Climbing Monsters - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Climbing Monsters

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
saffer
Aug 05, 2010 10:57:29 I didn't see a well defined rule for climbing monsters in the middle of the combat, so i'm trying to make a House Rule for that and a would like some help. I don't think a skill challenge is usefull either. So here we go:

Climbing a Creature: Make a Athletics vs. Reflex check OR Athletics vs. DC (i don't know which to choose). You can only climb large or larger creatures This check is usually part of a move action, but can be part of any of the creature's action that involve the creature moving. This action provoke a opportunity attack as normal.

-DC: The normal DC is 15 + 1/2 lv of the target + random modifiers. The random modifier is defined by the GM for situations like a Cristal monster (harder to climb), a Ent full of branchs (easier to climb).

-Success: You shift to the nearest square occuped by the target and it gets -2 for attack rolls against you. When the creature moves, you move with it, staying the same portion of the target's space.

-Fail: You fall prone. If you were already climbing the creature, you shift to adjacent square that not include the target's space and the normally rules of falling is applyied.

-Keeping upon the target: Every time you receive damage by an attack or the target make an action that the GM think it's plausible, you must make an Athetics OR Acrobatics to don't fall.

-Shaking: The target can spend a moving action to try to get rid of the creature. Than the creature must make an Acrobatics vs. DC check to don't fall. OR Than the target make an Strenght or a Dexterity check to get rid of the creature.

-Climbing the target: An Athletics vs. DC check, as a normal climbing.

I made this rule stealing information from the Rogue 10th Utility Close Quarters and the Ranger and Fighter Paragon Path Giantslayer Utility Ride the Giant Down. And i decided that the creature didn't get combat adv for that, otherwise the rogues will use this everytime.
I'd like some advices and corrections please xD.
#2
babyj
Aug 05, 2010 13:37:28 I like the mechanics you wrote, but it seems to introduce some mechanics that are otherwise impossible. Due to the following, from PlyrHdbk 1, pg. 283..
MOVING THROUGH OCCUPIED SQUARES✦ Ally: You can move through a square occupied by an ally.✦ Enemy: You normally can’t move through an enemy’s space unless that enemy is helpless or two size categories larger or smaller than you. Moving into a nonhelpless enemy’s space provokes an opportunity attack from that enemy, because you left a square adjacent to the enemy. (Some powers let you move through an enemy’s square without provoking an opportunity attack.)✦ Ending Movement: You can end your movement in an ally’s square only if the ally is prone. You canend your movement in an enemy’s square only if the enemy is helpless. However, Tiny creatures can end their movement in a larger creature’s square. If youdon’t have enough movement remaining to reach asquare you are allowed to be in, your move ends in the last square you could occupy.✦ Standing Up: If you’re prone and in the same square as another creature, see “Stand Up,” page 292, for how to stand up

...I would rule it like so:
#1 You cannot enter the enemies space even if it is large (since its not two size categories difference or more, except in the case of a Small creature attacking a Large), but of course you don't want to discourage this sort of thinking at all. Also, when there is no specific to override the general rule, we are bound as DMs to keep in line with the general as much as possible rather than create new specifics to cover the situation (ie - what you have done above gives each player a new set of powers that break the rules). So let's call this an improvised combat maneuver, and just disallow the whole "riding" part due to the lack of a power to override the general. I recommend you look at the rules in DMGuide, pg. 42 for specifics on how to handle these sorts of combat maneuvers.

Now having said all that, I agree that the Athletics can be a good choice for which skill to use to get into position for the attack (which should provoke an OppAtk for leaving a threatened square to get close enough) and as for a DC, use something like 12 + 1/2 level of the target (since this sounds like something that would be rather hard, but not dreadfully difficult - so somewhere between base 10 and 15 sounds about right). Once in position, the character must make an attack roll vs AC (most likely), and consult the tables to find an appropriate damage value according to the character's level, and then resolve the attack.
With this method, there will be no contingency situations that involve "if this, then that" rules which could have unforeseen consequences..

EDIT: If they specifically want to ride the target, perhaps a grab is the best way to handle this situation, so then there are already mechanics for the sustaining thereof. Keep the character outside the enemy's space though, as per the grab. And instead of immobilizing the target, they instead cause minimal damage as per the improvised attack chart, but the character gets to move with the target by way of an immediate interrupt triggered by a move that involves Athletics like you describe - the effect of which being he or she moves to the nearest square adjacent to the target if successful, or the grab ends if not.
#3
saffer
Aug 05, 2010 17:42:26 I thought that the any thing that realy override the general rule was te -2 for attacks to the target creature... Well, as you say, the "entering spaces" thing don't allow the mechanics of my rule, but i don't have another option than overriding it...

We can simplify this rule using just the DC and the skills acrobatics and athletics, and let the DM decide which cases it must be used.

Talking about the grab, one guy at the Rules forum said he allow his players to make a grab attack in creature 2 sizes larger like you said. It's a pratical soluction, but spending a standard action to it will not be a cleaver decision in combat, so there is no reason to do it inside combat and neither outside the combat because the best option would be a skill challenge.

In situations that the DM wants that his players climb the monster, than the monster will have a mechanic to this kind of combat, like powers to push the players, pre-determined DCs for his parts of body. Like a Shadow of the Colossus battle xD
#4
saffer
Aug 09, 2010 12:39:44 anyone can comment plis xD ?
#5
Drowmage
Aug 09, 2010 15:59:48 Simplify SaFFer.

