I'm looking for some help with balance, so suggestions on numbers for damage/effects would be great, especially with the major class features, ie traps and rapid action. Traps are a unique type of control used to hinder enemy movement. Rapid Action is an ability that gives scouts the ability to replace their standard action with several minor actions (most of their at-wills are minor actions) which helps them to get out traps more quickly, and to make up for a lack of at-will AoE attacks. There's no precedent for features like this, so naturally there's alot to consider.
Thanks in advance.
EDIT: Corrected traps to trigger when any creature steps on them, not just enemies. Thanks to GeneralHenry for finding this error.
EDIT: Traps are disabled when triggered, not destroyed. This improves realism, balance, and adds an additional element of play. Clarified powers text and added these changes. Enabled forced movement as a trigger for traps. Thanks to SlivernyFalseEye for these suggestions. Increased maximum placed traps to 12/4 from 9/3.
EDIT: Added powers up through level 6. I'd love ideas for more if anyone has em.
EDIT: Changed the penalty for attacking the same target more than once with rapid action to a scaling -4 from a static -5 due to concerns with damage per round. Also, replaced "long rest" with "extended rest" which is the proper term, and clarified Power Slide. Thanks to Shivafang for these suggestions.
SCOUT
"Thought you had me on the run? I had this whole trail mapped and trapped before you even knew even knew there was a fight on."
CLASS TRAITS
Role: Controller. You lay lethal traps for your foes, or you can fire a volley of bolts at your them to keep the off guard.
Power Source: Martial. Your lifetime of experience moving swiftly, stealthily, and manipulating the environment gives you the edge over your opponents.
Key Abilities: Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged.
Implement: Trapper's Kit
Bonus Defense: +1 Reflex, +1 Fortitude
Hit Points at 1st Level: 12+ Constitution Score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 4
Healing Surges per Day: 6+ Constitution Modifier
Trained Skills: From the class skills list below choose 4 trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha) Dungeoneering (Wis), Endurance (Con), Heal (Wis), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Nature (Wis), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Thievery (Dex)
Build Options: Ensnaring Scout, Strafing Scout
Class Features: Scout Tactics, Readied Mobility, Rapid Action
Scouts are the best in the business when it comes to outsmarting, outplanning, and outmaneuvering an opponent. Whether they work with their allies to execute a cunning surprise attack or driving their foes into a lethal trap, the scout always makes sure he has the upper hand.
CREATING A SCOUT
Scouts rely on Dexterity for their ranged attacks and intelligence to design their traps. Wisdom effects a scout's ability to think quickly and plan ahead, and effects all builds.
Ensnaring Scout
The effectiveness of your traps is based on your intelligence, so that should be your primary score, followed by wisdom, which allows you to place more minor traps per turn. Dexterity is a good tertiary skill, as it allows you to use your crossbow attacks to excellent effect.
Strafing Scout
You specialize in rapid-fire attacks with your crossbow, so dexterity is your most important skill, followed by wisdom, which allows you to make extra attacks each turn. Intelligence allows you to dabble in trapping.
SCOUT CLASS FEATURES
Traps
You can carry a trapper's kit, which you can equip into an off-hand. It acts as an implement for your trap powers, and like other implements, it adds its enchantment bonus to your powers with the implement keyword, and will often give you access to extra at-will powers. You must wield a trapper's kit to use trap powers.
You can have a limited number of traps in play at once: 12 minor action traps and 4 standard action traps. However, traps last indefinitely until they are removed by you while you are adjacent with a minor action. If you remove a daily trap power, it is not expended, but cannot be replaced until you take a short rest. If you take an extended rest, you may remove any traps still outstanding, as it is assumed that during this time you can recreate any traps you were unable to recover.
Traps cannot be placed in a square that already contains a trap. If the existing trap is yours, you may remove it as a free action when you place a trap in that square, or you may choose to not include the already trapped square in the new trap's area.
Some powers and effects allow you to move traps. In this case, you must move them to a space legal to place that trap.
When a trap has been expended, it becomes disabled, and must be removed or reset. Resetting a trap is also a minor action or a standard action, depending on which action that trap requires to set. You cannot reset traps created by daily or encounter powers.
Scout Tactics
Your choice of tactics determines how well you can trap and shoot. Chose one of the following tactics, either Trap Mastery or Strafe:
--Trap Mastery-- You are immune to the effects of your own traps, and do not cause them to trigger. As an immediate interrupt triggered by enemy movement, you can move one trap you created one square if that movement causes the enemy to move into the trap's range. You can do this a number of times per encounter equal to your wisdom modifier.
--Strafe-- You can take minor actions at any time during a movement action. As a minor action, you can ready a minor action. Using a readied minor action is a free action.
Readied Mobility
Whenever you enter a square of difficult terrain, roll a d20 with your wisdom modifier as a bonus. On a 10 or higher, you ignore the difficult terrain. If you fail the check, you may redo your movement
Rapid Action
Instead of a standard action, you may take a number of minor actions equal to your wisdom modifier. If you attack a target you have already attacked this round, you take a -4 penalty to attack rolls against that target for each attack you've made against the target so far this round, so your second attack gets -4, your third gets -8 and so on. This does not apply to attacks made by your traps.
CLASS POWERS
At-Will
Caltrops Scout At-Will 1
A handful of small metal spikes hinder enemy movement.
At-Will * Martial, Implement, Trap
Minor Action Close Blast 1
Effect: You place a trap in the targeted square.
Trigger: A creature moves into the trapped square.
Attack: Intelligence vs Fortitude
Hit: 1d6 + Int damage, and target is slowed until the end of its next turn and this trap is disabled.
Crippling Shot Scout At-Will 1
It was only a flesh-wound. Keyword: was.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Ranged weapon
Attack: Dexterity vs AC
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow
Hit: 1[W] + Dex damage. If the target moves without shifting before the end of your next turn it takes extra damage equal to your wisdom modifier.
