Crafting and Profession skill houserule. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Crafting and Profession skill houserule.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
gamileo
Jun 04, 2008 23:35:43 How do you think this should be handled? I was thinking I could give my player who wants to have blacksmith as his background a trained skill blacksmith and have it int based. However, should he really have +6 to blacksmith and then go up every other level? At what point should the player be able to make really high quality stuff easily? So DC 25, at level 20 he could make this half the time. Does that sound right?

I am thinking that if my players want a profession or craft, they get it for free at character generation as per their background. IF they pick it up later they start out as apprentice, so only have their int modifier bonus, then they can work their way to journeyman and get their 1/2 class bonus, and then become master and get trained bonus.

So int of 14, level 6 paladin takes up blacksmithing. At first he can only have a +2, so he isn't very good, but he keeps trying, he makes daggers and such. Then after 2 levels, he gets good enough (as long as he is roleplaying it) to become a journey man, so +2 from int, +4 from levels. So he has a +6, he can make ok swords and such, DC 15's and occasional DC 20's, rarely DC 25s. Then at level 10 or so, or more, maybe higher, because it takes longer to become a master, he gets trained bonus. +2 from int, +(1/2)level, +5. So lets say he masters it at level 16, he would then have +13.

However, if I do it this way I run into why is the player who started at level 6 just as good as the player who has been doing it his whole life?

I think the same can be said for professions too. What are other opinions?
#2
JonOz
Jun 07, 2008 18:09:50 I have a couple of house rules covering skills.

Languages- you get a number of extra languages equal to your Int Bonus. This important for my campaign because there are a lot more languages and no true Common.

Utility Skills- you get a number of Utility Skills equal 1 + Int Bonus. Utility skills include "lost" skills like Appraise, Gambling, Perform, Knowledge (other than the ones in the new PHB), Craft and Professions. Taking one of these makes you trained. You can also use a Utility Skill for an additional language.
#3
thecasualoblivion
Jun 07, 2008 23:36:06 Here is what I do:

1. Players are encouraged to put together a background, but within reason. Somebody who lists themselves as an accomplished cook, sailor, blacksmith, dancer, tailor, and gambler is going to get some "Evil Eye" from me.

2. When situations come up in game that aren't covered by PHB skills and I want a roll, its a straight ability check vs. DC.

3. If a non-skill situation comes up that the character's background covers, like doing something on a ship when your character used to be a sailor, you get the +5 trained bonus.
#4
taski
Jun 08, 2008 2:34:05 I'm considering doing it like this:

1. Characters get 3 + Int bonus background skills for free at 1st level. You can get more later on at any point, but the process requires time and proper resources (tutors, libraries, bardic colleges, etc.). New background skills can also be given out as rewards. Example: "You've just finished telling the Chief about your adventure when he offers to let the party stay with his clan for a while and learn some traditional skills from his people. They know weaving, leatherworking, cooking, dancing, and drum playing, and the shaman knows a few rituals."

2. Provided you come up with a good RP justification (DM retains veto power), you can use your background skill as part of another skill check, and get a +2 bonus to that check. Example: "I try to impress the Duchess with my beautiful lute-playing." "Okay, that's a Diplomacy check with a +2 for using your lute. You got a total of 8? Sorry, it seems she's not in the mood for music."

3. When not incorporating your background skill into another skill, you count as trained in your background skill, getting the usual 1/2 your level, ability bonus, and +5 to the check. Example (during a wilderness journey skill challenge): "I'll make a stew from the rabbit our ranger caught." "Okay, that's a Cooking check. You got a total of 33? It's the best rabbit stew that's ever existed. You all regain those healing surges you lost when you fell down the rapids."
#5
Mindforge
Jun 08, 2008 14:13:15 I tried to create a 'Secondary Skills' house rule that is close to the 'trained' basis that the current system uses. So, I have decided that all characters get 2 secondary skills. When selected the secondary skills counts as trained. Instead of getting a secondary skill a player may instead choose to 'specialize' in a primary skill gaining a +5 trained bonus in a portion of that skill - let's say jumping for athletics or hiding for stealth. Some of my secondary skills include;