1 - Grab the target as usual.
2 - Every round make Athletics to Climb as usual.
3 - If the target Escape you fall.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 saffer Aug 05, 2010 10:57:29	I didn't see a well defined rule for climbing monsters in the middle of the combat, so i'm trying to make a House Rule for that and a would like some help. I don't think a skill challenge is usefull either. So here we go: Climbing a Creature: Make a Athletics vs. Reflex check OR Athletics vs. DC (i don't know which to choose). You can only climb large or larger creatures This check is usually part of a move action, but can be part of any of the creature's action that involve the creature moving. This action provoke a opportunity attack as normal. -DC: The normal DC is 15 + 1/2 lv of the target + random modifiers. The random modifier is defined by the GM for situations like a Cristal monster (harder to climb), a Ent full of branchs (easier to climb). -Success: You shift to the nearest square occuped by the target and it gets -2 for attack rolls against you. When the creature moves, you move with it, staying the same portion of the target's space. -Fail: You fall prone. If you were already climbing the creature, you shift to adjacent square that not include the target's space and the normally rules of falling is applyied. -Keeping upon the target: Every time you receive damage by an attack or the target make an action that the GM think it's plausible, you must make an Athetics OR Acrobatics to don't fall. -Shaking: The target can spend a moving action to try to get rid of the creature. Than the creature must make an Acrobatics vs. DC check to don't fall. OR Than the target make an Strenght or a Dexterity check to get rid of the creature. -Climbing the target: An Athletics vs. DC check, as a normal climbing. I made this rule stealing information from the Rogue 10th Utility Close Quarters and the Ranger and Fighter Paragon Path Giantslayer Utility Ride the Giant Down. And i decided that the creature didn't get combat adv for that, otherwise the rogues will use this everytime. I'd like some advices and corrections please xD.
#2 babyj Aug 05, 2010 13:37:28	I like the mechanics you wrote, but it seems to introduce some mechanics that are otherwise impossible. Due to the following, from PlyrHdbk 1, pg. 283.. MOVING THROUGH OCCUPIED SQUARES✦ Ally: You can move through a square occupied by an ally.✦ Enemy: You normally can’t move through an enemy’s space unless that enemy is helpless or two size categories larger or smaller than you. Moving into a nonhelpless enemy’s space provokes an opportunity attack from that enemy, because you left a square adjacent to the enemy. (Some powers let you move through an enemy’s square without provoking an opportunity attack.)✦ Ending Movement: You can end your movement in an ally’s square only if the ally is prone. You canend your movement in an enemy’s square only if the enemy is helpless. However, Tiny creatures can end their movement in a larger creature’s square. If youdon’t have enough movement remaining to reach asquare you are allowed to be in, your move ends in the last square you could occupy.✦ Standing Up: If you’re prone and in the same square as another creature, see “Stand Up,” page 292, for how to stand up ...I would rule it like so: #1 You cannot enter the enemies space even if it is large (since its not two size categories difference or more, except in the case of a Small creature attacking a Large), but of course you don't want to discourage this sort of thinking at all. Also, when there is no specific to override the general rule, we are bound as DMs to keep in line with the general as much as possible rather than create new specifics to cover the situation (ie - what you have done above gives each player a new set of powers that break the rules). So let's call this an improvised combat maneuver, and just disallow the whole "riding" part due to the lack of a power to override the general. I recommend you look at the rules in DMGuide, pg. 42 for specifics on how to handle these sorts of combat maneuvers. Now having said all that, I agree that the Athletics can be a good choice for which skill to use to get into position for the attack (which should provoke an OppAtk for leaving a threatened square to get close enough) and as for a DC, use something like 12 + 1/2 level of the target (since this sounds like something that would be rather hard, but not dreadfully difficult - so somewhere between base 10 and 15 sounds about right). Once in position, the character must make an attack roll vs AC (most likely), and consult the tables to find an appropriate damage value according to the character's level, and then resolve the attack. With this method, there will be no contingency situations that involve "if this, then that" rules which could have unforeseen consequences.. EDIT: If they specifically want to ride the target, perhaps a grab is the best way to handle this situation, so then there are already mechanics for the sustaining thereof. Keep the character outside the enemy's space though, as per the grab. And instead of immobilizing the target, they instead cause minimal damage as per the improvised attack chart, but the character gets to move with the target by way of an immediate interrupt triggered by a move that involves Athletics like you describe - the effect of which being he or she moves to the nearest square adjacent to the target if successful, or the grab ends if not.
#3 saffer Aug 05, 2010 17:42:26	I thought that the any thing that realy override the general rule was te -2 for attacks to the target creature... Well, as you say, the "entering spaces" thing don't allow the mechanics of my rule, but i don't have another option than overriding it... We can simplify this rule using just the DC and the skills acrobatics and athletics, and let the DM decide which cases it must be used. Talking about the grab, one guy at the Rules forum said he allow his players to make a grab attack in creature 2 sizes larger like you said. It's a pratical soluction, but spending a standard action to it will not be a cleaver decision in combat, so there is no reason to do it inside combat and neither outside the combat because the best option would be a skill challenge. In situations that the DM wants that his players climb the monster, than the monster will have a mechanic to this kind of combat, like powers to push the players, pre-determined DCs for his parts of body. Like a Shadow of the Colossus battle xD
#4 saffer Aug 09, 2010 12:39:44	anyone can comment plis xD ?
#5 Drowmage Aug 09, 2010 15:59:48	Simplify SaFFer. 1 - Grab the target as usual. 2 - Every round make Athletics to Climb as usual. 3 - If the target Escape you fall.