Tripwire Scout At-Will 1
A thin, nearly invisible strand of wire trips an enemy.
At-Will * Martial, Implement, Trap
Minor Action Close Blast 1
Effect: You place a trap in the targeted square.
Trigger: A creature moves into the trapped square.
Attack: Intelligence vs Reflex
Hit: Int damage, the target stops its movement, yields combat advantage until the end of its next turn, and this trap is disabled. If the target was running or charging, or on a crit, it is knocked prone.
Cover Fire Scout At-Will 1
Bolts sail from the air, forcing the enemy to focus on defense.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Minor Action Ranged weapon
Attack: Dexterity Vs AC
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow
Hit: (1[W] + Dex) / 2 damage, Target takes a -2 penalty to attacks until the end of your next turn.
Choke Bomb Scout At-Will 1
Noxious smoke pours forth when this small ceramic sphere is broken.
At-Will * Martial, Implement, Trap, Poison, Zone
Standard Action Close Blast 1
Effect: You place a trap in the targeted square.
Trigger: A creature moves into the trapped square.
Effect: The triggering creature's movement stops. The trap creates a burst 1 zone of poison gas which lasts until the end of the triggering creature's next turn and is disabled. Any creature that enters this zone is subject to an attack:
Attack: Intelligence vs Fortitude
Hit: Int poison damage, and the target is slowed.
Grazing Bolt Scout At-Will 1
You nick a foe with a bolt, not to wound him, but to make him go where you want him to.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Minor Action Ranged weapon
Attack: Dexterity Vs AC
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow
Hit: (1[W] + Dex) / 2 damage, slide the target 1 square.
Encounter Powers
Staking Shot Scout Encounter 1
You affix a foe to the ground by driving a bolt through an opponent's foot, tail, or... whatever.
Encounter * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Ranged weapon
Attack: Dexterity vs AC
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow
Hit: 1[W] + Dex damage. Target is immobilized until the end of your next turn.
Ball Bearings Scout Encounter 1
Handfuls of smooth metal spheres litter the ground, making passage difficult.
Encounter * Martial, Trap
Standard Action Close Blast 3
Effect: You place a trap in the targeted squares. The trapped squares are difficult terrain.
Trigger: A creature is pushed, pulled, or slid into the trapped square.
Attack: Intelligence vs Reflex
Hit: Int damage, the target is knocked prone. This does not disable this trap
Split Shot Scout Encounter 1
You load several bolts onto your crossbow and fire them all at once. I'm pretty sure that voids your warranty.
Encounter * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Close Blast 5
Targets: a number of creatures in the burst up to your wisdom modifier
Attack: Dexterity vs AC, one attack per target.
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow
Hit: 1[W] + Dex damage.
Lure Scout Encounter 1
A tantalizing object, meat perhaps, or an open coin-purse, depending on the prey.
Encounter * Martial, Implement, Trap
Minor Action Close Blast 1
Effect: You place a trap in the targeted square. If an enemy is within 5 squares of this trap at the start of its turn, the trap makes the following attack against it. If an enemy moves into the effected square, the trap is disabled.
Attack: Intelligence-2 vs Will
Hit: The target takes its move action to move its speed towards the trap.
Special: if you've succeeded in a knowledge check against the target or creatures of the same type this day, ignore the -2 penalty to hit.
Daily Powers
Snare Scout Daily 1
A length of rope set to tighten around a foe's feet and hoist him high into the air.
Daily * Martial, Implement, Trap
Standard Action Close Blast 1
Effect: You place a trap in the targeted square.
Trigger: A creature moves into the trapped square.
Attack: Intelligence vs Reflex
Hit: The target is grabbed (escape ends) and is pulled to the ceiling. When the target escapes, the trap is disabled, and the target falls to the ground taking normal falling damage plus your Intelligence modifier.
Special: This trap must be placed in a square with a solid static object, such as a tree branch, ceiling, archway, etc is between 10 and 20 feet above the ground.
Harpoon Scout Daily 1
A barbed bolt with a wire tether allows you to reel in a hapless foe.
Daily * Martial, Weapon
standard Action Ranged weapon
Attack: Dexterity vs AC
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow
Hit: 1[W] + Dex damage. Target is tethered (escape ends, as if grabbed). While tethered, the target cannot move further away from you. While an enemy is tethered, you can use the following attack against it as a minor action.
-Attack: Dexterity vs Fortitude
-Hit: Dex Damage, Pull the target towards you one space. If you are at a different elevation, this power can change the target's elevation if doing so is the only legal way to perform a pull.
Alchemical Tripmine Scout Daily 1
A special mixture of earthen elements and charcoal combine to form this lethal device.
Daily * Martial, Implement, Trap, Fire
Standard Action Close Blast 1
Effect: You place a trap in the targeted square.
Trigger: A creature moves into the trapped square.
Close Burst 2, all creatures in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs Fortitude
Hit: 2d6 + Int fire damage, and the target is pushed 2 squares and knocked prone.
Miss: 1d6 fire + Int damage, target is pushed 1 square and is not knocked prone.
Effect: This trap is disabled.
Grounding Bolt Scout Daily 1
Lead weights add kick to this attack, and is heavy enough to prevent an enemy from getting off the ground.
Daily * Martial, Weapon
standard Action Ranged weapon
Attack: Dexterity vs AC
Hit: 2[W] + Dex damage. If the target is flying, the target crashes. The target is dazed and cannot fly or jump (Save ends) Aftereffect: the target cannot fly or jump (save ends)
Level 2 Utility Powers
Move Trap Scout Utility 2
You realize you could have done that better.
At-Will * Martial
minor or standard Action Melee Touch
Target: One Trap you set.
Effect: Move the trap to a space adjacent to you
Special: This utility is a minor action when moving a trap that was a minor action to set, or a standard action to move a trap that was a standard action to set.
