't mind if I stay to watch do you? Good good, I'll give you pointers so you don't die too soon."

Guurin spat at the man "Ay murderer! No honorable man would fight as you, without honor there is no righteousness in battle, only a murder!"

"So... no pointers then? Good good, just as well. I don't think it would have helped." Removing the hard skullcap from his disagreeable head, he continued, "I think it's very noble, your honorable combat. Very noble and very convenient. You seem to think that ritualizing the fight makes it less barbaric, less murderous. But, then again, maybe if you couldn't lie to yourself about it you'd never stand up for what you believed in, eh? Good good, just as well."

Guurin opened his mouth to protest but the long howl was closer now. "Oh my, yes they are close aren't they. I know you didn't want a tip but here's one, just for free. Wolves depend very much on their nose. A good strike there will greatly..." Guurin interrupted.

"Silence you uncivilized barbarian!" Exasperated, his blood flowed faster for his strained yell.

The pursuer, who he could now see was actually rather short, hung his leather cap from a nearby sprig while his feet dangled a good six feet from the ground. "You are a most convenient creature. Your silly honor makes it easy to cut you deep and at the same time, your stubborn close-mindedness makes it easy for me to not intervene against death on your behalf. You are dangerously close to making me enjoy it."

The wolves tore Guurin apart, while the unpleasant man watched with keen interest, muttering "good good" the whole time.



I've added a new class build, the Sinister Dreadnought. Not so tough nor manic as the others, but keenly intelligent and meticulous in his intimidation.

I'll add more powers specifically for him (I've already added a few) later.
#15

Chimerasame

Jul 17, 2009 0:57:21
Sinister Dreadnought: Enemies within your Aura of Menace are considered bloodied.

This is a peculiar ability... while it's true that many PC abilities work better against bloodied monsters, there are also some PC abilities that work better against non-bloodied ones, and furthermore there are a number of monsters which get stronger when they become bloodied (or let loose an instantaneous ability, like dragons...)

I could see an ability like, "Your allies may consider enemies within your Aura of Menace to be bloodied, even if they are not." I'm not sure offhand how powerful that would be. It strikes me as very situational given the rest of the party's makeup. Certain PCs gain advantages, but I think it doesn't affect most builds?

I do like the class on the whole, though.
#16

tcg_researcher

Jul 17, 2009 1:34:26
Just looking at the class features:

Is Sinister Dreadnought a Str/Int/Con build instead of Str/Cha/Con or Str/Con/Cha?

Your Aura of Menace only works when you kill an enemy, and produces a zone 1 effect that lasts for 1 round? This is a highly underwhelming class feature. Consider: you are not a Striker, not all enemies will be in melee, and those that are have a heavy disincentive to attack you due to your high AC and any Strikers or Defenders in the party being more tempting targets. I predict this feature activating upon less than 1/5 of enemy deaths. At least the Warlock's Pact Boon triggers off anyone killing the monster, not just him...and he's a Striker, killing things is his job.

I suppose you could try killing minions every turn, despite having no multiattacking at-wills...but what happens when all the minions are dead?

Why does the class get incentives to use heavy thrown weapons...but no proficiencies? Improvised weapons should be a last resort, any adventurer worth their exp ought to be able to afford the real thing.

Just glancing through the At-Wills, I already see a major problem with Crackin' Heads. First, what happens if you hit one target and miss the other? Second, a slide is in any direction; technically, I could hit two enemies, slide them around the battlefield, then push them 'adjacent' off a cliff 20 squares away.

Elves and Eladrin don't get a bonus to Str, Con, or Cha, and yet they get feats? What, no love for the non-PHB races?
#17

pluisjen

Jul 17, 2009 2:34:06
Anatomy: If you have succeeded on a monster knowledge check against the target this encounter, this power's effect ends one turn later than normal (If you hit with save-ends power, it instead ends on the turn following the save. If you hit with a turn that ends at the beginning or end of your next turn it ends on the turn following that).

When exactly do you succeed on a Monster Knowledge check? Some of them have a lot of different DC's for different information, do you need the top one, the bottom one, the middle one?
#18

Chimerasame

Jul 17, 2009 2:57:40
Elves and Eladrin don't get a bonus to Str, Con, or Cha, and yet they get feats? What, no love for the non-PHB races?

I actually think that, unless you expressly want a race to be specifically gimped for a particular class, there should be at least 1 feat that's a bit overpowered for any race with no (or few) stat matchups.

For example, I'd put Eladrin Warrior into that category. Group Quarry isn't bad either, although it's not as good as I originally hoped when I created my half-elf ranger.

I've been developing a rather different kind of martial controller myself; sort of a gladiator/alchemist/archer/batman type, and I'm pretty sure it'll be str/dex/int when I get it complete. However, I want dwarves to be fairly capable at it, so I'm also planning on putting in a feat that boosts dwarves' power with one of the class's paths.
#19

Johnathan_Vagabond

Jul 17, 2009 9:03:11
Just looking at the class features:

Is Sinister Dreadnought a Str/Int/Con build instead of Str/Cha/Con or Str/Con/Cha?

