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| #1cluefulJan 02, 2009 19:32:56 | Has anyone ever tried any of these new 4E races from these third party publishers? I downloaded one (for fairly cheap) and it seems pretty good. Just curious because it might be cool to write stuff for these guys (easier to get published than going threw WotC) , if people like to use them. I don't know anyone who does though. here's the link I found: http://www.rpgnow.com/index.php?cPath=4708 plus, its easy to develop homebrew games around them too. The one I downloaded was a skeleton PC race, and they add a lot of flavor to my game. |
| #2NyronusJan 02, 2009 21:21:20 | Has anyone ever tried any of these new 4E races from these third party publishers? I downloaded one (for fairly cheap) and it seems pretty good. Just curious because it might be cool to write stuff for these guys (easier to get published than going threw WotC) , if people like to use them. I don't know anyone who does though. here's the link I found: I only looked at the Undead and the Insect people. The insect people's fluff is pretty cool, but their racial powers are sub-par at best. A Str vs. AC attack? Without Bonuses? With only 1d4 flat damage? Without a racial bonus to hit? As a Standard Action? Even as an at-will, why would anyone use that? Looking at their feats, they get better, and while I like the idea, it seems that some of the Metamorphosis feats break the game. Fly (hover) 6? for a single Feat? I also looked at the Obitu, and got about as far as the +4 Dex boost. A Rouge with a natural 22 Dex? Can we say over-powered? I would not pay money for these products. They appear unbalanced in the extreme. |
| #3cluefulJan 02, 2009 22:16:15 | I only looked at the Undead and the Insect people. I dunno. The +4 bonus doesn't really do the same thing as it did in 3E. I use them in my game, and it really doesn't seem overpowered at all. Besides, they have alternative rules in there for people who don't like the bonus, so the point you make is kinda moot. As for the insect guys (just downloaded them) yeah, the attack thing seems maybe underpowered...but the feats more than make up for them, and its still an attack you can make when your hands are full...which is handy. They also have other powers, the attack thing seems more of just a sidenote than a feature. As for flying breaking the game at 11th level...I just don't see that. That's a bit of an exaggeration at best. Really, I have 5th level people flying around in my game...and any DM who can't handle that should likely not be a DM. Its not an unbalanced thing...its a form of movement! Its something that maybe 3E had issues with, but 4e has solved that. To say its overbalanced in the extreme is a bit unfair, I think, especially since you pick only 2 races out of 5, and it doesn't seem like you actually read through either one. Its ok to have a strong opinion, but sheesh, at least be reasonable. Again, they are fairly cheap...and any DM can modify to fit their game. I thinks there is some good ideas in there. Worth the money, at least...good art, good stories & concepts. Mechanics can easily be adjusted, though I don't see a real need to adjust them for my game. |
| #4cluefulJan 02, 2009 23:43:46 | Fly (hover) 6? for a single Feat? Looking back at it, I don't see a fly 6 hover anywhere. I see a fly 3 hover, and I see a fly 6, but no fly 6 hover. Perhaps you were mistaken? |
| #5ceiling90Jan 03, 2009 1:51:34 | Hmmm... I dunno, I think it's a lot easier to make up races, or adapt races from the multitude of books from the older editions, heck even other games. In fact, Race building is lot simpler than class building. |
| #6cluefulJan 03, 2009 7:20:16 | Hmmm... I dunno, I think it's a lot easier to make up races, or adapt races from the multitude of books from the older editions, heck even other games. In fact, Race building is lot simpler than class building. True enough I guess. But this is less work, and comes with pictures and formatted for the players. Saves me a lot of work really. And its pretty creative stuff to, not just recycled concepts. Hey, in reality I could come up with a whole new game system (and I have), but sometimes a little help is appreciated. And I can afford 2$ even in this economy. Really, even if it only took me a half hour to make a balanced race (which it actually takes more), that still costs more (at minimum wage, though I feel my time is worth even more than that) than the download. That's how I see it anyway. |
