Cleric in no armor - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Cleric in no armor

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
loganthebard
Mar 18, 2011 14:24:38 I've got a player wanting to play a cleric, but doesn't like the "cleric in plate" feel. He says they're too paladin-esque. He's wanting to play a laser cleric in no armor. Basically, a holy mage. Here's the rules I'm thinking of giving him.

Armor of Faith: While wearing no armor, the cleric may use his Wisdom modifier instead of his Dexterity or Intelligence modifier to determine armor class. Also, while not weilding a shield, the cleric gains a +1 bonus to AC and Reflex. Increase this bonus to +2 at 11th level, and +3 at 21st level.

Guided Light: While not wearing armor or a shield, the cleric gains a +1 bonus to all implement attack roles.
#2
salla
Mar 18, 2011 15:22:42 Assuming he's unwilling to just refluff his armor into something that looks less bulky ...

I would probably make the alternate AC bonus stat Charisma rather than his primary statistic. That makes it too easy to just dump all your eggs in one basket, as it were.

I wouldn't give the 'shield' bonus, since clerics aren't proficient in shields anyway.

Guided Light ... why? That has nothing to do with the cleric's AC issue.
#3
alitain
Mar 18, 2011 18:55:01 I'm just curious...so if the player doesn't want to have his cleric wear plate, then he doesn't need to wear plate. Not to mention Clerics don't get plate. Well actually I don't know about Essentials cleric so I'm probably wrong if that's what your talking about. If it is, clarification might be helpful so we get what you/player are working with.

But if it's just normal 4th then the player has to willing choose to take the feat for plate. Thus, I wouldn't award the player for not wearing plate. And after checking the character builder, even the Warpriest doesn't get plate. Thus the player should just wear cloth then he wont have to worry about the "cleric in plate" feel.

Sorry if I'm coming off as a Scrooge, there just doesn't seem to be any reason to give the player a bonus because they want to play a cleric "with no armor" which is how you can totally make the cleric, since they have Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail.

And Salla, Cleric Warpriests do actually get shield proficiencies, just not normal 4th Clerics.

But yeah, I honestly just fail to see any point in rewarding the player because he doesn't want to wear armor. One thing, CLOTH. If he doesn't want his character to wear armor then either he's naked, or he's wearing clothes, which are made from...CLOTH. Thus the player should just wear Cloth armor and there ya go. Again no reason to reward him for not wearing armor when the player has a perfectly fine choice of armor that is effectively not wearing armor. Even Leather works really, and is better than cloth.

*Sigh* Though since my post isn't entirely negative, if for whatever reason you still feel like he needs to be rewarded, what you have with the Armor of Faith, is fine enough. But I'd remove the part about shields. Because shields are generally an optional choice even if you have proficiency from your class, it's still an optional choice to wield one and potentially lose a hand to wield a weapon or artifact. Though you know the Avenger has the same thing, but they still can wearing cloth armor. So again...don't see the point...sorry. But I would remove Guiding Light. I agree with Salla this has nothing to do with the player's outfit preferences, and seems to just be simply you giving a bonus to the player for nothing, and no good reason.
#4
undrave
Mar 18, 2011 20:01:00 If he wants to be a laser Cleric with no Armor then he should play a Preservation Invoker with Unarmored Agility.

Otherwise just make him spend a feat so he can use Charisma (NOT Wisdom, too easy that way) in place of DEX and INT when calculating AC in light armor. He shouldn't get stuff for free because he doesn't want to use his class proficiency.
#5
MechaPilot
Mar 18, 2011 20:46:24 Might I suggest this? Admittedly it has more of a martial feel, but it could be used for members of any class.

Another alternative is simply to refluff the armor into a prayer of protection. Apply all the benefits and penalties of the armor, but the character isn't wearing any. Instead, he/she is chanting a prayer of protection during combat.
#6
salla
Mar 18, 2011 21:37:28
If he wants to be a laser Cleric with no Armor then he should play a Preservation Invoker with Unarmored Agility.

Otherwise just make him spend a feat so he can use Charisma (NOT Wisdom, too easy that way) in place of DEX and INT when calculating AC in light armor. He shouldn't get stuff for free because he doesn't want to use his class proficiency.

There is still some give-and-take there, as there are some pretty good armor enchantments for clerics ... that all come in chainmail.
#7
loganthebard
Mar 19, 2011 0:19:53 Thank you for the quick replies, and apologize in advance for the wall of text.

I posted originally on my lunch break, so it was unclear and vague, I apologize. The Guided Light entry was for another idea, and didn't mean to be copy/pasted from our email exchange. In our discussions, we refer collectively to all heavy armor as "plate" and was a generalization I didn't mean to carry over to here. Also, I'm rusty on my cleric rules, I thought they had light shield proficiency. As they don't, the shield clause is gone!

