Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Tzepish Feb 26, 2010 14:49:59	I'm starting a campaign that takes place in mostly urban settings in which the players are all members of a large and powerful assassin's guild. I want the campaign to focus more on political intrigue and covert operations, so I want combat to be rare, fast, and deadly. Whenever I wanted to speed combat up in the past, I'd reduce monster hit points and increase monster damage, which is sort of the same as reducing all hit points across the board (players and monsters/npcs). So, I'm going to run this one with the "All HP totals are halved" rule unless it turns out to have more flaws than merits (ie: if it fails to make combat "rare, fast, and deady", or if it does so at significant cost to balance). In thinking this through, though, I realized the vast number of other system shenanigans that ensue when applying the rule. Below are the things I've noticed, and potential solutions to them. I'd be interested in receiving feedback on these: * In the "1/2 HPs" world, combat ends faster, so the players may have too many powers. This is only an "issue" because it's possible to run out of powers before the combat is over in the current system, and that would be nearly impossible in the "1/2 HPs" world. I actually think this is a *good* thing, and it may encourage players to take more situational and experimental powers. * In the "1/2 HPs" world, Minions become more powerful. Since everyone is nerfed except Minions, they are effectively twice as powerful as they were before.  Potential Solutions:  1.) Change Minion XP so two Minions count as one monster (instead of four Minions).  2.) Halve Minion damage.  3.) Change nothing and accept this as a consequence of the more deadly combat in this world.  I'm leaning toward solution 1. * In the "1/2 HPs" world, in-battle healing is nerfed. Since Healing Surge values are halved but damage is the same, each healing ability (and second wind) restores less HP in relation to the amount of damage you can expect (ie: if a particular healing ability could buy you two hits worth of health, it'll be one-hit now).  Potential Solutions:  1.) Double the healing surge value, and half the number of healing surges. This nerfs non-healing uses for healing surges (for example, Martial Practices)  2.) Allow the characters to spend two healing surges any time they normally could have spent one.  3.) Change nothing and accept this as a consequence of the more deadly combat in this world.  I'm leaning toward solution 3. * In the "1/2 HPs" world, coup-de-grace is much more powerful. Since you only have to do half as much damage as you did previously to score the instant kill, instant kills are much more attainable. Potential Solutions:  1.) Change Coup-de-grace so that it has to deal full HP damage (instead of bloodied value) to get an instant kill.  2.) Change nothing and accept this as a consequence of the more deadly combat in this world.  Since I'm running a story about an assassin's guild, I'm leaning toward solution 2. * In the "1/2 HPs" world, Initiative is much more powerful. Characters go down quickly - when combat lasts only two or three rounds, whoever attacks first is more likely to be the victor. This means Dexterity is more powerful, Warlords are more powerful, and magical items and feats that improve Initative are more powerful.  Potential Solutions:  1.) Allow characters to use the higher of Dexterity or Intelligence to determine their Initiative bonus (like AC and Reflex).  2.) Allow characters to spend an Action Point to reroll Initiative. To balance this with other uses of Action Points, make the reroll 1d10+10 instead of 1d20.  3.) Change nothing and accept this as a consequence of the more deadly combat in this world.  I'm leaning toward Solution 2, since it meshes with the solution I'm using for another problem (two down). * In the "Combat is Rare" world, Daily powers become more powerful, and Encounter powers are nerfed. Since combat almost never takes place more than once in a day, the distinction between these categories becomes meaningless. There's no reason to "save" your Daily powers for more dangerous future encounters, and Encounter powers will never be used more than once in a day. These powers actually don't have to be balanced against each other, except in the case of Utility powers and Paragon/Destiny powers which are the only cases in which the players must choose between them.  