Hunter's Lore Scout Utility 2
I recognize that beast! Tastes great with rosemary and dill.
Encounter * Martial
Minor Action Ranged 10
Target: One natural beast you can see
Effect: Roll a knowledge check against the target with a +5 power bonus. If successful, you gain +2 to attacks as a power bonus against the target until the end of your next turn.
Wait For It Scout Utility 2
Not yet...
Encounter * Martial
Immediate Interrupt Range 5
Trigger: a creature triggers a trap you set in range
Effect: The trap does not trigger.
Trailblazer Scout Utility 2
Follow you? Through what?
Daily * Martial
Move Action Personal
Effect: Move your speed, ignoring difficult terrain. Squares of difficult terrain you move through during this action are no longer considered difficult terrain for you or your allies.
Rearm Scout Utility 2
What are you doing, we just turned that OFF!
Encounter * Martial
Standard Action Melee Touch
Target: One disabled hostile trap
Effect: Reactivate the trap. You have a +4 power bonus to defenses against this trap.
FEATS
Heroic
Big Hands-
Requirement: Scout, Gnome or Halfling
Crossbows, Repeating Crossbows, and Superior Crossbows have the small property.
Body Language-
Requirement: Scout, Trained in Nature
You do not receive a penalty for not speaking a common language when attempting to intimidate natural beasts.
Crossbow Modification-
Requirement: Scout
Your Repeating Crossbow Magazines hold 20 bolts, Superior Crossbows have brutal 1, Crossbows are one-handed weapons with versatile, and missed attacks made with hand crossbows do not break stealth.
Falconry-
Requirement: Scout
You can chose a pet from the following options: Owl, Falcon, Raven, Parrot, and Magpie. This pet is identical in function to familiars of the same type, but is a real creature.
Natural Ritualist-
Requirement: Scout, Trained in Nature
You can master and perform rituals with the key skill nature as if you had the ritual caster feat. During an extended rest, as a part of the extended rest, if you are in a natural environment, you can take one hour to obtain an amount if rare herbs with a value of (4d4 x your level) as long as you've hit at least one milestone during the prior day.
Level 3 Encounter Powers
Bear Trap Scout Encounter 3
The snap of steel jaws locking shut, the crunch of flesh and bone giving way, and a visceral howl of pain.
Encounter * Martial, Implement, Trap
Standard Action Close Blast 1
Effect: You place a trap in the targeted square.
Trigger: A creature moves into the trapped square.
Attack: Intelligence vs Reflex
Hit: 1d10 + Int damage, and the target is immobilized until the trap is disabled. If the target is more than 1 square away from the trapped square, the trap is disabled. If this occurs during a push, pull, or slide, the target takes an additional 1d10 damage and is slowed (save ends)
Barrage Scout Encounter 3
Even firing wildly, you have a moment of clarity. Inhale, aim, exhale, fire... and repeat.
Encounter * Martial, Weapon
Minor Action Ranged weapon
Attack: Dexterity vs AC
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow
Hit: 1[W] + Dex damage.
Effect: Until the end of this turn, you may repeat this attack once as a minor action
Strafe: Until the end of this turn, you may repeat this attack twice as a minor action
Razorwire Scout Encounter 3
A thin veil of barbed wire crosses this path, tangling and cutting several enemies as they struggle to stand.
Encounter * Martial, Implement, Trap
Standard Action
Effect: Move your speed -2. During this move, place a trap in a number of squares you are adjacent to equal to your movespeed -2. The trapped squares must be contiguous to each other.
Trigger: A creature moves into a trapped square.
Attack: Intelligence vs Reflex
Hit: 1d8 + Int damage, the target is knocked prone, and this trap is disabled in this square only. If the target tries to stand up, it and any other creatures effected by this trap takes damage equal to your Intelligence modifier. Save ends this effect.
Trap Mastery: Move your speed, and the trapped area is equal to your movepseed.
Special: If you are allowed to move this trap, you may move each square of the trap the allowed distance, and every square must remain contiguous.
Disarming Shot Scout Encounter 3
Your carefully aimed bolt knocks an opponent's weapon from his hand, and sends it clattering across the room.
Encounter * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Ranged weapon
Attack: Dexterity vs AC
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow
Hit: 1[W] + Dex damage. The target drops any weapons it is wielding, and you slide those weapons a number of squares equal to two times your wisdom modifier. The target may not use any attacks with the weapon keyword. The target may end this effect by using a minor action while occupying the same square his lost weapon.
Level 5 Daily Powers
Focus Fire Scout Daily 5
You catch your foe totally off guard, and fill his body with countless bolts.
Daily * Martial, Weapon
Minor Action Ranged weapon
Attack: Dexterity vs AC
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow
Hit: 1[W] + Dex damage. Until the end of this turn, you ignore the -5 penalty for attacking this target again.
Triggered Collapse Scout Daily 5
You find a weakness in the structure of a wall, or in the rocks off a cliffside, and you rig it to fall.
Daily * Martial, Implement, Trap
Standard Action Close Blast 1
Effect: You place a trap in the targeted square.
Trigger: A creature moves adjacent to the trapped square.
Close Blast 3 including triggering creature, all creatures in blast
Attack: Intelligence vs Reflex
Hit: 2d8 + Int damage, and the target is knocked prone. It cannot stand and takes 5 ongoing damage (save ends both).
Miss: Slide target to the nearest square outside the blast.
Effect: This trap is disabled. All squares in blast are difficult terrain. The trapped square is passable but difficult terrain as well.
Special: This trap must be placed in a square containing a wall or cliffside.
Concealed Pitfall Scout Daily 5
Foliage, dirt, canvas... a seemingly harmless pile of clutter disguises a natural hazard.