Let me be more specific as to what he wants. He describes his ideal character as a "holy wizard." He wants to be a divine leader class, but wants to get away from the heavily armored clerics of traditional DnD. He thinks that traditional clerics feel too much like video game paladins, and wants to be more of the robe wearing, physically frail but of strong moral and mental calibur. (I really didn't want to use this comparison, but think WoW priests.)

Addressing the item issue, would taking Healer's Armor (Hide/Chain only) and slapping it on a Robe instead be that unbalancing for a home game?

I based my original idea off of Earthstrength Warden feature. I know it uses a secondary stat (Con) but still allows for light armor. Here's my idea again:

Armor of Faith: While wearing no armor, the cleric may use his Wis modifier instead of his Dex/Int modifier to determine armor class.

Here's a comparison of all other cloth-only or leather classes:
Psion: Int based
Seeker: Leather, option to allow Str (secondary stat for class) instead of Dex/Int
Wizard: Int based, Staff of Defense option
Swordmage: Leather, Int based, Swordmage Warding feature
Artificer: Leather, Int based
Assassin: Leather, Light Shields, Dex based,
Avenger: Armor of Faith, Int/Dex secondary stats
Monk: Dex based, Unarmored Defense, Iron Soul option
Rogue: Leather, Dex based, Cunning sneak option (close enough to AC bonus)
Sorcerer: Dex is secondary stat, option to allow Str (secondary stat) instead of Dex/Int, Chaos Burst feature
Warlock: Leather, Int is secondary stat, Shadow Walk

Considering equal primary scores and using Armor of faith, the cleric would be always behind Staff Wizards, Swordmages, Artificers, Assasssins, Monks, and Rogues. They would be equal with Psions and non-staff Wizards. Most important of these comparisons is the Artificer, which is another leader. Also, comparing directly to Chainmail, a cleric would need a 22 base Wisdom to get the same AC bonus at level one, and doesn't catch up until Feyweave Armor (minimum enhancement value +4, or item level 16)

Unless I'm missing something (which I'm sure I am, so please point it out), at level one, a min-maxing 20 Wis cleric using Armor of Faith instead of Chainmail would be losing 1 point of AC, but gaining one speed (irrelevant for Dwarves) and having one less check penalty. At level 30, with 28 Wis, he would be getting +9 AC from Armor of Faith and +7 AC from Magic Mindpatterned Armor +6, while he would get +16 AC from Magic Pitmail +6, while still only be gaining 1 speed and having 1 less check penalty. Even at max level, my Armor of Faith is equal with Chainmail. So how about this:

Armor of Faith: During a short or extended rest, the cleric may choose to pray to activate or dismiss his Armor of Faith. Armor of faith remains active until dismissed by the cleric, and persists through all effects. While Armor of Faith is active the cleric achieves a strong connection with his diety, and uses his Wisdom modifier instead of his Dexterity or Intelligence modifier to determine Armor Class, but suffers -1 speed (as if reduced by heavy armor), and a -1 check penalty.

The speed and armor class penalty represents the concentration the cleric must maintain with his diety. If he takes this option, he loses all armor proficiencies except cloth. Thoughts?

Tl;dr: Puppies!
#8
struckingfuggle
Mar 19, 2011 3:15:11
Another alternative is simply to refluff the armor into a prayer of protection. Apply all the benefits and penalties of the armor, but the character isn't wearing any. Instead, he/she is chanting a prayer of protection during combat.

Stolen so very, very much.
#9
Damon_Tor
Mar 19, 2011 4:13:43 There's no reason a cleric can't go with Int as a secondary and take unarmored agility. But no, I wouldn't make any special concessions.
#10
Krusk
Mar 19, 2011 9:42:27
IIRC there is an armor that can change between cloth, heavy armor, and maybe hide a as an action.

Your player could wear it as cloth out of battle, and then in battle mutter a quick prayer, and become wreathed in divine energy. (AKA switches the armor to a heavier armor)
#11
Neutronium_Dragon
Mar 19, 2011 12:27:24 This is one case where a hybrid character (cleric/invoker) might be a good option to describe the character style, especially since the invoker side emphasizes effects that are more "mage-like" than does the cleric. Since Wis/Int is a common stat combination for a character like that, sticking to robes is a viable option.
#12
pluisjen
Mar 21, 2011 13:50:58 Personally I'd just have him take a 14+ Int and Unarmored Agility and be done with it. Clerics (especially of the pew-pew variety) arent' frontliners anyway and don't use their Armor Class all too much and the Int is going to help his magical talents by bumping his Arcana and Religion check.