Craft
Profession
Specialization

I would break it all down right here but I am still working on it and decided I would share this portion. If I remember, I will return and finish it off.
#6
Pangur
Jun 10, 2008 3:18:25 I'll be going back to a skill system more akin to that of 3E, with a number of skill points (probably 6+Int regardless of class, 1 point per rank for class skills, 2 points for others, capped at level + 3 (no cap difference between class skills and non class skills)) to be used at every level, ditching the + half level bonus and the training bonus. I'll probably also have to fiddle a bit with DCs and specific mechanics to make it work properly.
#7
Thought
Jun 10, 2008 8:53:10 While I haven't had time to test this out thoroughly, I am planning on representing profession and crafting skills as circumstance bonuses (as this helps keep the simplicity of the current skills system, for players at least, but still provides a bit of the depth of the older system and it helps ties in their backgrounds to the game a little bit more).

Example; Trogdor the Ranger lived in an outlying village. Coming from a poor family, his family had to hunt and gather most of their food and resources. As such, he learned from an early age how to craft simple arrows and bows.

I read that character description and decide that Trogdor should get a +5 circumstance bonus from his past to any "craft" check (which would otherwise be a basic ability check) for simple bows and arrows, but maybe only a +1 or +2 if he was trying to make something fancy (a re-curved or composite bow, a bow made out of horn, etc).

On the other hand, if Trogdor had lived in a permanent settlement and was a Fletcher by trade, I'd give him a +10 circumstance bonus to fletching (but nothing, or maybe just a +1, to making a bow).

Such circumstance bonuses would increase if the player tried to develop it more in game (every night he'd try crafting more arrows, or the sort) but as crafting or professions aren't really something that an adventurer would be devoting his time to, I would not allow the 1/2 level bonus other skills get.
#8
therubberduck
Jun 10, 2008 11:09:47
I have a couple of house rules covering skills.

Languages- you get a number of extra languages equal to your Int Bonus. This important for my campaign because there are a lot more languages and no true Common.

Utility Skills- you get a number of Utility Skills equal 1 + Int Bonus. Utility skills include "lost" skills like Appraise, Gambling, Perform, Knowledge (other than the ones in the new PHB), Craft and Professions. Taking one of these makes you trained. You can also use a Utility Skill for an additional language.

I like that. Simple, yet open-ended. And gives the wizard an out, if he doesn't want to possess 3+ utility skills.
#9
natanax
Jun 10, 2008 11:27:20 I really like that Utility Skills idea, I must steal it.
#10
wizardmon
Jun 10, 2008 12:13:24 I feel that Craft, Profession, and Perform can be rolled into one skill: Pastime. When you train in the skill, you select what your pastime is. It might be as a blacksmith, cook, poet, writer, lumberjack, detective, or whatever. You would use this skill whenever you would make a check pertaining to this pastime that another skill could not cover, and use the relavent ability modifier for that situation (as per DM judgement.)

You can probably use this skill to get money as well, possibly based on a reformed version of the old skills.
#11
77im
Jun 20, 2008 9:23:14 I made a system that is similar to what some of the other posters here have suggested. It's specified in a bit more detail and has concrete rules for making money and crafting, but with an open-ended skill list: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=16158307

-- 77IM
#12
GreyMorgan
Jun 20, 2008 9:47:01 I would use character background to give skills. Several good options are listed in this thread for mechanics of it if just that is to open for you. I'm not convinced that having a craft skill you should ever roll to craft an item. After all skill really goes to what you know how to make and how long it takes you to make it. The more skilled you are the broader your knowledge of the craft likely is and the faster you are at doing the craft.

Additionally if I can make a sword then frankly I can always make a sword and there is zero value in having me make a craft roll to make a sword. There is no mechanical benefit in game for a sword made by an apprentice versus a sword made by a grand master. And even in real life the truely well made swords simply last better on the battle field and don't wear down as fast. This extends to any crafted item really. If an apprentice makes a chair it is likely to be a bit rough but you can still sit on it just fine. While a journeyman's or a masters chair will look nice in addition to being functional.

