Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 stormonu Feb 09, 2009 13:15:59	I don't know about the rest of you, but of the classic four elements, water is one of the hardest elements to work with for magical effects and abilities. A lot of times, I've seen designers turn to cold attacks for making the water element "cool", but I haven't seen much for water directly that makes it useful beyond a sea-based campaign setting. I'd like to throw out for (non-edition specific) ideas for making water a "cool" element that doesn't involve devolving into cold attacks, mud or evaporating. As a comparison, I've seen for the other elements: Fire: Burn, Burn, Burn. Offensive attacks, defenses that burn folks who get to close and even consuming fire that heals the attacker. Earth: strength and stone. Resisting attacks, improving strength and attacks made of dirt, stone, glass and minerals. Defensive walls made of stone, iron, diamond and other earthy materials. Also, manipulation of the terrain. Air: swiftness and stealth. Invisibility, flight, faster movement and even defensive walls that ward ranged attacks. Water: ??? - I've seen some ideas in other games for it healing and dealing with "fluidity", but nothing really for offense or protection short of a tidalwave. Any ideas?
#2 anubis_reynard Feb 09, 2009 13:22:23	I don't know about the rest of you, but of the classic four elements, water is one of the hardest elements to work with for magical effects and abilities. A lot of times, I've seen designers turn to cold attacks for making the water element "cool", but I haven't seen much for water directly that makes it useful beyond a sea-based campaign setting. I'd like to throw out for (non-edition specific) ideas for making water a "cool" element that doesn't involve devolving into cold attacks, mud or evaporating. As a comparison, I've seen for the other elements: Fire: Burn, Burn, Burn. Offensive attacks, defenses that burn folks who get to close and even consuming fire that heals the attacker. Earth: strength and stone. Resisting attacks, improving strength and attacks made of dirt, stone, glass and minerals. Defensive walls made of stone, iron, diamond and other earthy materials. Also, manipulation of the terrain. Air: swiftness and stealth. Invisibility, flight, faster movement and even defensive walls that ward ranged attacks. Water: ??? - I've seen some ideas in other games for it healing and dealing with "fluidity", but nothing really for offense or protection short of a tidalwave. Any ideas? Water does not resist. You cannot defeat the tide with your fists. Water is good at targetting Fort (with bonuses!) and pushing large numbers of squares, even on a "miss"
#3 daidojitaidoru Feb 09, 2009 13:34:29	L5R gives attaches Strength and Perception to Water in so in addition to scrying, redirecting effects and healing water has the strength boosts. Water is sort of Earths opposite. Earth mages create walls to stop you. Water mages create swamps to catch you. Earth mages raise mighty defenses. Water mages erode defenses down. Earth mages keep damage from affecting the body. Water mages force the toxins out.
#4 SavevsDeath Feb 09, 2009 13:52:58	L5R gives attaches Strength and Perception to Water in so in addition to scrying, redirecting effects and healing water has the strength boosts. Water is sort of Earths opposite. Earth mages create walls to stop you. Water mages create swamps to catch you. Earth mages raise mighty defenses. Water mages erode defenses down. Earth mages keep damage from affecting the body. Water mages force the toxins out. What he said. Thats exactly how i view water, except i could see a lot of high-powered geysers too. And if you havent ever seen someone hit by a stream of pressurized water, or a firehose, they can easily knock someone down or in the case of a pressurized stream cut someone in half.
#5 stormonu Feb 09, 2009 14:22:28	What he said. Thats exactly how i view water, except i could see a lot of high-powered geysers too. And if you havent ever seen someone hit by a stream of pressurized water, or a firehose, they can easily knock someone down or in the case of a pressurized stream cut someone in half. Hmm, some good ideas already; I should have remembered the geyser attack from Decanter of Endless water. What would the "eroding defenses" be? Dispel magic? Minuses to defenses/saves? Debuffing? Let me also ask this; if you were going to make a land-based water creature, what kind of "cool" attacks would you give it? Geyser attacks? Grapple/Grab & drowns? What might it look like besides a giant wave?
#6 disciple_of_juiblex Feb 09, 2009 14:26:25	As i see it... Fire- Offensive, reckless, and sacrifical. Also a double edge sword. even arsonists can die in a fire. Fire also is the only element that consumes. Also as a purifier, burning away impurities. fire distroys, thats all it does (sure a wildfire might leave behind fertile soil but the forest had to die in the first place) , it is the least useful of the elements in my opinion. Earth- Defencive, strong, and pratical. summong stone blocks for sheilds and wraping earth around fists to provide strength. Also manipulates metals making the best blades and armors Air- Deception, no one really appreciates air until they dont have it or is seeking it in its glory. i see Air can take the breath from your lungs, push you around, summon tornados, make peaple fly, and manupulate the weather. Water- Life, in a duality way. Water is needed for all normal wild life and as such is seen as a kind of healer. Water is where we all came from, what our bodies are made up of, and what covers the earth most. Just think of a Watermage who could suck the water out of you leaving a dry husk. Or summoning a spring beneth your feet that pulls you down. Or smiling as he turns raindrops into tiny blades. Or manipulate the water in the body turning his foes into mear puppets. Some bigger effects might be tapping underground spings to form shapes of mightly dragons and unleash them on armies. And once you get out of water itself you have steam, mud, ice, acids, toxins or whatever else that gets lumped into the water group. Its really the most versitile of all the elements.