| #7NyronusJan 03, 2009 14:40:23 | I dunno. The +4 bonus doesn't really do the same thing as it did in 3E. I use them in my game, and it really doesn't seem overpowered at all. Besides, they have alternative rules in there for people who don't like the bonus, so the point you make is kinda moot. The +4 to Dex may not be a huge problem for most classes, but it sure as hell is more than worth it to take this race if your a Rouge or Bow Ranger. Consider: With this boost you will have a +1 more to your attack stat, your AC, your initiative, and your damage than possible with any other race. That is a lot. It won't break the game right open, but it may cause problems. Also, even if the attack can be made with hands full, wouldn't it be better to attack with whatever is in your hand, whatever it is? Improvised weapons are 1d4 + Str Mod, versus 1d4 flat. If the attack was a minor action, I would be cool with it. Otherwise, its just a waste. Look at the second metamorphosis feat, it says Fly (hover) 6. The problem is that you suddenly have a way to get flying at-will, on top of every single other ability and perk for taking that form, for a single feat. Fly (clumsy) 4, might have been fine for a feat, but, hover? A much more balanced version of the race would perhaps have been: The Entobian Ability Scores: +2 Dex, +2 Cha Size: Small Speed: 6 squares Vision: Low-Light _______________________________ Languages: Common, and one language of your choice Skill Bonus: +2 Dungoneering, +2 Diplomacy Gripping Claws: Gain a natural +3 bonus to climb and balance checks. Entobian Ecology: You gain use of either the Mid-leg Flurry attack or the Web Burst attack once per encounter. Mid-Leg Flurry Entobian Racial Power. Encounter + Free Action, Meele Touch Trigger: You hit successfully with a melee attack. Attack: Dex +2 vs. AC. Increase to Dex +4 at 11th level and Dex +6 at 21st. Hit: 2d4 + Dex Modifier Damage Web Burst Entobian Racial Power. Encounter + Standard Action, Range 1 in 5 Attack: Dex +2 vs. AC. Increase to Dex +4 at 11th level and Dex +6 at 21st. Hit: Target is immobolized until the end of your next turn. Aftereffect: Target is slowed until the end of your next turn. Metamorphosis feats open up new encounter powers which take the place of these two. Such as: Surge of Flight: Entobian Racial Power. Encounter + Standard Action, Personal Effect: Gain Fly 4 (hover) until the end of your next turn. You may sustain this with a minor action. That may need some tweaking, but it makes a more stable and useful race for the entire course of the game, as opposed to a race which was simple meh through heroic, and then turns amazing at paragon+. That took a grand total of ten minutes of thought and fifteen of typing. Not that hard, now is it? And really, one should not complain, nor accuse others of being unreasonable, or of being bad DMs, however implicitly, when one asks for comment. You presented me with material and I commented. Deal. You can throw back a counter argument, but all you really did was accuse me of being a poor DM because I didn't like a race with an at-will fly-hover power (After all, I'm no DM if I can't handle flying). Also, proper English helps. For the record, I am not against a race with the ability to fly, but it has to come at a cost. A race with horrible mediocre abilities that suddenly gets to surmount all sorts of traps and the like at the cost of a feat, plus a whole slew of other benefits? Sucks at heroic, but get awesome at paragon? This is the very definition of unbalanced. In the end, if you want them in your game, and you make them work and are no more broken than the other races, fine, whatever. If they work for your go ahead. I could honestly care less. The problem is that you asked the forum for their opinions, and, by proxy, mine, and then get upset when I come up with an answer you don't like? If your certain these races rock, why bother asking us for our opinions? Really? You asked a question, and you got an answer. |
| #8cluefulJan 03, 2009 17:13:38 | The +4 to Dex may not be a huge problem for most classes, but it sure as hell is more than worth it to take this race if your a Rouge or Bow Ranger. Consider: Sheesh! Touched a nerve did I? "Proper English"?...this from a person that thinks rogue is spelled "rouge"? Anyway, yeah, you had some good ideas, as undoubtedly many people have when looking at any race and wanting to add their own flavor. For the record: 1. The +4 is moot because if you don't like it, then you can use the alternative rules presented in the text. Sure, a ROGUE (not a walking cheek cosmetic) would be quite effective with a 22 DEX, if you maxed him out that way, but its ONLY a +1 bonus. If you absolutely HAVE to max out your character just to get a +1 bonus, never mind that a few other races from WotC (especially the newer ones), when maxed out are actually better for a rogue, then all power to you. Then again, a DM working with such players would likely opt for the alternative rules just to discourage stupidity. 