And even that isn't always a good representation of a persons ability. A talented amature could be an expert in a small focused area of a craft skill but not know the broad general lore of the craft. This means given a specific task they could do it as well and as fast as a master, but given some other crafting task it could take them much much longer since they don't have the knowledge.

Anyway I'm not convinced that there is much call for a crafting skill roll to ever be made in game. But if you want to have one most would be Int based, and I would have them improve with level like any other skill. A few might be based off of another stat but in general those would be moderately obvious.
#13
tookyg_dup
Jun 20, 2008 11:40:03
I have a couple of house rules covering skills.

Languages- you get a number of extra languages equal to your Int Bonus. This important for my campaign because there are a lot more languages and no true Common.

Utility Skills- you get a number of Utility Skills equal 1 + Int Bonus. Utility skills include "lost" skills like Appraise, Gambling, Perform, Knowledge (other than the ones in the new PHB), Craft and Professions. Taking one of these makes you trained. You can also use a Utility Skill for an additional language.

As a friend of mine pointed out to me when I mentioned this house rule to him, that means Wizards would know waaay too many of said skills.
#14
fredrik_svanberg
Jun 24, 2008 16:12:11
How do you think this should be handled? I was thinking I could give my player who wants to have blacksmith as his background a trained skill blacksmith and have it int based. However, should he really have +6 to blacksmith and then go up every other level? At what point should the player be able to make really high quality stuff easily? So DC 25, at level 20 he could make this half the time. Does that sound right?

What high quality stuff would there be for him to make? Masterwork armors must be magical, so you have to use the Enchant Item ritual anyway. There are no masterwork weapons. Anything that isn't magical would be a trivial task to craft for anyone who claims to be a craftsman, it could be assumed to be as simple as Taking 10 on whatever roll you decide to use, thus eliminating the need for rules at all.

If you really want to roll for these things, for whatever reason, make it a straight level + Int roll, if the character has the proper background. I don't really see a reason to ever roll for crafting though. What purpose would it serve?
#15
sixteen_sided_die
Jun 24, 2008 16:41:53 I was just going to make them Skill Challenges, and choose arbitrary skills to run them off, but the "Utility Skill" idea seems good too. My gaming group specifically loved doing stuff with Profession, Craft and Perform in 3.x, so I have to bring something over to encourage them to take the dive into 4th.

I think I'll do something a little like this:

Feat: Utility Training- You gain Craft, Profession, or Perform as a Utility power. You can choose this feat more than once, each time choosing a different Craft, Profession, or Perform daily power.

Craft:
Level 1 Utility Power - Personal
You have training in mundane tasks. Choose an area of expertise (i.e. Basketry, Blacksmithing, Bowyer/Fletcher, etc.) approved by your DM.You can craft mundane items (provided you have the proper tools and resources). Note that your DM is the final arbiter of costs and/or time involved. You are considered to be proficient enough to craft items of average quality and recognize items of superior or shoddy quality with a perception check.

Profession:
Level 1 Utility Power - Personal
You have training in a mundane profession. Choose an area of expertise (i.e. Banker, Barrister, Exchequer, Guide, etc.) approved by your DM. You can ply your trade either as a bonus to rolls in appropriate skill challenges or to make a little money doing odd jobs in a pinch. Note that your DM is the final arbiter of the use of this power, both in time and resources.

Perform:
Level 1 Utility Power - Personal
You have training in the performing arts. Chooe and area of expertise (i.e. Poet, Singer, Specific Instrument, Writer, etc.) approved by your DM. You can perform to influence people in Skill Challenges or make a little money performing for the public in a pinch. Note that your DM is the final arbiter of the use of this power, both in time and resources.
#16
GreyMorgan
Jun 25, 2008 0:57:50 I would never ever ever make crafting or profession cost a feat or a regular skill. If you must have a craft/profession skill then it needs to be grafted on. Fortunately there is plenty of room to do just that in 4E you don't break anything adding a mechanism for it.