Daily * Martial, Trap
Standard Action Close Blast 2
Effect: You place a trap in the targeted squares. When placed over a pit, cliffside, or other drop, squares that include this trap appears to be level terrain.
Trigger: A creature moves adjacent to the trapped square would fall.
Attack: Intelligence vs Reflex
Hit: The target takes an additional 1d10 damage from the fall, and cannot make an acrobatics check to reduce fall damage or prevent falling prone. If the target moved into the square due to a forced move, it cannot make a save to prevent falling.
Effect: This trap is disabled.
Twin Tether Scout Daily 5
Two barbed bolts tethered together bind two foes to each other.
Daily * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Ranged Weapon
Attack: Dexterity vs AC, Two Targets
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow
Hit: 1[W] + Dex damage. The targets are tethered to each other (escape ends, as if grabbed by each other). While tethered, the targets cannot move further away from each other. If one of the targets is pushed, pulled, or slid further from the other target, the other target is pulled towards the first target the same number of squares, and both targets take 5 damage. When a target attempts to escape, the other target takes 5 damage.
Level 6 Utility Powers
Trigger Trap Scout Utility 6
Now!
Encounter * Martial
Minor Action Range 5
Effect: A trap in range triggers.
Always Prepared Scout Utility 6
Surprised? Me? Are you kidding?
Daily * Martial
Free Action Personal
Trigger: You are surprised
You get one turn before the surprise round. You cannot use any powers that target an enemy during this turn. You do not yield combat advantage during the surprise round.
Hunter's Blind Scout Utility 6
That shrubbery? no, that was always there.
Daily * Martial, Trap
Standard Action Close Blast 2
Effect: You and your allies in effected squares have concealment. Enemies in effected squares are blinded. Effected squares block line of sight for all creatures not in an effected square.
Power Slide Scout Utility 6
You dive, and end your sprint with a controlled slide.
At-Will * Martial
Move Action Personal
Effect: Move up to your speed, and at least two squares, then lie down prone and you may shift a number of squares equal to your dexterity modifier. You can pass through enemy squares and difficult terrain during this shift. Until the end of your next turn, you do not take a penalty to ranged attacks for being prone.
You have a good start. I don't normally like the idea of a martial class using unique equipment to justify it's powers, but you've hit on an interesting way of doing it with the trap keyword. I particularly like the way they can 'move' a trap. ("ha! you thought my trap was there, actually, you just walked into it!")
how do non magical objects target only enemies?
Presumably the scout keeps his allies aprised of how to avoid his traps.
how do non magical objects target only enemies?
Presumably the scout keeps his allies aprised of how to avoid his traps.
Actually, I had intended to make traps trigger when any creature entered the space, not enemys specifically. For one thing, this mirrors the problem some other controllers have with friendly fire, and yes, it also makes sense as well, as they are simply physical objects.
The "Wait for it" utility power does help to alleviate this issue, at least in dire situations, but mostly a trap master will leave 1 space between his traps for his allies to manuver through, yet by using his ability to move the traps, still snare enemies. A strafing scout wouldn't have the same ability to move the traps, but would also probably have fewer traps around.
Making the change now.
I really like this idea. I think it's an excellent way to do a martial controller.
I don't get why you would go with Crossbows. They are not rapid-fire weapons. In D&D they are load-minor and in real life they're load standard at the least—some even require winches. I've seen comparisons that show bowmen getting 3 - 4 arrows off in the time it takes a crossbowman to load. I would suggest you require short bows, not crossbows.
I would recommend the Zone and Wall keywords. For example, caltrops could be reworded to:
Caltrops Scout At-Will 1
A handful of small metal spikes hinder enemy movement.
At-Will * Martial, Implement, Zone, Trap
Minor Action Close Blast 1
Effect: The blast creates a zone that lasts until the end of the encounter. The first time a creature starts its turn in or moves into the zone, make an attack. The square that triggers the attack is no longer part of the zone.
Attack: Intelligence vs Fortitude
Hit: 1d6 + Int damage, and target is slowed until the end of its next turn.
Also, half damage as a minor action is too powerful—it means you can do 1.5x the damage of another character. I'd suggest you make the trap powers minor actions and the bow powers standard.
In general, I think your power ideas are pretty good and your structure is great, but execution seems really odd. I would look to simplify them a bit. For example, it could be as easy as:
- When you take a move action, you can use a of scout powers equal to your wisdom modifier at any point during the move.
- Trap mastery: You are immune to your own traps. When you use a trap zone or wall power you can make one additional square adjacent to you also part of the trap.
- Strafe: When you run, you do not take the usual -5 penalty to attack rolls if you attack with a ranged weapon.
Also, I like this as an at-will
Cover Fire Scout At-Will 1
A quick blanket of arrows keeps the enemy at bay.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Ranged weapon
Attack: Dex - 1 vs AC
Hit: Dex modifier damage
Effect: Make the attack against up to three creatures within two squares of the target.
I really like this idea. I think it's an excellent way to do a martial controller.
I don't get why you would go with Crossbows. They are not rapid-fire weapons. In D&D they are load-minor and in real life they're load standard at the least—some even require winches. I've seen comparisons that show bowmen getting 3 - 4 arrows off in the time it takes a crossbowman to load. I would suggest you require short bows, not crossbows.
A few reasons. For one, I want to limit the damage they can deal, and crossbows don't go as high as bows (and I don't want people to feel they only have one option, ie: short bows, but no other kind) and the load minor issue is actually appealing to me. Remember that these guys have alot of minor actions to burn. Most dedicated strafers will go for the repeating crossbow early on, then switch to the superior crossbow with the speed loader feat later. Trappers will probably go with a hand crossbow (to keep a free hand open) or a basic crossbow with the Crossbow Mods feat to make it one handed.
Also, half damage as a minor action is too powerful—it means you can do 1.5x the damage of another character. I'd suggest you make the trap powers minor actions and the bow powers standard.
