Cleric - Substitute range for weapon damage - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Cleric - Substitute range for weapon damage

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
inlicere
Jul 04, 2008 8:37:51 I came up with this idea, to create an option for those who want to play a less combat-oriented cleric. Please let me know what you think of the concept and game balance of it:

Optionally substitute range for melee weapon damage
This option applies to cleric prayers which have a range of “Melee weapon” and do weapon-multiplier damage on a hit. When a cleric uses such a prayer, he can choose to eliminate the weapon damage of the prayer, in exchange for the ability to use the prayer at range. This has the following effects on the power:
The Weapon keyword does not apply; instead, the prayer gains the Implement keyword.
The “Melee weapon” attack type is replaced with “Ranged 5” (increase to “Ranged 10” at 21st level).
The prayer no longer does weapon damage (including any ability modifier damage that was added to the weapon damage).
The attack attribute becomes Wisdom; the defense attribute does not change.
If the prayer has no direct effect on the target other than weapon damage (e.g., no hit point damage, no status conditions imposed, no movement forced, etc), then no attack roll need be made at all.
For example, if this option were applied to…
Priest’s Shield – The cleric and one adjacent ally would each gain the +1 AC until the end of the cleric’s next turn, without the cleric ever making an attack.
Wrathful Thunder – The cleric makes a Wisdom vs. AC attack against a creature within 5 squares. There is a clap of thunder; if the attack is successful, the target is dazed until the end of the cleric’s next turn.

Besides allowing for less combat-oriented (or at least weapon-oriented) clerics, it also gives a cleric an extra option in combat if they need to hang back for a short while, or aren't able to get into a toe-to-toe fighting position.
#2
aluman
Jul 04, 2008 20:54:08 AC is usually 2-3 points higher than other defenses, you should account for this as otherwise it turns the cleric without weapon prof bonuses into suboptimal.
#3
inlicere
Jul 04, 2008 22:15:03
AC is usually 2-3 points higher than other defenses, you should account for this as otherwise it turns the cleric without weapon prof bonuses into suboptimal.

Good catch. I've edited so that the prayer gains the Implement keyword.
#4
aluman
Jul 06, 2008 11:30:48 Weapons have a proficeny of +2 or +3 (possibly eventually a +1 here and there too), AC reflects this. By removing the weapon keyword and replacing it with implement you lose that 2 or 3.

Retarget it to Fort or Reflex, as Will tends to be the lowest defense.
#5
inlicere
Jul 07, 2008 8:13:55
Weapons have a proficeny of +2 or +3 (possibly eventually a +1 here and there too), AC reflects this. By removing the weapon keyword and replacing it with implement you lose that 2 or 3.

Retarget it to Fort or Reflex, as Will tends to be the lowest defense.

I get your point, but I'm not sure that it makes sense to arbitrarilly have every power target Fort, or every power target Reflex, and I'm not sure how to word the rule such that it can clearly indicate which defense to use in which circumstance. Maybe by using other keywords? e.g., radiant attacks use the Reflex defense, and thunder attacks use Fortitude?

In reviewing the existing prayers, I'm actually surprised at how few times this issue comes up; weapon-based prayers which target the AC defense and which also have another negative effect on the target. They exist, but there are a lot fewer than I thought.

Conversely, there are actually three prayers (Spiritual Weapon, Holy Wrath and Knight of Glory) which already have Wisdom vs. AC attacks and which use the Implement keyword.
#6
Xeviat-DM
Jul 09, 2008 12:53:47 Attacks target the defense which makes the most sense for them. Nearly everything with the Weapon keyword attacks AC UNLESS the power is noticably weaker than other powers of its level. For example, Furrious Smash (Warlord At-Will) only deals Str Mod damage and gives an ally +2 to hit and damage against the target, but it targets Fort. Rogue's have an attack that targets Relfex but just deals standard [w]+Dex, when they have another power that deals [w]+Dex+Cha.
#7
inlicere
Jul 09, 2008 22:03:07
Attacks target the defense which makes the most sense for them. ...

Oh, I agree. I'm just saying that wording the house rule as "change the defense to whatever makes the most sense" is waaay to open-ended for me to be comfortable with. I would want there to be a clear-cut way of altering the defense in any case where it needed to be, but I haven't quite found a good way to do that.
#8
greatfrito
Jul 09, 2008 22:30:42 If you think of Reflex as the 4th equivalent of "Touch AC", it might help.