But crafting/profession should never ever come at a cost of the characters power. And feats are part of that core power that is a character.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gamileo Jun 04, 2008 23:35:43	How do you think this should be handled? I was thinking I could give my player who wants to have blacksmith as his background a trained skill blacksmith and have it int based. However, should he really have +6 to blacksmith and then go up every other level? At what point should the player be able to make really high quality stuff easily? So DC 25, at level 20 he could make this half the time. Does that sound right? I am thinking that if my players want a profession or craft, they get it for free at character generation as per their background. IF they pick it up later they start out as apprentice, so only have their int modifier bonus, then they can work their way to journeyman and get their 1/2 class bonus, and then become master and get trained bonus. So int of 14, level 6 paladin takes up blacksmithing. At first he can only have a +2, so he isn't very good, but he keeps trying, he makes daggers and such. Then after 2 levels, he gets good enough (as long as he is roleplaying it) to become a journey man, so +2 from int, +4 from levels. So he has a +6, he can make ok swords and such, DC 15's and occasional DC 20's, rarely DC 25s. Then at level 10 or so, or more, maybe higher, because it takes longer to become a master, he gets trained bonus. +2 from int, +(1/2)level, +5. So lets say he masters it at level 16, he would then have +13. However, if I do it this way I run into why is the player who started at level 6 just as good as the player who has been doing it his whole life? I think the same can be said for professions too. What are other opinions?
#2 JonOz Jun 07, 2008 18:09:50	I have a couple of house rules covering skills. Languages- you get a number of extra languages equal to your Int Bonus. This important for my campaign because there are a lot more languages and no true Common. Utility Skills- you get a number of Utility Skills equal 1 + Int Bonus. Utility skills include "lost" skills like Appraise, Gambling, Perform, Knowledge (other than the ones in the new PHB), Craft and Professions. Taking one of these makes you trained. You can also use a Utility Skill for an additional language.
#3 thecasualoblivion Jun 07, 2008 23:36:06	Here is what I do: 1. Players are encouraged to put together a background, but within reason. Somebody who lists themselves as an accomplished cook, sailor, blacksmith, dancer, tailor, and gambler is going to get some "Evil Eye" from me. 2. When situations come up in game that aren't covered by PHB skills and I want a roll, its a straight ability check vs. DC. 3. If a non-skill situation comes up that the character's background covers, like doing something on a ship when your character used to be a sailor, you get the +5 trained bonus.
#4 taski Jun 08, 2008 2:34:05	I'm considering doing it like this: 1. Characters get 3 + Int bonus background skills for free at 1st level. You can get more later on at any point, but the process requires time and proper resources (tutors, libraries, bardic colleges, etc.). New background skills can also be given out as rewards. Example: "You've just finished telling the Chief about your adventure when he offers to let the party stay with his clan for a while and learn some traditional skills from his people. They know weaving, leatherworking, cooking, dancing, and drum playing, and the shaman knows a few rituals." 2. Provided you come up with a good RP justification (DM retains veto power), you can use your background skill as part of another skill check, and get a +2 bonus to that check. Example: "I try to impress the Duchess with my beautiful lute-playing." "Okay, that's a Diplomacy check with a +2 for using your lute. You got a total of 8? Sorry, it seems she's not in the mood for music." 3. When not incorporating your background skill into another skill, you count as trained in your background skill, getting the usual 1/2 your level, ability bonus, and +5 to the check. Example (during a wilderness journey skill challenge): "I'll make a stew from the rabbit our ranger caught." "Okay, that's a Cooking check. You got a total of 33? It's the best rabbit stew that's ever existed. You all regain those healing surges you lost when you fell down the rapids."
#5 Mindforge Jun 08, 2008 14:13:15	I tried to create a 'Secondary Skills' house rule that is close to the 'trained' basis that the current system uses. So, I have decided that all characters get 2 secondary skills. When selected the secondary skills counts as trained. Instead of getting a secondary skill a player may instead choose to 'specialize' in a primary skill gaining a +5 trained bonus in a portion of that skill - let's say jumping for athletics or hiding for stealth. Some of my secondary skills include; Craft Profession Specialization I would break it all down right here but I am still working on it and decided I would share this portion. If I remember, I will return and finish it off.