#7 rexracerjr Feb 09, 2009 14:43:04	Taking Avatar: The Last Airbender into account, water can be used to control the water in enemies bodies, ie "bloodbending". this is useful for control effects. Water can also be formed into whips, and can be use to create barriers.
#8 ikkleste Feb 09, 2009 14:46:32	Cleansing? Quenshing? Eroding? dispels, counterspells, debuffs here perhaps? Movement could be hijacked from air into water too particularly things which shove others around, given the importance of this in 4e i can see lots of pulls, pushes and slides.
#9 inkblot Feb 09, 2009 14:47:33	Watch Avatar. It's great for exploring a very wide range of applications for each element. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iegBUjlPN04 In the "related videos" sidebar there are videos demonstrating other elements. The only thing not shown in this video is healing and blood bending. Water bending can manipulate the water inside living bodies, healing them, desiccating them, or controlling their movements. Offensive blood-bending is a difficult high level technique. Water attacks don't involve a lot of damage. Instead they push, pull, trip, and immobilize (with ice). Defensive water techniques redirect enemy attacks, move the water bender out of danger, and obscure the enemy's senses (with mist). Pure damage attacks are normally single-target (focused jet of water), but most other powers affect an area (big waves, billowing clouds, sweeping water whips, etc.) Ice techniques, in addition to what plain water can do, can mimic earth techniques -- walls, ramparts, shields, and cages. However ice constructions are easier to break, aren't as permanent, and are often just plain weaker (to protect earth's niche). As a side effect, many ice powers create slippery/difficult terrain, or damage creatures just for standing nearby (not as much as fire though). Ice direct damage is in the form of sharp icicles, instead of bashing rocks.
#10 SavevsDeath Feb 09, 2009 14:48:36	Cleansing? Quenshing? Eroding? dispels, counterspells, debuffs here perhaps? Movement could be hijacked from air into water too particularly things which shove others around, given the importance of this in 4e i can see lots of pulls, pushes and slides. Maybe not push/pull/slide, so much as just slide and slow effects from creating swampy areas and whirlpool zone effects that suck anybody inside them toward their center.
#11 stormonu Feb 09, 2009 14:50:24	Cleansing? Quenshing? Eroding? dispels, counterspells, debuffs here perhaps? Movement could be hijacked from air into water too particularly things which shove others around, given the importance of this in 4e i can see lots of pulls, pushes and slides. Perhaps air could focus on beneficial movement (speed boosts to allies, flight and the like) and water focus on dehabilitative movement (slow, pushes and sliding enemies, maybe dominated movement)?
#12 masteraaron Feb 18, 2009 11:46:35	Watch Avatar. It's great for exploring a very wide range of applications for each element. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iegBUjlPN04 Seriously, go watch that video. It's a compilation of some of the best water-bending scenes from Avatar, and Avatar is a great inspiration for ways to use all four of the classical elements in combat. As others have said, Water abilities should include major elements of forced movement and movement restricting status conditions. Its damage types should be physical or cold. Defensively, it should focus on misdirection and obscurement, though with some ice effects like Wall of Ice. Keep those to a minimum, however, to reduce similarities to Earth's obvious affinity for hard barriers. One way to make Water very distinctive would be to give its abilities a form-shifting effect. Basically, you can use this ability in one way as a more water-based ability, or another way as an ice/cold-based ability. Water is unique among the four classic elements in its use of both liquid and solid forms, and this sort of mechanic would highlight that flexibility. However, it would be a lot of work to design and you'd have to be very careful about balance.
#13 tequila_sunrise Feb 18, 2009 13:18:28	I don't know about the rest of you, but of the classic four elements, water is one of the hardest elements to work with for magical effects and abilities. A lot of times, I've seen designers turn to cold attacks for making the water element "cool", but I haven't seen much for water directly that makes it useful beyond a sea-based campaign setting. The "water = cold" thing is a pet peeve of mine because water isn't inherently cold--or hot. Water is a neutralizer; it's flowing and fluid, but it's very hard to change water. Ask a natural scientist, they'll tell you that water has the second highest specific heat capacity of any known compound, which means that raising or lowering its temperature takes a lot of the other temp extreme. Water is incredibly heavy; more so than most solid objects including earth. Water is an almost universal solvent; it corrodes or breaks down just about anything it comes in contact with, given enough time. Unlike most compounds, water becomes lighter when it freezes. Water has a high surface tension, which is what allows certain insects and Jesus lizards to move across the top of it. Pure water is actually useless to living creatures; it's the nutritious ions that are dissolved in the water that sustain life. I don't know if any of that is helpful, but there it is. TS