Potential Solutions:  1.) Ban Daily Utility powers.  2.) Add a minor bonus for using an Encounter Utility power.  3.) Add a minor cost for using a Daily Utility power.  4.) Allow the player to choose two Encounter Utility Powers each time. For example, at level 2, the player can choose TWO level 2 Encounter Utility Powers or ONE level 2 Daily Utility Power or ONE level 2 At-Will Utility Power.  5.) Eliminate the choice between Encounter and Daily Utility powers by allowing the player to choose one of each. For example, at level 2, the player can choose a level 2 Encounter Utility Power AND a level 2 Daily or At-Will Utility Power.  Since I'm running a campaign in which all the characters should be elite specops assassin types, I'm leaning toward solution 5 to give them all more versatility. * In the "Combat is Rare" world, Action Points are more powerful. Like Daily powers, they don't have to be saved for a dangerous future encounter that day, since there won't be one. Thus, everyone uses an action point every combat. That isn't interesting.  Potential Solutions:  1.) Change nothing, and accept that this is how things are when combat is rare. Use higher difficulty encounters to compensate.  2.) Give Action Points an out-of-combat use to incentivise using them and saving them in varied situations. For example, using an Action point allows you to re-roll a skill check, using 1d10+10 instead of 1d20.  I like solution 2, since it gives the players the ability to use Action Points for activities they will be doing often - skill challenges. * In the "Combat is Rare" world, reaching a milestone is nearly impossible.  Since combat will almost never happen more than once in a day, you'll never hit a milestone.  This makes magical rings useless.  Potential Solutions:  1.) Players have always "reached a milestone".  2.) Players reach a milestone when the GM says so. This can be after learning a significant clue or accomplishing a minor goal.  3.) Players reach a milestone after spending an Action Point.  Since I like the tactical uses for solution 3, and because it synergizes with solution 2 from the previous problem (Action Point use), that's probably what I'm going to do.
#2 blacksheepcannibal Feb 26, 2010 15:49:55	In the "1/2 HPs" world, Minions become more powerful. I'm not quite sure how minions are much more powerful in contrast to other monsters. RAW; minions go down in one hit. "1/2 HPs world" minions also go down in one hit. The difference is players are effectively dealing double damage, taking down non-minion monsters so much faster. In the "1/2 HPs" world, in-battle healing is nerfed.  I would recommend halving the hit-point pools, halving the bloodied value, but leave healing surges the same - effectively causing your surge value to equal your bloodied value. That is, if a character has 100 HP RAW, in the "1/2 hp world" they have 50 hit points; bloodied value is 25, and their surge value is 25 hit points. If you were to reduce surge value to 17, you may find that players pick up that healing potions suddenly are much more powerful, oftentimes better than surge value for several levels.
#3 athistaur Feb 27, 2010 7:25:54	* In the "Combat is Rare" world, Daily powers become more powerful, and Encounter powers are nerfed.  * In the "Combat is Rare" world, reaching a milestone is nearly impossible. Hello, I can propose a further solution for this, which you haven't listed yourself. * Daily Powers do not recharge on an extended rest, but rather at the start of a gaming session. * Milestones do not reset on an extended rest, but rather at the start of a gaming session. This works if your combat is "about 2-3 fights per session" rare. You're best of to handwave the in-game explanation. This system works for our  group and at least to other groups are doing the same with success. For example, you have a fight, some dailys and encounter powers are thrown. After the fight there are in-game days of finding more clues and finally another quick fight. The encounter powers are still there, but the dailys are still gone. And on top of it you even have reached a milestone after the fight. Still, this will not work if your combat is down to "once a session" rare. And i like to voice my opinion that encounter powers will not be nerfed in this szenario. Your main problem lies with the strong buff on daily powers.