#6 Pangur Jun 10, 2008 3:18:25	I'll be going back to a skill system more akin to that of 3E, with a number of skill points (probably 6+Int regardless of class, 1 point per rank for class skills, 2 points for others, capped at level + 3 (no cap difference between class skills and non class skills)) to be used at every level, ditching the + half level bonus and the training bonus. I'll probably also have to fiddle a bit with DCs and specific mechanics to make it work properly.
#7 Thought Jun 10, 2008 8:53:10	While I haven't had time to test this out thoroughly, I am planning on representing profession and crafting skills as circumstance bonuses (as this helps keep the simplicity of the current skills system, for players at least, but still provides a bit of the depth of the older system and it helps ties in their backgrounds to the game a little bit more). Example; Trogdor the Ranger lived in an outlying village. Coming from a poor family, his family had to hunt and gather most of their food and resources. As such, he learned from an early age how to craft simple arrows and bows. I read that character description and decide that Trogdor should get a +5 circumstance bonus from his past to any "craft" check (which would otherwise be a basic ability check) for simple bows and arrows, but maybe only a +1 or +2 if he was trying to make something fancy (a re-curved or composite bow, a bow made out of horn, etc). On the other hand, if Trogdor had lived in a permanent settlement and was a Fletcher by trade, I'd give him a +10 circumstance bonus to fletching (but nothing, or maybe just a +1, to making a bow). Such circumstance bonuses would increase if the player tried to develop it more in game (every night he'd try crafting more arrows, or the sort) but as crafting or professions aren't really something that an adventurer would be devoting his time to, I would not allow the 1/2 level bonus other skills get.
#8 therubberduck Jun 10, 2008 11:09:47	I have a couple of house rules covering skills. Languages- you get a number of extra languages equal to your Int Bonus. This important for my campaign because there are a lot more languages and no true Common. Utility Skills- you get a number of Utility Skills equal 1 + Int Bonus. Utility skills include "lost" skills like Appraise, Gambling, Perform, Knowledge (other than the ones in the new PHB), Craft and Professions. Taking one of these makes you trained. You can also use a Utility Skill for an additional language. I like that. Simple, yet open-ended. And gives the wizard an out, if he doesn't want to possess 3+ utility skills.
#9 natanax Jun 10, 2008 11:27:20	I really like that Utility Skills idea, I must steal it.
#10 wizardmon Jun 10, 2008 12:13:24	I feel that Craft, Profession, and Perform can be rolled into one skill: Pastime. When you train in the skill, you select what your pastime is. It might be as a blacksmith, cook, poet, writer, lumberjack, detective, or whatever. You would use this skill whenever you would make a check pertaining to this pastime that another skill could not cover, and use the relavent ability modifier for that situation (as per DM judgement.) You can probably use this skill to get money as well, possibly based on a reformed version of the old skills.
#11 77im Jun 20, 2008 9:23:14	I made a system that is similar to what some of the other posters here have suggested. It's specified in a bit more detail and has concrete rules for making money and crafting, but with an open-ended skill list: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=16158307 -- 77IM
#12 GreyMorgan Jun 20, 2008 9:47:01	I would use character background to give skills. Several good options are listed in this thread for mechanics of it if just that is to open for you. I'm not convinced that having a craft skill you should ever roll to craft an item. After all skill really goes to what you know how to make and how long it takes you to make it. The more skilled you are the broader your knowledge of the craft likely is and the faster you are at doing the craft. Additionally if I can make a sword then frankly I can always make a sword and there is zero value in having me make a craft roll to make a sword. There is no mechanical benefit in game for a sword made by an apprentice versus a sword made by a grand master. And even in real life the truely well made swords simply last better on the battle field and don't wear down as fast. This extends to any crafted item really. If an apprentice makes a chair it is likely to be a bit rough but you can still sit on it just fine. While a journeyman's or a masters chair will