Yes, I noticed that I'd made mention of the Dreadnought intentionally using psychological warfare against it's enemies, but included no 'smart' dreadnought build.

Your Aura of Menace only works when you kill an enemy, and produces a zone 1 effect that lasts for 1 round? This is a highly underwhelming class feature.

Indeed, I don't think it's going to trigger all together often. But, the dreadnought has a number of 'multi-attacking' powers, even if they don't have separate attack rolls (Cull the Weak only needs you to hit 1 target to deal damage to all 3). Also, thanks to the class features (perhaps aside from the Sinister dreadnought as written) make the Aura of Menace going off a 'big event' as it were. When the roaring dreadnought kills and enemy, every enemy on the field will take an attack penalty. When the Inexorable dreadnought kills and enemy, one enemy in a Close Burst 5 is going to take a massive penalty to attack. Unless of course they're immune to fear, which they can sort of fix with a feat.

Consider: you are not a Striker, not all enemies will be in melee, and those that are have a heavy disincentive to attack you due to your high AC and any Strikers or Defenders in the party being more tempting targets.

Now, I don't necessarily think that the defender will automatically be a more inticing target. The dreadnought has fairly low hit points. Also, it does have a nominal number of ranged attack options (Heavy Thrown), to give them the benefit of range. A decent number of powers have the Melee Weapon or Heavy Thrown ranges, allowing the dreadnought some leeway in their choices.

I predict this feature activating upon less than 1/5 of enemy deaths. At least the Warlock's Pact Boon triggers off anyone killing the monster, not just him...and he's a Striker, killing things is his job.

I think that's pretty acceptable. I might have preferred 1 in 3, but 1 in 5 isn't so bad. The dreadnought is a controller, and I do believe many of his powers have strong control functions. Of course, I was following the lead of the wizard back then (waaaay back then, because he was the only controller), so it was sort of the example to set.

I suppose you could try killing minions every turn, despite having no multiattacking at-wills...but what happens when all the minions are dead?

You could try to divy them up, use the minions as a resource, but it's a risk. You can try to get the penalty every round, and risk being poked to death, or just let loose and clear shop. Cull the Weak may not multi-attack persay, but it multi-hits. Minions only ignore miss damage, not tertiary damage.

Why does the class get incentives to use heavy thrown weapons...but no proficiencies? Improvised weapons should be a last resort, any adventurer worth their exp ought to be able to afford the real thing.

Most heavy thrown weapons are also melee weapons. At least, they were when I last checked.

Just glancing through the At-Wills, I already see a major problem with Crackin' Heads. First, what happens if you hit one target and miss the other? Second, a slide is in any direction; technically, I could hit two enemies, slide them around the battlefield, then push them 'adjacent' off a cliff 20 squares away.

I suppose it could be interpreted that way. I've edited it for both clarity and simplicity. Now, if you miss the other target, it just takes Str damage Slide 1. If you end their Slide 1's adjacent to each other, they each take 1d6 damage. So it's the same total damage as before (1d6+Str), but incentivized to put them together.

Elves and Eladrin don't get a bonus to Str, Con, or Cha, and yet they get feats? What, no love for the non-PHB races?

I don't believe PHB 2 was out, or at least I don't think I owned it, when I wrote up the feats. I don't know the races of PHB 2 well enough to make feats for them yet.

I do worry that some of them are over strong or over-weak. Like dwarves always getting a Push 1 with heavy thrown Dreadnought powers.
#20

Johnathan_Vagabond

Jul 17, 2009 9:05:13
Anatomy: If you have succeeded on a monster knowledge check against the target this encounter, this power's effect ends one turn later than normal (If you hit with save-ends power, it instead ends on the turn following the save. If you hit with a turn that ends at the beginning or end of your next turn it ends on the turn following that).

When exactly do you succeed on a Monster Knowledge check? Some of them have a lot of different DC's for different information, do you need the top one, the bottom one, the middle one?

At first I thought you literally meant "when", which is covered in the wording as "this encounter". But I see that you mean to what degree, which is a terrific question. Largely because I hadn't even considered it.

When indeed. I'm not sure. That might need some rewriting. Perhaps the... hmm. That's a tough one. I'd love to hear suggestions from anyone, and at the same time I'll be milling over how to handle it for both playability and time management.

This is a peculiar ability... while it's true that many PC abilities work better against bloodied monsters, there are also some PC abilities that work better against non-bloodied ones, and furthermore there are a number of monsters which get stronger when they become bloodied (or let loose an instantaneous ability, like dragons...)

I could see an ability like, "Your allies may consider enemies within your Aura of Menace to be bloodied, even if they are not." I'm not sure offhand how powerful that would be. It strikes me as very situational given the rest of the party's makeup. Certain PCs gain advantages, but I think it doesn't affect most builds?