#4 Hebitsuikaza Feb 27, 2010 7:49:32	You missed the biggest problem. When you do it this way Strikers are WAAAAAAAAAAY more powerful and Leaders and Defenders frankly suck so hard it is difficult to imagine why anyone would bother playing them (with the obvious exception of those that are effectively Strikers as well as Defenders). The reason for this is because Strikers deal high damage, but are generally protected from ever losing hit points either because they have high defenses or because they can move out of the enemy's reach before or after dealing damage. Strikers are designed to nearly always get initiative and it isn't all that unusual for a good encounter power to deal 1/4-1/2 of an enemy's health. This means it is going to be quite common for a Striker to get initiative and score a 1-hit kill before anyone else has a chance to act. Leaders, due to healing suddenly being nerfed, obviously aren't much worth playing. Their other abilities can't do much but increase the Striker and otherwise their life is cut in half. Defenders should be obvious, their biggest advantage is their hitpoints. They are hitpoint sponges more or less. You cut hitpoints in half, it cuts their role in half. Although you can build a Fighter who is effectively a Striker, a true defender will find that they suddenly find themself feel quite useless. Controllers.... well, already as they are if they start taking damage they drop quickly. However, with only half hit points they are probably going to be spending more time unconscious than conscious since the first hit in any battle will probably take them out. The Minion thing isn't actually a problem. They aren't twice as effective really-- they were 1-hit kills before, they are 1-hit kills now. There are only a few things in the game that deal 1 damage on hits, so generally people were putting more than 1 point of damage towards taking them out (so they effectively have more than 1 hitpoint if you consider hitpoints the amount of damage needed to take them out). I might not be explaining it the best I can, but Minions aren't any more "twice as effective" than any other monster is.
#5 Qube Feb 27, 2010 10:12:17	mostly agreeing with Hebitsuikaza In the "1/2 HPs" world, Minions become more powerful. I'm not quite sure how minions are much more powerful in contrast to other monsters. RAW; minions go down in one hit. "1/2 HPs world" minions also go down in one hit. The difference is players are effectively dealing double damage, taking down non-minion monsters so much faster. hit points are a way of telling, how much damage someone needs to get before they die. . In 1/2 hp world, virtually, every attack deals double damage. For a creature you only need half the number of normal attacks. However, this is not changed for a minion. in a full hp world, a minion goes down ... 4 times faster then a normal enemy? Well, in a half hp world, a minion only goes down 2 times faster; not 4. Hence, minions get a huge power boost. Hebitsuikaza, you said it yourself: with an encounter power, a striker could kill a creature in one hit. That means minions have the same hit points as normal monsters! (obviously, only if you spend an encounter powen on them, but I hope you see the point)
#6 blacksheepcannibal Feb 28, 2010 16:01:09	in a full hp world, a minion goes down ... 4 times faster then a normal enemy? Well, in a half hp world, a minion only goes down 2 times faster; not 4. Hence, minions get a huge power boost. You're not making minions any more powerful, you're making non-minions easier to kill. In a full hp world, a minion dies from one hit. In a 1/2 hp world, a minion goes down it from one hit. Minions go down -exactly- as fast in either world. Regularly, a monster goes down in (say, for the purpose of theory) 4 hits. In a 1/2 hp world, a monster goes down in 2 hits. This means your monsters are easier to kill, not that your minions are more difficult to kill. (Admitted, this is balanced out by monsters effectively dealing twice as much damage). To put it another way; it's not that minions now have just as many hit points as monsters, it's that monsters now have just as many hit points as minions.
#7 Qube Mar 02, 2010 6:53:00	This means your monsters are easier to kill, not that your minions are more difficult to kill. meh, that depends on your point of view. Maybe in absolutes, they didn't change; but relatively, they grew more powerfull. Hence, this is a valid issue in consequences of 1/2 a HPs houserule.
#8 Tzepish Mar 03, 2010 19:08:03	You missed the biggest problem. When you do it this way Strikers are WAAAAAAAAAAY more powerful and Leaders and Defenders frankly suck so hard it is difficult to imagine why anyone would bother playing them (with the obvious exception of those that are effectively Strikers as well as Defenders). The reason for this is because Strikers deal high damage, but are generally protected from ever losing hit points either because they have high defenses or because they can move out of the enemy's reach before or after dealing damage. Strikers are designed to nearly always get initiative and it isn't all that unusual for a good encounter power to deal 1/4-1/2 of an enemy's health. This means it is going to be quite common for a Striker to get initiative and score a 1-hit kill before anyone else has a chance to act.. Excellent analysis, I hadn't thought of this stuff. I think Strikers are buffed and Defenders are nerfed.  I can fix Leaders by making the Healing Surge = bloodied value instead of 1/2 bloodied value, and after talking with my players, we've decided to do this and simply halve the number of healing surges.  Controllers, as you note, aren't much affected by this change. I've also decided that if these changes aversely affect the game, I reserve the right to simply go "bam, nevermind! Full HPs for everyone!" heh.  My players have been warned that this is an experiment and that I'll be doing my best to keep it fun and fair.