Keep in mind, he's a controller, so hitting several enemies per turn for smaller amounts of damage is his bag. He COULD target a given enemy twice, but he'd take a -5 penalty to each attack after the first, which is signifigant.
Some math, and comparisons.
A Razorclaw Shifter Strafing Scout's Cover Fire vs an Eladrin War Wizard's Scorching Burst
Assume the scout is 18 (20) dex and 14 (16) wis, while the wizard is 18 (20) Intel. The scout COULD go more wis, less dex to get more attacks, but his damage and attack would fall off signifigantly. Scout is using a repeating crossbow (1d8)
Enemies Attacked: Advantage Scout
Scout can attack 5 enemies, assuming he takes no move action and uses rapid action to turn his standard into 3 minors. The Wizard could theoretically hut as many as 9 enemies, but they'd have to be bunched together, and that doesn't happen often.
Attack: Advantage Scout
Scout gets +2 for the crossbow's proficiency bonus. This is sometimes negated by ranged attacks generally being easier to have cover against than area bursts.
Damage: Advanatage Wizard
Wizard does 1d6+5 damage to each enemy, on average 8.5 damage.
Scout does 1d8+5/2, so on average 4.75 damage per target. In other words, a major sacrifice in damage for increased accuracy, and to hit more guys.
EDIT: Probably a better comparison is to a power like the invoker's Hand of Radience, which hits 3 enemies without them being bunched. It deals 1d4+5 damage, so on average 7.5 per target versus the scout's 4.75. 4.75 * 5 = 23.75 while 7.5 * 3 = 22.5. Very close, overall, with the scout getting 1.25 more dpr than the Invoker by sacrificing his move action. If he does want to move on any given turn he'll wind up well below the Invoker.
If they class is planned around using minor actions to load the crossbow, then wont the magical crossbow from Adventurers vaul that can be loaded as a free action be too good compared to other options? The same reason you didn't want them to use bows? Allowing even shortbows too would be would be very flavorfull.
That and I detest anything that encourages the abomation that is the repeating crossbow.
I would still play this class in an instant if I could.
If they class is planned around using minor actions to load the crossbow, then wont the magical crossbow from Adventurers vaul that can be loaded as a free action be too good compared to other options? The same reason you didn't want them to use bows? Allowing even shortbows too would be would be very flavorfull.
That and I detest anything that encourages the abomation that is the repeating crossbow.
I would still play this class in an instant if I could.
Planned around? No. Taken into account? Yes.
To get around the load time issue you must either: use a hand crossbow or a repeating crossbow, use a crossbow with the swift shot enchantment, or take the speed loader feat. You could also just deal with the reload minor. All good options.
By and large I am vehemently opposed to Traps as a martial controller skill. But I think using the Trap Kit as an implement is quite brilliant and should let you get away with it, so long as the powers imply simple traps all the way up until Paragon. However, the problem I have is with the term "destroyed" in the trap power Effect line. Destroyed implies there's nothing salvagable following the traps triggering. As such, you won't be able to scavenge it for spare parts, meaning that either the bag eventually runs out of parts or its a bag of holding, neither of which leads to believability. So, here is my suggestion, which should be pretty easy to implement since you're fairly early on.
Tripwire Scout At-Will 1
A thin, nearly invisible strand of wire trips an enemy.
At-Will * Martial, Implement, Trap
Minor Action 1 Square within a Close Blast 1 (unless you mean to tripwire all 9 squares)
Effect: You place a trap in the targeted square.
Trigger: A creature moves through the trapped square.
Attack: Intelligence vs Reflex
Hit: Int damage, the target stops its movement, yields combat advantage until the end of its next turn, and the trap is disabled. If the target was running or charging, or on a crit, it is knocked prone.
This resolves my issues. 1) The trap is no longer destroyed, so you can salvage parts for your trap kit resolving the issue of 'running out over time'. 2) It more accurately resembles the events: You place a trap, someone moves through the trap, they trip, and the trap is disabled. Unless you want to create a permanent Zone 1 trip trap, this is the best solution. 3) I'm guessing you meant 1 square within a close blast 1. I have trouble seeing all 9 squares being trapped at Heroic. 4) The movement methods you mention (Walk, Run, Charge, Shift) are essentially all the normal movements that would bring you through the square. However, I don't see why Forced movement shouldn't trigger the effect. If you push someone against the stairs, they'll fall over. Also, from a balance perspective, I don't think allow forced movement to trigger your traps would be overpowered.
By and large I am vehemently opposed to Traps as a martial controller skill. But I think using the Trap Kit as an implement is quite brilliant and should let you get away with it, so long as the powers imply simple traps all the way up until Paragon. However, the problem I have is with the term "destroyed" in the trap power Effect line. Destroyed implies there's nothing salvagable following the traps triggering. As such, you won't be able to scavenge it for spare parts, meaning that either the bag eventually runs out of parts or its a bag of holding, neither of which leads to believability. So, here is my suggestion, which should be pretty easy to implement since you're fairly early on.
Tripwire Scout At-Will 1
A thin, nearly invisible strand of wire trips an enemy.
At-Will * Martial, Implement, Trap
Minor Action 1 Square within a Close Blast 1 (unless you mean to tripwire all 9 squares)
Effect: You place a trap in the targeted square.
Trigger: A creature moves through the trapped square.
Attack: Intelligence vs Reflex
Hit: Int damage, the target stops its movement, yields combat advantage until the end of its next turn, and the trap is disabled. If the target was running or charging, or on a crit, it is knocked prone.This resolves my issues. 1) The trap is no longer destroyed, so you can salvage parts for your trap kit resolving the issue of 'running out over time'. 2) It more accurately resembles the events: You place a trap, someone moves through the trap, they trip, and the trap is disabled. Unless you want to create a permanent Zone 1 trip trap, this is the best solution.
I like it. I'll make that change.