I'd personally have everything that previously hit AC switch over to hitting Reflex.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 inlicere Jul 04, 2008 8:37:51	I came up with this idea, to create an option for those who want to play a less combat-oriented cleric. Please let me know what you think of the concept and game balance of it: Optionally substitute range for melee weapon damage This option applies to cleric prayers which have a range of “Melee weapon” and do weapon-multiplier damage on a hit. When a cleric uses such a prayer, he can choose to eliminate the weapon damage of the prayer, in exchange for the ability to use the prayer at range. This has the following effects on the power: The Weapon keyword does not apply; instead, the prayer gains the Implement keyword. The “Melee weapon” attack type is replaced with “Ranged 5” (increase to “Ranged 10” at 21st level). The prayer no longer does weapon damage (including any ability modifier damage that was added to the weapon damage). The attack attribute becomes Wisdom; the defense attribute does not change. If the prayer has no direct effect on the target other than weapon damage (e.g., no hit point damage, no status conditions imposed, no movement forced, etc), then no attack roll need be made at all. For example, if this option were applied to… Priest’s Shield – The cleric and one adjacent ally would each gain the +1 AC until the end of the cleric’s next turn, without the cleric ever making an attack. Wrathful Thunder – The cleric makes a Wisdom vs. AC attack against a creature within 5 squares. There is a clap of thunder; if the attack is successful, the target is dazed until the end of the cleric’s next turn. Besides allowing for less combat-oriented (or at least weapon-oriented) clerics, it also gives a cleric an extra option in combat if they need to hang back for a short while, or aren't able to get into a toe-to-toe fighting position.
#2 aluman Jul 04, 2008 20:54:08	AC is usually 2-3 points higher than other defenses, you should account for this as otherwise it turns the cleric without weapon prof bonuses into suboptimal.
#3 inlicere Jul 04, 2008 22:15:03	AC is usually 2-3 points higher than other defenses, you should account for this as otherwise it turns the cleric without weapon prof bonuses into suboptimal. Good catch. I've edited so that the prayer gains the Implement keyword.
#4 aluman Jul 06, 2008 11:30:48	Weapons have a proficeny of +2 or +3 (possibly eventually a +1 here and there too), AC reflects this. By removing the weapon keyword and replacing it with implement you lose that 2 or 3. Retarget it to Fort or Reflex, as Will tends to be the lowest defense.
#5 inlicere Jul 07, 2008 8:13:55	Weapons have a proficeny of +2 or +3 (possibly eventually a +1 here and there too), AC reflects this. By removing the weapon keyword and replacing it with implement you lose that 2 or 3. Retarget it to Fort or Reflex, as Will tends to be the lowest defense. I get your point, but I'm not sure that it makes sense to arbitrarilly have every power target Fort, or every power target Reflex, and I'm not sure how to word the rule such that it can clearly indicate which defense to use in which circumstance. Maybe by using other keywords? e.g., radiant attacks use the Reflex defense, and thunder attacks use Fortitude? In reviewing the existing prayers, I'm actually surprised at how few times this issue comes up; weapon-based prayers which target the AC defense and which also have another negative effect on the target. They exist, but there are a lot fewer than I thought. Conversely, there are actually three prayers (Spiritual Weapon, Holy Wrath and Knight of Glory) which already have Wisdom vs. AC attacks and which use the Implement keyword.
#6 Xeviat-DM Jul 09, 2008 12:53:47	Attacks target the defense which makes the most sense for them. Nearly everything with the Weapon keyword attacks AC UNLESS the power is noticably weaker than other powers of its level. For example, Furrious Smash (Warlord At-Will) only deals Str Mod damage and gives an ally +2 to hit and damage against the target, but it targets Fort. Rogue's have an attack that targets Relfex but just deals standard [w]+Dex, when they have another power that deals [w]+Dex+Cha.
#7 inlicere Jul 09, 2008 22:03:07	Attacks target the defense which makes the most sense for them. ... Oh, I agree. I'm just saying that wording the house rule as "change the defense to whatever makes the most sense" is waaay to open-ended for me to be comfortable with. I would want there to be a clear-cut way of altering the defense in any case where it needed to be, but I haven't quite found a good way to do that.
#8 greatfrito Jul 09, 2008 22:30:42	If you think of Reflex as the 4th equivalent of "Touch AC", it might help. I'd personally have everything that previously hit AC switch over to hitting Reflex.