#9 babyj Mar 04, 2010 17:21:13	aye: subscribing. I thought of a few of these reasons why NOT to do it, and could tell there were more. some adjusting will make it a great variant, shorter combats is definitely a big plus for a PbP'er like me. so I'd like to see how deep the rabbit hole goes
#10 babyj Mar 10, 2010 9:40:20	How IS the half HP rule working for you and your players Tzepish? Curious if your adjustments evened things out or not. Also, does anyone have ideas as alternatives to 1/2 or 3/4 hps as a way to get around the punching bag syndrome?
#11 blacksheepcannibal Mar 10, 2010 17:52:30	While not the original poster, I have been experimenting with the last couple of fights using the half-hit point rule. This is what my group and I, personally, have found. It's fast: No really, it's fast. Some fights are over in less than 3 rounds. That gives a lot of people 2 actions and that is it for that entire encounter. It's so fast, that some monsters don't even get a chance to use their abilities to any real degree. Arty and Skirmishers, Controllers and Strikers hurt: Brutes can't get into position fast enough before they die, Soldiers last a little longer, but skirmishers with their fast movement and hard hitting damage really work on the players, and arty that did mediocre damage from a distance now really stings. Conversely, Controllers who did a little AoE damage now do a lot; Strikers, of course, hit for tremendous damage on their encounter powers, and daily powers can be more or less show enders. Fewer, higher level monsters, not more lower ones: With missing being so painful, having a monster that almost always hits, and is also much more difficult to hit makes them last so much longer and be so much more threatening. The extra hit points help considerably too. Almost every monster is seen as a threat as well; you really don't have to worry about the @will-grind-fest that plagues higher level monsters in full-hit-point encounters (because they want to down this dangerous beast as soon as possible before it knocks them silly, and because so few hit points means they never really suffer the so-called padded-sumo effect). This also cuts down on AoE blasts (that do 1/3 of the monster's hit point values) hitting so many monsters - there are fewer there to hit. Bloodied happens way more frequently: On both sides. If a monster isn't blooded with the first hit, it will be with the second. It might last past the 3rd hit, it might not. Powers that cue off of bloodied happen more often, but you have less of a chance of using them. Healing is important: With so much damage being dealt, especially for defenders that try to get onto the front line fast, being able to be healed (especially with minor instead of standard actions, or in addition to other actions) is significant. Especially against monsters with multiple attacks, defenders can go down -fast- (and monsters that are higher level make sure they hit even defenders a lot of times). Having healers that can get that Defender back from having only 5 hit points left after the first round really matters. Defenders are more effective: Most all defenders share something in common: punishment. When a marked target picks a different player to mash on, there is that holy light, sudden flash of a blade, or teleport that suddenly interferes. In regular world, ow, he hit me for 7 damage, whatever. In 1/2 hit point world, that's a lot more damage than it seems. On top of that, with each action being so important, getting interrupt actions or opportunity actions makes you that much more effective. Temporary hit points and resistances are effectively doubled: This one speaks for itself. Extra actions are king: When you only get 2-3 actions per fight, even a single action point makes you 30% more effective in any single fight. Monsters with multiple attacks are especially dangerous, far more so than in full-hit-point fights.
#12 Tzepish Mar 30, 2010 18:31:04	blacksheep covered the things I had noticed (as well as other keen observations).  I mostly noticed that damage-dealing controllers are much more powerful than I expected, and enemies die before they can get into position to threaten the team. I'm considering halving HPs *before* adding the constitution score, just to give everyone a bit more HP.