I do like the class on the whole, though.

Well, that's a good point. I wouldn't want the enemy getting bonuses. So yes, that's good wording. "You and your allies may consider etc etc..." Although looking at it, the sinister Aura of Menace doesn't have quite the same punch as the inexorable and roaring auras do. Maybe something different entirely. Maybe make the Aura of Menace penalty a save-ends effect for those caught within it. Or for up to Int Creatures within a Close Burst 3 or 5 or 7...

It's food for thinkering.
#21

tcg_researcher

Jul 18, 2009 0:21:39
Also, thanks to the class features (perhaps aside from the Sinister dreadnought as written) make the Aura of Menace going off a 'big event' as it were. When the roaring dreadnought kills and enemy, every enemy on the field will take an attack penalty.

At heroic, it's every enemy within ~5 squares, which is not hard for ranged enemies to avoid, and it's a -1 for a turn. Eh, they'll live. The power starts getting good at Paragon tier, though.

Now, I don't necessarily think that the defender will automatically be a more inticing target. The dreadnought has fairly low hit points. Also, it does have a nominal number of ranged attack options (Heavy Thrown), to give them the benefit of range. A decent number of powers have the Melee Weapon or Heavy Thrown ranges, allowing the dreadnought some leeway in their choices.

The dreadnought does not have "low hit points" - he uses the 12/5/7 progression, which is vastly superior to other Controllers, better than the average Striker, and on par with the average Leader. Add in the Con bonuses he will undoubtedly have and you have a quite respectable hit point total for a frontliner. Also, the Defender is punishing marks with an automatic -2 hit for ignoring him.

Most heavy thrown weapons are also melee weapons. At least, they were when I last checked.

Right, my mistake.
#22

Johnathan_Vagabond

Jul 19, 2009 13:12:29
At heroic, it's every enemy within ~5 squares, which is not hard for ranged enemies to avoid, and it's a -1 for a turn. Eh, they'll live. The power starts getting good at Paragon tier, though.

Well, it used to scale at 1/tier (you can pick up a feat for an extra -1 to attack (for a minus 2 (I've used three parentheses in one sentence, the end of this sentence will look exceptionally funny.).).)

The dreadnought does not have "low hit points" - he uses the 12/5/7 progression, which is vastly superior to other Controllers, better than the average Striker, and on par with the average Leader. Add in the Con bonuses he will undoubtedly have and you have a quite respectable hit point total for a frontliner. Also, the Defender is punishing marks with an automatic 2 hit for ignoring him.

I can drop the healing surge numbers down 5, if you think that would help. However, I think it's entirely natural for the dreadnought to have higher hitpoints than any other controller, they've all got range to hide behind. The dreadnought is almost entirely a melee class. It'd be pretty silly to run him in there with a 10/4 hit points setting.

Of course, it's the defender's job to make himself an enticing target. So, I'm actually not sure what's wrong.

Right, my mistake.

It's ok. Having never made a mistake I can't say I understand, but my unrivaled beneficence allows me to forgive you. This once.
#23

pigfiend

Dec 23, 2009 22:43:59
I really like the idea of a martial controller who uses fear and gritty combat, and I like the name Dreadnought. I don't particularly like the execution of the class, though. Its role feels unfocused, and in some cases it seems like too much reinvention of the wheel.

Examining his powers, it looks like he has thrown weapon attacks, unarmed attacks that frequently batter enemies into different positions, and close attacks with the fear keyword. I'd give each build a little trait associated with each facet. So maybe one suffers no range penalties for thrown weapon attacks, for example.

My take on the Dreadnought would be to make him have a standardly sized Aura of Menace (maybe 3) that didn't have to be activated by dropping an enemy. Then I'd mostly stick a theme to powers by usage, like most encounter powers are single target controller attacks with a bonus effect within your aura of menace. So one encounter power might be a str ranged weapon attack with the fear keyword. It'd deal [W] + strength modifier damage to the target and then push each enemy within your aura of menace 1 square. However, if you're a Roaring Dreadnought, you instead push them a number of squares equal to your charisma bonus.
Conversely, a lot of daily powers could alter your Aura of Menace as an hit-or-miss effect. So one might increase the size of your aura by 2. Or another might make enemies within your aura suffer a -1 penalty to defenses.

If you handled the fear blasts and bursts as secondary effects of strength-based weapon attacks, you could simplify away from cha+2 attacks. Similarly, the "unarmed" attacks should be like Furious Smash, I think. It's less finnicky than a bonus that scales +2/+4/+6, and your magic weapon will have more opportunities to be meaningful, including chances to use its daily/encounter ability.

When you scale up the damage of the weapon attacks, I might handle it like the way the Seeker, another weapon-based controller, is made, dealing [W] + strength modifier damage and 1d6 additional psychic damage - that kind of thing.