2. The copy you have is either hard to read, or you have an outdated version (pirated perhaps? or maybe you are reading it from that teeny tiny preview...cant afford 2$?). There is no fly 6 hover. There is a fly 3 hover. I checked it several times. The farfalite has fly hover 3, but only when not encumbered or bloodied. The DOWNSIDE to the race, that if you want it to work a certain way, you have to sacrifice feats. I think that is perfectly balanced and kind of clever really. If you want to attack with your midlegs effectively, you need to take a feat or two. 3. I tend to view the midleg attack is a minor feature of the larva version of the race. Not only does your alternative make the race too powerful, but it completely throws all of the other flavor off for the race. Web? these are caterpillars not spiders...I suppose you could make that work in SOME game out there, but your example is both a little too powerful and not within the spirit of what I feel the author was trying to portray. There is a lot more to a race than just powers and mechanics. I feel you have missed that point with these powers. 4. Never said that you were a bad DM. I said only a bad DM can't handle flying characters. If you can not handle flying characters, you likely need more experience as a DM. In D&D, especially 4e, I see flying more as a movement option rather than a power-mechanic. In many ways, flying can be a disadvantageous form of movement. 5. I asked because I had not bought the other races at that point and was looking for two opinions: one did anyone else see these other races...and what did you think of them. Obviously I already purchased the skeleton one, and already expressed liking it, so your focus on it wasn't exactly asked for. The second thing is I was wondering if it would be useful writing for third party publishers, as is their really any demand for that material. Of course, you skimmed through my post, just like you obviously skimmed through the books you are on about. 6. The only thing that upset me is that you offered a rather heavy handed opinion with false and exaggerated information to back you up. Actually, it was bordering on a flame. Are you some writer they shafted or something? It seems like you are personally invested in hating 3rd party material. That's fine, but I am looking for a more unbiased opinion...thanks! |
| #9NyronusJan 03, 2009 22:57:09 | Sheesh! Touched a nerve did I? "Proper English"?...this from a person that thinks rogue is spelled "rouge"? Anyway, yeah, you had some good ideas, as undoubtedly many people have when looking at any race and wanting to add their own flavor. If the race is so bunk it needed alternative rules upon publication, why bother paying? Also, I apologize for transposing two letters. I am such a dirty hypocrite, aren't I? The problem doesn't even extend to just Rogues. Any class that uses dex gains a huge boon by that bonus. The problem lies with the fact that point buy costs rise as value increases. To move from 12 to 13 takes a point. To move from 14 to 15 takes two. The cheapest way to get an 18 in a stat at this point is plainly to take a 16 with a plus two racial. That's nine points down the drain. With the undead race, it is only a five point investment. To demonstrate: Elven Archer-Ranger: Str: 13 (3) Con: 11 (1) Dex: 18 (16+2) (9) Int: 10 Wis: 16 (9) Cha: 8 9+9+3+1=22 Obitu Archer-Ranger: 14 (5) 13 (3) 18 (14+4) (5) 10 16 (9) 8 5+3+5+9=22 By raw numbers alone, the Obitu is a better ranger than the elf, and even though its ability is not suited for a ranger class, all of those extra stats lying around can be put to just as much, if not better, use. Of course, you are right on that single count. The Obitu is not suited for a Rouge or Ranger as far as abilities are concerned. Since their power is focused on oppourtunity attacks, let us see if we can't make it work for a Fighter, arguably the most OA-centric class in the game. Razor Claw Shifter Fighter (Heavy Blade) Str: 18 (16+2) (9) Con: 13 (3) Dex: 14 (5) Int: 8 Wis: 14 (5) Cha: 10 9+3+5+5=22 Obitu Fighter (Heavy Blade) Str: 18 (16) Con: 11 (1) Dex: 14 (10+4) (0) Int: 8 Wis: 14 (5) Cha: 10 16+1+5=22 Now, while the Shifter came out ahead (although not by much), this demonstrates the ultimate problem. The higher the stat boosted, and the greater the heights the stat boosted to, the more worthwhile the investment. So, if the Obitu are to go the optimized route, they have a far narrower range of options than other races, which, in the end, ends up giving them either far better, or moderately worse stats. This disparity between extremes of quality (even in an optimized state), is what we call unbalanced. You can throw up your arms and state that "but they have alternative statistics!," but the problem is still that they needed a fix before even being published, and the writers knew. You can then throw up your hands and shout that role-play is far more important than number crunching, but then why are you paying money for the numbers anyway? Why not just free-form role-play? DnD is role-play based on a numerical system. If the system begins to break, so day the role-play around it. Hence the problem of 3rd edition. If you play the game as is, you can't toss out one in name of the other. 