3) I'm guessing you meant 1 square within a close blast 1. I have trouble seeing all 9 squares being trapped at Heroic.
The intnetion was to only trap one square, and I had thought that was accomplished by that wording, since blasts are not measured in disnatnce from an origin, but rather, by the length of its sides.
I think I'm right. The compendium backs me up here:
A blast fills an area adjacent to you that is a specified number of squares on a side.
For example, the wizard power thunderwave is a Blast 3, which means the power affects a 3-square-by-3-square area adjacent to you.
4) The movement methods you mention (Walk, Run, Charge, Shift) are essentially all the normal movements that would bring you through the square. However, I don't see why Forced movement shouldn't trigger the effect. If you push someone against the stairs, they'll fall over. Also, from a balance perspective, I don't think allow forced movement to trigger your traps would be overpowered.
Makes sense to me: in fact, one concept in my head was a strafer who dabbles using readied grazing strikes to knock a moving enemy into a trap, so I did intend for this to work. I'll change that wording as well.
The intnetion was to only trap one square, and I had thought that was accomplished by that wording, since blasts are not measured in disnatnce from an origin, but rather, by the length of its sides.I think I'm right. The compendium backs me up here
I see, my mistake. I'm not used to seek Close Blasts of less than 2, so I skimmed right over the word Blast assuming it meant Burst.
In retrospect, WotC probably should have chosen words that didn't both begin with B. Maybe Blast and Spread.
Personaly i view forced movement in a situation with traps or other things ( a well, a hole, stairs etc ) that if you can do it to them, they can do it to you. If the monsters in the encounter make you forcefully move into the trapped square, the trap should go off on the PC if you have it do the same thing to a monster you forcefully move into a trap. The ability to warn allies of where traps are, should not come into effect if your forcefully moved into the square which is trapped. Though of course this comes down to rules as per DM. However, there are some other problems with forced movement. What if a PC makes the monster move 4 squares total, I move the monster threw 3 traps.
Do they all proc ? I hate forced movement for that, because then it just becomes cheese. Especialy since the scouts traps can "jump" one square.
OK, lets see...
> Scout/Traps
not a terribly orriginal idea, but hey, orginallity isn't really important.
> Rapid action
Seems like multiclass heaven? IIRC there is a wizard daily that allows you to cast magic missle as minor action, or sustaining powers, ...
KOBOLDS FTW (they can shift as minor action) (and yes - kobold trappers is a good idea 
)
> Traps
Note how monster can jump over squares(?) - and on that note ... flying enemies?
Otherwise, they seem like fun idea's; but can you fill 30 levels worth of traps?
Personaly i view forced movement in a situation with traps or other things ( a well, a hole, stairs etc ) that if you can do it to them, they can do it to you. If the monsters in the encounter make you forcefully move into the trapped square, the trap should go off on the PC if you have it do the same thing to a monster you forcefully move into a trap. The ability to warn allies of where traps are, should not come into effect if your forcefully moved into the square which is trapped. Though of course this comes down to rules as per DM. However, there are some other problems with forced movement. What if a PC makes the monster move 4 squares total, I move the monster threw 3 traps.
Do they all proc ? I hate forced movement for that, because then it just becomes cheese. Especialy since the scouts traps can "jump" one square.
Yes, enemies can force a PC into a trapped square. Trap Mastery keeps the scout himself from being susceptible to this, but his allies sure are. The scout has some tools to mitigate this in his utilities: at level 2 there's "Wait for it" but more utility powers are in the works.
OK, lets see...
> Scout/Traps
not a terribly orriginal idea, but hey, orginallity isn't really important.
> Rapid action
Seems like multiclass heaven? IIRC there is a wizard daily that allows you to cast magic missle as minor action, or sustaining powers, ...
Wizard's fury allows only one minor missile attack per turn, so I'm not overly concerned about it, especially since for it to be of any use you'd need magic missile as an at-will, which requires signifigant investment.
KOBOLDS FTW (they can shift as minor action) (and yes - kobold trappers is a good idea
I know. For a long time, I tried really hard to think of a way to justify traps damage being con based, just so their stats would match a trapper a little better. Oh well, as it is kobolds make great foils to a trapper, with their trap sense.
> TrapsNote how monster can jump over squares(?) - and on that note ... flying enemies?
Otherwise, they seem like fun idea's; but can you fill 30 levels worth of traps?
The DM needs to be honest in playing the monsters, especially when it comes to beasts, undead, constructs, etc that would not seek to avoid traps. I would like to add a note to traps where, as long as you have stealth when you place the trap, the trap has stealth, so the enemies won't know where they are. Doesn't help that the DM does know where they are and can still avoid them if he wants.
That's what Trap Mastery's trap shift ability is for though. If an NPC jumps a square, move the trap to the square he had jumped from or into.
Flying enemies are a challenge for trappers, but they have tools to deal with them. Grounding Bolt and harpoon are two good examples, but there are plenty more on the way.
In response to some negativity I've been getting about the controller forum not being appropriate for class suggestions, I'm requesting this thread be moved to the homebrew forum.
Due to complaints received about this thread, I've closed it. The thread will be reviewed to determine if it should be permanently closed, moved, re-opened, and/or a new thread or threads created in its place.
Due to complaints received about this thread, I've closed it. The thread will be reviewed to determine if it should be permanently closed, moved, re-opened, and/or a new thread or threads created in its place.
Thanks.
Homebrew forum, what do you think?
Added powers for level 3-6. I'd love any ideas anyone has for the rest of heroic tier. In paragon tier and beyond, I feel a little more comfortable makeing more of the traps a little less strictly martial.
Looks good, I like what I see so far. I'm a little unsure about the whole (1d6+dex)/2 thing. What all is halved with that? What about weapon focus etc? On a crit, is crit dice halved? Do you apply weaknesses and resistances before or after halving it?