If he is of a race that gets a bonus to Int, Wis and/or Cha he should be fine.

Refluffing things would also work, of course.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 loganthebard Mar 18, 2011 14:24:38	I've got a player wanting to play a cleric, but doesn't like the "cleric in plate" feel. He says they're too paladin-esque. He's wanting to play a laser cleric in no armor. Basically, a holy mage. Here's the rules I'm thinking of giving him. Armor of Faith: While wearing no armor, the cleric may use his Wisdom modifier instead of his Dexterity or Intelligence modifier to determine armor class. Also, while not weilding a shield, the cleric gains a +1 bonus to AC and Reflex. Increase this bonus to +2 at 11th level, and +3 at 21st level. Guided Light: While not wearing armor or a shield, the cleric gains a +1 bonus to all implement attack roles.
#2 salla Mar 18, 2011 15:22:42	Assuming he's unwilling to just refluff his armor into something that looks less bulky ... I would probably make the alternate AC bonus stat Charisma rather than his primary statistic. That makes it too easy to just dump all your eggs in one basket, as it were. I wouldn't give the 'shield' bonus, since clerics aren't proficient in shields anyway. Guided Light ... why? That has nothing to do with the cleric's AC issue.
#3 alitain Mar 18, 2011 18:55:01	I'm just curious...so if the player doesn't want to have his cleric wear plate, then he doesn't need to wear plate. Not to mention Clerics don't get plate. Well actually I don't know about Essentials cleric so I'm probably wrong if that's what your talking about. If it is, clarification might be helpful so we get what you/player are working with. But if it's just normal 4th then the player has to willing choose to take the feat for plate. Thus, I wouldn't award the player for not wearing plate. And after checking the character builder, even the Warpriest doesn't get plate. Thus the player should just wear cloth then he wont have to worry about the "cleric in plate" feel. Sorry if I'm coming off as a Scrooge, there just doesn't seem to be any reason to give the player a bonus because they want to play a cleric "with no armor" which is how you can totally make the cleric, since they have Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail. And Salla, Cleric Warpriests do actually get shield proficiencies, just not normal 4th Clerics. But yeah, I honestly just fail to see any point in rewarding the player because he doesn't want to wear armor. One thing, CLOTH. If he doesn't want his character to wear armor then either he's naked, or he's wearing clothes, which are made from...CLOTH. Thus the player should just wear Cloth armor and there ya go. Again no reason to reward him for not wearing armor when the player has a perfectly fine choice of armor that is effectively not wearing armor. Even Leather works really, and is better than cloth. Sigh Though since my post isn't entirely negative, if for whatever reason you still feel like he needs to be rewarded, what you have with the Armor of Faith, is fine enough. But I'd remove the part about shields. Because shields are generally an optional choice even if you have proficiency from your class, it's still an optional choice to wield one and potentially lose a hand to wield a weapon or artifact. Though you know the Avenger has the same thing, but they still can wearing cloth armor. So again...don't see the point...sorry. But I would remove Guiding Light. I agree with Salla this has nothing to do with the player's outfit preferences, and seems to just be simply you giving a bonus to the player for nothing, and no good reason.
#4 undrave Mar 18, 2011 20:01:00	If he wants to be a laser Cleric with no Armor then he should play a Preservation Invoker with Unarmored Agility. Otherwise just make him spend a feat so he can use Charisma (NOT Wisdom, too easy that way) in place of DEX and INT when calculating AC in light armor. He shouldn't get stuff for free because he doesn't want to use his class proficiency.
#5 MechaPilot Mar 18, 2011 20:46:24	Might I suggest this? Admittedly it has more of a martial feel, but it could be used for members of any class. Another alternative is simply to refluff the armor into a prayer of protection. Apply all the benefits and penalties of the armor, but the character isn't wearing any. Instead, he/she is chanting a prayer of protection during combat.
#6 salla Mar 18, 2011 21:37:28	If he wants to be a laser Cleric with no Armor then he should play a Preservation Invoker with Unarmored Agility. Otherwise just make him spend a feat so he can use Charisma (NOT Wisdom, too easy that way) in place of DEX and INT when calculating AC in light armor. He shouldn't get stuff for free because he doesn't want to use his class proficiency. There is still some give-and-take there, as there are some pretty good armor enchantments for clerics ... that all come in chainmail.