2. The copy you have is either hard to read, or you have an outdated version (pirated perhaps? or maybe you are reading it from that teeny tiny preview...cant afford 2$?). There is no fly 6 hover. There is a fly 3 hover. I checked it several times. The farfalite has fly hover 3, but only when not encumbered or bloodied. The DOWNSIDE to the race, that if you want it to work a certain way, you have to sacrifice feats. I think that is perfectly balanced and kind of clever really. If you want to attack with your midlegs effectively, you need to take a feat or two. First off, I love the little insinuations that I either pirated my copy or am too poor to afford it. I didn't pay because I had the preview in front of me and it did (and does not) look worth paying for. Your actual logic is also faulty. Look at the Dragonborn's breath weapon. It is viable out of the box and only gets better with feats. Look at Elven Accuracy. Viable out of the box and only gets better with feats. Look at Mid-Leg attack. Completely worthless out of the box and only gets marginally better with feat investiture. Unbalanced. You will not hit AC at epic levels without that +6 to hit most racial attacks provide. Heck, your unlikely to hit AC with it. The attack is bunk. Nothing you say can change that. And if I got the fly 3 wrong, I am sorry. That was my mistake. Still doesn't change the fact that At-will flight unbalances the game. The worse case scenario is if it was in the hands of a long range striker, say, a warlock. The melee people can't touch him, and his is just as vulnerable to artillery as he was before, so over all he is in a better situation. But then what if you counter that ability with, say, a swarm of small flying skirmishers? Then the warlock won't fly because he'd be dead in minutes. So the ability becomes a complete wash because you either give him a huge tactical advantage, or you have to set up the encounter to completely null and void his powers. Now, if you had an all flying campaign, that would be a different beast altogether. 3. I tend to view the midleg attack is a minor feature of the larva version of the race. Not only does your alternative make the race too powerful, but it completely throws all of the other flavor off for the race. Web? these are caterpillars not spiders...I suppose you could make that work in SOME game out there, but your example is both a little too powerful and not within the spirit of what I feel the author was trying to portray. There is a lot more to a race than just powers and mechanics. I feel you have missed that point with these powers. Actually, caterpillars do spin web. Its called silk. You know, like silk worms? Like the race's other ability printed on the page? Also, the reason I focused on mechanics is because A) I already stated that I liked the fluff, ergo, it was irrelevant to my continued commentary, and B) This is mechanics forum. If you want to talk fluff, we can go over to Campaign Workshop. There is where you talk fluff. 4. Never said that you were a bad DM. I said only a bad DM can't handle flying characters. If you can not handle flying characters, you likely need more experience as a DM. In D&D, especially 4e, I see flying more as a movement option rather than a power-mechanic. In many ways, flying can be a disadvantageous form of movement. No, but your statements where blatantly implicative that if someone had a problem with at-will flight, it was because they were a poor DM. I had a problem with at-will flight, ergo... 5. I asked because I had not bought the other races at that point and was looking for two opinions: I could care less. It took five minutes of skimming and I found two major problems in two books. That does not bode well. The amount that I read has no effect on the existence of mistakes I found in that short amount of time. 6. The only thing that upset me is that you offered a rather heavy handed opinion with false and exaggerated information to back you up. Actually, it was bordering on a flame. Are you some writer they shafted or something? It seems like you are personally invested in hating 3rd party material. That's fine, but I am looking for a more unbiased opinion...thanks! I do love how in all this time instead of dealing with me on a mechanical level, you simply toss wide assertions and red herrings while cheekily imply that I have some sort of irrational personal problem, that I am a jaded employee or a troll. Instead of proving your points with logic, you instead resort to what we rhetoriticians refer to as an ad hominem attack. It means, instead of refuting my so called and obviously "false and exaggerated information," you simply turned to the crowd and said "Don't listen to him. He probably is a troll and has some sort of grudge!" in an attempt to discredit me without actually engaging my ideas. No where have you been able to completely discount my objections and everywhere your posts are littered with red-herrings. If you want to prove me wrong, do it. Do it straight with logic and numbers, otherwise I suggest that you find someone else to play with. |
