Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bloddsbane Apr 25, 2009 8:55:52	Does anyone miss the crafting skill? I do.
#2 praion Apr 25, 2009 8:57:05	What rules do you want ? Where would you need more rules ?
#3 bloddsbane Apr 25, 2009 9:00:51	Will I think the skill could be biult off of the str abillity. I just fill if I can make a weapon magical I should be able to make the weapon or armour to.
#4 praion Apr 25, 2009 9:05:13	Will I think the skill could be biult off of the str abillity. I just fill if I can make a weapon magical I should be able to make the weapon or armour to. So why don't you let your players do it ?
#5 drackcove Apr 25, 2009 9:09:59	no need for a skill, if your character is a blacksmith you can make stuff. who needs to waste time making skill checks?
#6 bodyknock Apr 25, 2009 9:14:53	I don't miss the non-magical crafting rules of 3rd edition. Not only were they overly complicated but nobody was interested in using them to make nonmagical items. In all the years we played 3rd edition I can't off-hand think of a single time in our group anybody actually used the 3rd edition crafting skills to make themselves a non-magical item.
#7 Swordsman1612 Apr 25, 2009 9:26:05	Not particularly, no. After all, my characters spent most of their time eliminating threats to the city, unravelling a plot to overthrow the king, hunting down some asassins... that sort of things. We left mundane crafting to the NPCs.
#8 oxybe Apr 25, 2009 9:44:59	the thing with crafting is that it either: A) takes too much time to do in-game that you cannot do it mid-adventure B) if you do it during the off-time when it's not time sensitive and you can take your time to properly do it. skill checks should only be used, IMO, where there is a significant chance of failure or it's time sensitive. if you have to climb the sheer cliff to get to the wizard's tower before dawn breaks and the sunlight powers his latest elemental crystal-powered superweapon, you roll athletics checks as you need to get up there. if you're chilling out with your fighter camp buddies and you decide to go do some mountain climbing during your first downtime together. i don't see why you need to roll athletics as you're all taking your time and just doing it for fun. crafting items, IMO, is in the second scenario far more often then the first. party has downtime, what do they do? rogue does his con artist schtick and is the eyes and ears and contacts them with jobs, mage goes off and studies/gives lectures and tinkers in the lab, the cleric gives sermons to his faithful and researches ancient scriptures, the fighter assists the town guard during the day and at night works on his new armor. now, if the need to reforge an ancient sword you recovered so you can destroy the ancient lich's phylactery then it becomes required checks but i would probably play it out like a skill challenge with +2 bonuses depending if they have a smith background as it's a job they need to finish fast, not one that they are taking their time.
#9 daidojitaidoru Apr 25, 2009 10:07:30	Can't say I miss forcing my players to waste skill points to do something worthless no. DC 15 with take 10 allowed to save 1 gp (and waste days/months) on items that aren't even magic? That's a trap option right there, with petty bookkeeping on top for extra annoyance. The background rules are superior in design and simplicity.
#10 CaptnMorgrim Apr 25, 2009 10:11:30	When I started playing AD&D in the late 1990s, my Gnome Thief took alchemy as one of his non-weapon profiencies. I loved it that I didn't have to roll a single check related to the actual production process for some fireworks. However, this being an old Dragonlance campaign, my DM had me roll whether I had a little accident or not - I ended up with a few singed eyebrows, nothing serious, mind. Now, the main problem with the 3.5 craft skills were the limits of the skill point system, imo. I tried to roll up a gnome alchemist who could produce enough Alchemist's whatever (fire or acid, it was, back then). In 3.5, a Gnome Alchemist of any suitable class at Lvl 2 (Craft Alchemy 5 + Int Bonus 3 + Racial Bonus 2 = 10) taking 10 could produce a single flask of Alchemist's fire in 4 days. 20x20 = 400 CP/day x 5 days = 2000 CC (price of one flask of alchemist's fire). Cost: 6.66 GC in ingredients. In short, you had to sacrifice effectiveness in vital skills for some flavour which could be provided by any half-decent backstory. Selecting a background suitable for whatever you want to craft solves this problem nicely in 4E. In 4e, it took a similar character of lvl 2 (actually a gnome accoutant, aka Warlord/Wizard) a mere 30 minutes to prepare the same flask for the cost of 20 gc. While the "inflated" price and having no actual gain (apart from a.) being able to disregard random markups and b.) create a flask of alchemists wossname anywhere) may be the downside of it, the whole system is far more rewarding in the end. Long story or rant (your choice) short: As long as crafting whatever fits your character's interests, background etc, you should be able to do it. Actually, given that you don't have to pay seperately for a masterwork item and the enhancement you want to bestow upon, you might as well regard the cost of the item receiving the magical properties as being included in the whole 4e magic item package. However you craft is up to you. A Dwarven warsmith (see the Dragon Magazine Characters of War backgrounds, I like the pic) might shape the sword she 'll enchant later with her own hands, working in a forge, whereas an eladrin wizard casting Enchant Magic Item might create the same armor from thin air/discarded dragon scales/interesting bits from various magical creatures and so on... Even shorter: Can't say I miss forcing my players to waste skill points to do something worthless no. DC 15 with take 10 allowed to save 1 gp (and waste days/months) on items that aren't even magic? That's a trap option right there, with petty bookkeeping on top for extra annoyance. The background rules are superior in design and simplicity. QFT!!!