My suggestion would be a clause that says "For the purpose of this attack, the attacker is considered weakened." or something like that. This way, everything that applies to weakend being halved applies to this without having to learn new rules (trust me, new rules confuse players - the 5th level shaman in our home game is STILL confused about her spirit companion moving at the same time she does).
Oh, and your use of the term 'long rest' bothers me, because it's not the correct game term. I know you mean 'extended rest', but it's jarring.
I understand what power slide is trying to simulate, and I like the flavour. Rules-wise however you cannot shift while prone, so if you go prone and then shift a number of squares the shift would fail. Also, allowing it to be move + dex is too much for an encounter utility, see similar powers like the barbarian's battle sprint, which I believe is move +4, no shifting, but gets a bonus against aoos
Realise that by mid paragon, we could be talking Move + 7 here, where Move could be as high as 7-9, and it's almost like getting a double-move with a single move action. I guess you ARE prone, however, so maybe not all bad.
Suggest you try one of the following;
Move two squares, then shift a number of squares in a straight line equal to your dexterity modifier + 2. You can shift through enemy squares and even end your turn there, and you suffer no penalties for difficult terrain. You become prone at the end of this movement.
The reason I specifically said that you can end your turn in an occupied square is because you can do that while prone. Dex+2 keeps the powers move sane on high dex characters who pump up their speed (elves, fleet footed, etc)
Your text says you can pass through difficult terrain - well of course you can, the point probably is you don't take a penalty for doing so.
Or;
Move two squares, then you are prone. Then shift a number of squares in a straight line equal to your dexterity modifier + 2. You can perform this shift while prone, and can move through enemy squares and even end your move in an enemy square. Additionally, you are unaffected by difficult terrain when shifting in this way.
EDIT:
It just occured to me that you should remove the dex modifier damage from the minor action attacks, even though you are already halving it, for the same reason that powers like Twin Strike don't deal stat modifier damage. I was just thinking and remembing all the times that I still had a minor action left when ending my turn, Scouts could easily outdamage the strikers if you are not careful because they basically are getting a 'free' attack nearly every round.
Um I think your lure power should lose the -2 penalty and if you make the knowledge check against that opponent, Not another of a similar type (which doesn't exist in 4e anyway, say origin or keyword), you should get a +2 bonus.
Looks good, I like what I see so far. I'm a little unsure about the whole (1d6+dex)/2 thing. What all is halved with that? What about weapon focus etc? On a crit, is crit dice halved? Do you apply weaknesses and resistances before or after halving it?
My suggestion would be a clause that says "For the purpose of this attack, the attacker is considered weakened." or something like that. This way, everything that applies to weakend being halved applies to this without having to learn new rules (trust me, new rules confuse players - the 5th level shaman in our home game is STILL confused about her spirit companion moving at the same time she does).
The damage is only halved as it comes out of the power at that point: all other sources of added damage are treated normally, feats, powers, enhancements, etc. Otherwise, the damage would lag too far behind other controllers' at-will multi-target damage ability (which deal damage lower than available crossbow weapons, but still get a full benefit from enhancements and other factors).
The minor action abilities are to make up for the inequity in area of effect powers compared to other controllers, so those are the kinds of powers I looked at for damage balance.
Earlier in this thread somewhere I broke down the damage of a scout doing multiple attacks with the Rapid Action feature vs other controllers with at-will AoEs.
Oh, and your use of the term 'long rest' bothers me, because it's not the correct game term. I know you mean 'extended rest', but it's jarring.
Whoops, thanks for catching that.
I understand what power slide is trying to simulate, and I like the flavour. Rules-wise however you cannot shift while prone, so if you go prone and then shift a number of squares the shift would fail. Also, allowing it to be move + dex is too much for an encounter utility, see similar powers like the barbarian's battle sprint, which I believe is move +4, no shifting, but gets a bonus against aoos
Specific beats general, in regards to no shifting while prone. Still, I could probably stand to clarify that. In terms of balance, the fact that you're falling prone is part of the equation. You're effectively blowing your next turn's movement on a little extra movement this turn. You don't take the attack penalty from this prone, but other signifigant disadvantages still apply.
It just occured to me that you should remove the dex modifier damage from the minor action attacks, even though you are already halving it, for the same reason that powers like Twin Strike don't deal stat modifier damage. I was just thinking and remembing all the times that I still had a minor action left when ending my turn, Scouts could easily outdamage the strikers if you are not careful because they basically are getting a 'free' attack nearly every round.
Twin Strike is a special case, as it can hit the same target twice. Now, you aren't prohibited from using Rapid Action attacks against the same target, but you get a major penalty for doing so. Remember, the minor action attacks are the scouts version of the controller's multi-target attacks, so that's the math that needs to pan out.
I am curious about how, even with the -5 for attacking the same target, rapid action minors against a single target would fare. The -5 is intended to make it fairly worthless to do so, but it's math I never did. Math for another night, though, as it is quite late, as will the changes you've suggested here.
Um I think your lure power should lose the -2 penalty and if you make the knowledge check against that opponent, Not another of a similar type (which doesn't exist in 4e anyway, say origin or keyword), you should get a +2 bonus.
It's not a similar type, it's the same type. So if I do a nature check on a Troll named Steve, the lure will work without penalty on trolls name Larry and Dave as well, but not on a War Troll named Jim.
Ok that's the issue, since type isn't an actual creature classification anymore that could mean anything from origin to keyword to that specific monster entry.
A Razorclaw Shifter Strafing Scout's Cover Fire vs an Eladrin War Wizard's Scorching BurstAssume the scout is 18 (20) dex and 14 (16) wis, while the wizard is 18 (20) Intel. The scout COULD go more wis, less dex to get more attacks, but his damage and attack would fall off signifigantly. Scout is using a repeating crossbow (1d8)
Enemies Attacked: Advantage Scout
Scout can attack 5 enemies, assuming he takes no move action and uses rapid action to turn his standard into 3 minors. The Wizard could theoretically hut as many as 9 enemies, but they'd have to be bunched together, and that doesn't happen often.