| #10cluefulJan 03, 2009 23:58:26 | Originally Posted by Nyronus I am dealing with someone who is reading the little preview pane? Sorry, I feel you are missing the point here, and that is not a red herring. You are arguing mechanics, and I don't feel that mechanics are important. I didn't pay for mechanics. As you said, anyone can spout out mechanics fairly easily. I paid for the flavor, the art, and the concept. Every person feels differently. I happen to feel a +4 bonus is fine, and therefore their rules appeal to me. They obviously appeal to someone, and the writers saw that. They also saw that it might not appeal to those that dwell solely on mechanics...and so they added something in there for that too. Its called an option. You can show me a thousand charts on why you think its unbalanced, and I will still happily point at the text that says if you care about that, then use this instead. I know caterpillars spin silk, I am an amateur entomologist. They don't spin webs however, and certainly not the type that are intended to trap other creatures. Shooting web as an offensive doesn't seem in the spirit of the creature. Anyone can skim through anything and pick out things that they think is wrong (especially out of context). You seem to be fairly good at that. Great. I am not looking for that. I am looking for an unbiased opinion of someone who actually read the full text seriously, and not the little preview box. I am also not looking for the opinion of someone who only cares about the mechanics of something and disregards the rest. Not that I feel that you have a firm grasp of mechanics, but I feel that you definitely value them greatly. You tend to leave out large chunks of information, many of which is pertinent to the calculations. You also assign value to certain things as if they are objective calculations, when they are certainly not. I disagree with just about every assessment you make (usually because you completely fail or are unwilling to encompass the entire argument). If having 3 gold is better than 2 gold, then the race with 3 gold is better. But never mind the race has to give all his gold away at first level, no no, that wouldn't be pertinent to the argument. Just like yes, +1 is better than no +1, but never mind everything else about the race, including the negatives, or the positives of the other race that you are referring to. Any good game designer knows there is more to any good race, class, or concept than just the numbers. Ok, you want an example, heres an obvious one: you left out the +2 wisdom that an elf gets from your calculations. While even if you add them, the elf comes up SLIGHTLY short in those numbers, you also leave out the REST of the elven mechanics that I feel more than makes up for a slight ability score advantage. With the at-will flight argument you leave out the fact that flight, things that let you fly or levitate, and flying creatures are fairly common when dealing with 11th level and above. I suppose in a game where no-one else flies, has ranged weapons, or knows how to deal with fliers...then maybe you might have an issue or point. Again flying is a MOVEMENT OPTION and its an option available to a huge population of PCs, NPCs, and monsters in a 11th level and higher game. Your arguments are riddled with more of the same...and since you are as a prolific writer as you are at adding false, exaggerated, biased information and half-truths-- I really don't have time to list each point by point. False information: 1.They have a 6 fly (hover). Its actually a 3 fly (hover) 2. Mid-leg attack is a STR attack. Its actually a Dex attack. Exaggeration : Mid-leg attack is useless. (You can still attack with it if your hands are full or bound, its a dex attack too, so it might be a better melee option in certain circumstances.) There is a lot of biased information presented, but its too long to list here. Obviously, we will have to agree to disagree here. I don't want to argue anymore, because frankly our gaming philosophies are vastly different. I get the point; you hate it and think its unbalanced. Good. Obviously a lot of people disagree with you, or the entobian wouldn't be one of the top selling items over there....and everyone can see the preview. On another board, they claim to have sold over 200 copies in two weeks. They also got some pretty good reviews all over the place. The entobian and the obitu are that publisher's top selling items. So I guess a lot of people just don't value the same things that you do. There...is that the "facts" you were looking for? (I can provide links if you want...) And before you go into a "why did you post here then?" tirade, I found out this information AFTER I posted, with a little research. The nature of this thread was research. Thanks for not being helpful. |