#11 VerysArkon Apr 25, 2009 10:19:38	No, I don't miss the crafting rules. If you need something like crafting, choose the 'Artisan' background (PH2), and make a related ability check using the page 42 DCs (or make it a skill challenge if you want to simulate making something large or complex). Leave it up to the DM to determine how long it takes. Common sense is more powerful than tables in this instance. If you are using 'crafting' as a way of running a business, I would suggest making it more abstract and use the use the rules for running a business from the v3.5 DMGII. If you want crafting for the fluff, just add it to your character sheet, inform your DM, and call it done.
#12 bloddsbane Apr 25, 2009 11:37:15	You all have a point. Thanx for the info.
#13 thax Apr 25, 2009 14:10:16	What I miss is the Magical Item crafting. It seems that the money it costs (full price) is mostly for the item that is ending up being enchanted and some sort of magical siphon that makes a character's wealth disappear. It is a Ritual now, overpriced and assumed that the finished object is already there to enchant.
#14 daidojitaidoru Apr 25, 2009 14:31:59	What I miss is the Magical Item crafting. It seems that the money it costs (full price) is mostly for the item that is ending up being enchanted and some sort of magical siphon that makes a character's wealth disappear. Actually the magic item ritual gives the item at cost. Stores (if any) sell the item at 10% to 40% markup to gain profit. Thus you save a lot of money making the item instead of buying it. It is a Ritual now, overpriced and assumed that the finished object is already there to enchant. Actually that's every other edition of D&D, which assumed that you had an item and made it magic. Barring a few classes you couldn't actually make an item magic just by crafting well. In 4th if you take the Warsmith background you can make magic arms and armor with just crafting.
#15 thax Apr 25, 2009 14:36:14	No, merchants mark up the product from the price point. The ritual costs the full price printed on the page, then if they want to sell it, can only get a fifth of that cost. This is an attempt to make magical items rare. I wonder what changes are in store for the Eberron campaign for the Parcel System, as it won't work as written for the overly magical nature of that setting.
#16 daidojitaidoru Apr 25, 2009 14:48:16	No, merchants mark up the product from the price point. The ritual costs the full price printed on the page, then if they want to sell it, can only get a fifth of that cost. Er, yes. That's what I said. I costs the mage X cash to make an item and then the store the mage runs sells it for X+Y. The only people who can get the item for X are the people who make it themselves. It's the same as in 3rd, where the price of an object was X gold and Y xp and it was sold for 2x gold. The only difference is that 4th ed tells you the crafting price and 3rd ED tells you the buy price. This is an attempt to make magical items rare. Well then it didn't do a good job because my party finds 4 magic items every level. At level 20 you can buy over 15 bags of everlasting rations with your smallest treasure parcel. At 30 you can wallpaper your house with +1 swords for the lulz. Ebberon and other high magic setting will do just fine thank you.
#17 thax Apr 25, 2009 14:55:48	If a wizard would craft items for such a low profit margin. Mostly it is assumed that merchants have either found the items from elsewhere, or has bought them at lowball pricing and trying to sell it high. A wizard or someone that can do the ritual most likely will only make items that they will use for themselves, or for other party members, for a fee if they are an (donkey) about it.
#18 daidojitaidoru Apr 25, 2009 15:02:09	If a wizard would craft items for such a low profit margin. The minimum profit on a level 1 magic item is 36 gold. That's 3.6 cows. Not a bad business deal there. And it only gets better as item levels climb. Mostly it is assumed that merchants have either found the items from elsewhere, or has bought them at lowball pricing and trying to sell it high. Or that they have an actual established storefront which can prove that the item isn't question wasn't stolen from the local assassins guild recently. As opposed to the shady guy in the back alley asking if you can take this sword of his hands.
#19 arderkrag Apr 26, 2009 3:35:55	Does anyone miss the crafting skill? I do. Ummm...nope.