Attack: Advantage Scout
Scout gets +2 for the crossbow's proficiency bonus. This is sometimes negated by ranged attacks generally being easier to have cover against than area bursts.
Damage: Advanatage Wizard
Wizard does 1d6+5 damage to each enemy, on average 8.5 damage.
Scout does 1d8+5/2, so on average 4.75 damage per target. In other words, a major sacrifice in damage for increased accuracy, and to hit more guys.
EDIT: Probably a better comparison is to a power like the invoker's Hand of Radience, which hits 3 enemies without them being bunched. It deals 1d4+5 damage, so on average 7.5 per target versus the scout's 4.75. 4.75 * 5 = 23.75 while 7.5 * 3 = 22.5. Very close, overall, with the scout getting 1.25 more dpr than the Invoker by sacrificing his move action. If he does want to move on any given turn he'll wind up well below the Invoker.
This was the original math I had done, to compare apples to apples in terms of multiple target attacks. Below, I'm going to attempt to compare total average damage done when all 5 minor actions are used to attack a single target with Cover Fire compared to a Wizard using Magic Missile and an Invoker using Avenging Light.
Because defenses are relevant, We'll assume it's a level 3 monster, AC 17, NADS 15 This leaves both the scout and wizard with a 50% chance to hit.
The wizard deals 10 average damage with his magic missile, add in the attack% and you have an average damage per round of 5.
The Invoker deals 10.5 average damage with Avenging Light, so his average damage per round is 5.25
The scout deals (4.5+5)/2 so around 4.75. Cut that in half to account for the chance to miss, and you get 2.375.
The other 4 attacks also deal 4.75 damage on average when they hit, but they also take a 25% penalty to the attack, so average damage per attack is actually 1.1875
2.375 + 4(1.1875) = 7.125 damage per round
In other words, yes, this is indeed too strong. I'm going to alter this to a scaling penalty. -4 for the second attack, -8 for the third, -12 for the fourth, and -16 for the fifth. This would make the second attack marginally easier to land, the third more difficult, the fourth very difficult, and the fifth all but impossible.
With this system in place:
2.375 + 1.35 + .45 + .225 + .225 = 4.625 average damage per round.
Right off the bat, I'm not trying to sound harsh - I like the class, I just think it needs look at the balance:
Twin Strike is a special case, as it can hit the same target twice. Now, you aren't prohibited from using Rapid Action attacks against the same target, but you get a major penalty for doing so.
Not strictly. A strict reading of your write-up only applies a penalty if you convert a Standard action into Wis modifier minors and attack the same target twice.
Your current write-up allows a scout with the right feats and/or equipment to take two minor action pot shots at a target (with no penalty) and still take a standard action. (They would have to reload free, somehow, obviously, but there are ways to do that).
Cople that with feats that add damage (There's one specifically for crossbows that adds damage if you don't move) and you're looking at becoming nearly on-par with a ranger with the exception that you don't have Quarry. Add multiclass Ranger for extra cheese.
Damage: Advanatage WizardWizard does 1d6+5 damage to each enemy, on average 8.5 damage.
Scout does 1d8+5/2, so on average 4.75 damage per target. In other words, a major sacrifice in damage for increased accuracy, and to hit more guys.
Okay, here's where you're right at first level, but wrong at higher levels. You said that that's the only part that's halved, well there are lots of feats that add to damage. In Paragon Teir we have Steady Shooter and Weapon Focus for +5 to damage.
Here's my math - this is without even TRYING to dig for feats that benefit anyone, if you can think of feats that would benefit either the Wizard or the Scout let me know and I'll reworkd the math.
This is assuming all attacks are against different targets, so no penalties for the scout's Rapid whatever ability. I should be packing to leave for the weekend and that's match that requires more thought.
Scout: Feats - Steady Shooter, Rapid Reload, Weapon Focus (crossbow)
Attributes (Without racial mods, Con, Wis and Dex would all be beneficial)
Lvl 15 Str: 11, Con 15, Dex 20, Int 11, Wis 17, Cha 9
Scout gets 5 attacks if he does nothing else on his turn, he gets a bonus for not moving with Steady Shooter. Note that with a racial bonus to either Wis or Con he gets an extra attack.
(1d8 + 5)/2 + 5 + 4 = 12 to 15 damage per attack.
If we use a Superior Crossbow, it's 12-16 damge and range 40.
Wizard: Feats = Weapon Focus (staff) (There are a lot more feats that augment weapon damage than spell damage, which is probably why they never made a Weapon Controller before the Seeker.)
Lvl 15: Int 21 (left the other stats alone since they arn't relevant to these calculations unless there are feats you can suggest)
1d6 + 5 + 2 + 4 = 12 - 17 damage per attack
For the record, a Ranger with the same set-up and a Greatbow is dealing 7 - 18 damage with Twin Strike, plus an additional 2-16 for Quarry. Assuming all attacks hit, the scout gets an average 67.5 damage and the ranger averages 34 damage.
The Scout:
+ Can target any enemy within 20 squares (40 with superior crossbow) and is therefor guarenteed to get all 5 attacks.
+ Can target the same enemy more than once, albeit at a penalty.
+ Has the versatility of using two minors while still taking a standard action.
The Wizard:
+ Dosn't need to give up his move or minor actions.
- Can only target enemies in a close burst 1, or close burst 2 with a feat.
- Maximum range of 12 feat with Widen Spell (Area 2 within 10)
- Has to use a standard action to attack.
Also, every attack has a chance to critical and deal an extra 4d6 or 4d12 for viscious, which rapidly expands their damage.
Already I'm envisioning Half-Elf with their con modivier and Delitant Twin Strike getting 4 attacks every round with no penalty.