#7 loganthebard Mar 19, 2011 0:19:53	Thank you for the quick replies, and apologize in advance for the wall of text. I posted originally on my lunch break, so it was unclear and vague, I apologize. The Guided Light entry was for another idea, and didn't mean to be copy/pasted from our email exchange. In our discussions, we refer collectively to all heavy armor as "plate" and was a generalization I didn't mean to carry over to here. Also, I'm rusty on my cleric rules, I thought they had light shield proficiency. As they don't, the shield clause is gone! Let me be more specific as to what he wants. He describes his ideal character as a "holy wizard." He wants to be a divine leader class, but wants to get away from the heavily armored clerics of traditional DnD. He thinks that traditional clerics feel too much like video game paladins, and wants to be more of the robe wearing, physically frail but of strong moral and mental calibur. (I really didn't want to use this comparison, but think WoW priests.) Addressing the item issue, would taking Healer's Armor (Hide/Chain only) and slapping it on a Robe instead be that unbalancing for a home game? I based my original idea off of Earthstrength Warden feature. I know it uses a secondary stat (Con) but still allows for light armor. Here's my idea again: Armor of Faith: While wearing no armor, the cleric may use his Wis modifier instead of his Dex/Int modifier to determine armor class. Here's a comparison of all other cloth-only or leather classes: Psion: Int based Seeker: Leather, option to allow Str (secondary stat for class) instead of Dex/Int Wizard: Int based, Staff of Defense option Swordmage: Leather, Int based, Swordmage Warding feature Artificer: Leather, Int based Assassin: Leather, Light Shields, Dex based, Avenger: Armor of Faith, Int/Dex secondary stats Monk: Dex based, Unarmored Defense, Iron Soul option Rogue: Leather, Dex based, Cunning sneak option (close enough to AC bonus) Sorcerer: Dex is secondary stat, option to allow Str (secondary stat) instead of Dex/Int, Chaos Burst feature Warlock: Leather, Int is secondary stat, Shadow Walk Considering equal primary scores and using Armor of faith, the cleric would be always behind Staff Wizards, Swordmages, Artificers, Assasssins, Monks, and Rogues. They would be equal with Psions and non-staff Wizards. Most important of these comparisons is the Artificer, which is another leader. Also, comparing directly to Chainmail, a cleric would need a 22 base Wisdom to get the same AC bonus at level one, and doesn't catch up until Feyweave Armor (minimum enhancement value +4, or item level 16) Unless I'm missing something (which I'm sure I am, so please point it out), at level one, a min-maxing 20 Wis cleric using Armor of Faith instead of Chainmail would be losing 1 point of AC, but gaining one speed (irrelevant for Dwarves) and having one less check penalty. At level 30, with 28 Wis, he would be getting +9 AC from Armor of Faith and +7 AC from Magic Mindpatterned Armor +6, while he would get +16 AC from Magic Pitmail +6, while still only be gaining 1 speed and having 1 less check penalty. Even at max level, my Armor of Faith is equal with Chainmail. So how about this: Armor of Faith: During a short or extended rest, the cleric may choose to pray to activate or dismiss his Armor of Faith. Armor of faith remains active until dismissed by the cleric, and persists through all effects. While Armor of Faith is active the cleric achieves a strong connection with his diety, and uses his Wisdom modifier instead of his Dexterity or Intelligence modifier to determine Armor Class, but suffers -1 speed (as if reduced by heavy armor), and a -1 check penalty. The speed and armor class penalty represents the concentration the cleric must maintain with his diety. If he takes this option, he loses all armor proficiencies except cloth. Thoughts? Tl;dr: Puppies!
#8 struckingfuggle Mar 19, 2011 3:15:11	Another alternative is simply to refluff the armor into a prayer of protection. Apply all the benefits and penalties of the armor, but the character isn't wearing any. Instead, he/she is chanting a prayer of protection during combat. Stolen so very, very much.
#9 Damon_Tor Mar 19, 2011 4:13:43	There's no reason a cleric can't go with Int as a secondary and take unarmored agility. But no, I wouldn't make any special concessions.
#10 Krusk Mar 19, 2011 9:42:27	IIRC there is an armor that can change between cloth, heavy armor, and maybe hide a as an action. Your player could wear it as cloth out of battle, and then in battle mutter a quick prayer, and become wreathed in divine energy. (AKA switches the armor to a heavier armor)
#11 Neutronium_Dragon Mar 19, 2011 12:27:24	This is one case where a hybrid character (cleric/invoker) might be a good option to describe the character style, especially since the invoker side emphasizes effects that are more "mage-like" than does the cleric. Since Wis/Int is a common stat combination for a character like that, sticking to robes is a viable option.
#12 pluisjen Mar 21, 2011 13:50:58	Personally I'd just have him take a 14+ Int and Unarmored Agility and be done with it. Clerics (especially of the pew-pew variety) arent' frontliners anyway and don't use their Armor Class all too much and the Int is going to help his magical talents by bumping his Arcana and Religion check. If he is of a race that gets a bonus to Int, Wis and/or Cha he should be fine. Refluffing things would also work, of course.