look nice in addition to being functional. And even that isn't always a good representation of a persons ability. A talented amature could be an expert in a small focused area of a craft skill but not know the broad general lore of the craft. This means given a specific task they could do it as well and as fast as a master, but given some other crafting task it could take them much much longer since they don't have the knowledge. Anyway I'm not convinced that there is much call for a crafting skill roll to ever be made in game. But if you want to have one most would be Int based, and I would have them improve with level like any other skill. A few might be based off of another stat but in general those would be moderately obvious.
#13 tookyg_dup Jun 20, 2008 11:40:03	I have a couple of house rules covering skills. Languages- you get a number of extra languages equal to your Int Bonus. This important for my campaign because there are a lot more languages and no true Common. Utility Skills- you get a number of Utility Skills equal 1 + Int Bonus. Utility skills include "lost" skills like Appraise, Gambling, Perform, Knowledge (other than the ones in the new PHB), Craft and Professions. Taking one of these makes you trained. You can also use a Utility Skill for an additional language. As a friend of mine pointed out to me when I mentioned this house rule to him, that means Wizards would know waaay too many of said skills.
#14 fredrik_svanberg Jun 24, 2008 16:12:11	How do you think this should be handled? I was thinking I could give my player who wants to have blacksmith as his background a trained skill blacksmith and have it int based. However, should he really have +6 to blacksmith and then go up every other level? At what point should the player be able to make really high quality stuff easily? So DC 25, at level 20 he could make this half the time. Does that sound right? What high quality stuff would there be for him to make? Masterwork armors must be magical, so you have to use the Enchant Item ritual anyway. There are no masterwork weapons. Anything that isn't magical would be a trivial task to craft for anyone who claims to be a craftsman, it could be assumed to be as simple as Taking 10 on whatever roll you decide to use, thus eliminating the need for rules at all. If you really want to roll for these things, for whatever reason, make it a straight level + Int roll, if the character has the proper background. I don't really see a reason to ever roll for crafting though. What purpose would it serve?
#15 sixteen_sided_die Jun 24, 2008 16:41:53	I was just going to make them Skill Challenges, and choose arbitrary skills to run them off, but the "Utility Skill" idea seems good too. My gaming group specifically loved doing stuff with Profession, Craft and Perform in 3.x, so I have to bring something over to encourage them to take the dive into 4th. I think I'll do something a little like this: Feat: Utility Training- You gain Craft, Profession, or Perform as a Utility power. You can choose this feat more than once, each time choosing a different Craft, Profession, or Perform daily power. Craft: Level 1 Utility Power - Personal You have training in mundane tasks. Choose an area of expertise (i.e. Basketry, Blacksmithing, Bowyer/Fletcher, etc.) approved by your DM.You can craft mundane items (provided you have the proper tools and resources). Note that your DM is the final arbiter of costs and/or time involved. You are considered to be proficient enough to craft items of average quality and recognize items of superior or shoddy quality with a perception check. Profession: Level 1 Utility Power - Personal You have training in a mundane profession. Choose an area of expertise (i.e. Banker, Barrister, Exchequer, Guide, etc.) approved by your DM. You can ply your trade either as a bonus to rolls in appropriate skill challenges or to make a little money doing odd jobs in a pinch. Note that your DM is the final arbiter of the use of this power, both in time and resources. Perform: Level 1 Utility Power - Personal You have training in the performing arts. Chooe and area of expertise (i.e. Poet, Singer, Specific Instrument, Writer, etc.) approved by your DM. You can perform to influence people in Skill Challenges or make a little money performing for the public in a pinch. Note that your DM is the final arbiter of the use of this power, both in time and resources.
#16 GreyMorgan Jun 25, 2008 0:57:50	I would never ever ever make crafting or profession cost a feat or a regular skill. If you must have a craft/profession skill then it needs to be grafted on. Fortunately there is plenty of room to do just that in 4E you don't break anything adding a mechanism for it. But crafting/profession should never ever come at a cost of the characters power. And feats are part of that core power that is a character.