Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 karnek Jul 26, 2009 20:49:15	So in my world that I am creating there was a group of liches who decided to band together and after enslaving several monster races set about destroying the world. They wiped out 98% of the sentient races that are considered good. The heros of the world put up a good fight and when it came time for the last stand they wanted to ensure that the knowledge of the classes lived on in case the rest of them died. A lottery took place and the winners were sent away. The good guys lost. Enter the heros! So here is what will make this world unique. The group will not have access to rituals or spells which raise people from the dead. The liches found it rather inconvenient to have their enemies getting back up and fighting them so they did their best to destroy all rituals/scrolls of raise dead, except the ones they use for their own amusement. The group will all choose their primary class and a secondary class that will belong to them. Should their main character die they will pick up wherever their secondary character is in the world. My players seem to like the idea of me making the race/class random and not giving them the options. So things like an elven fighter or a dwarf wizard would be possible. I thought about making a table and randomly rolling everything. Events will happen in the world which will cause a random class to be lost. Maybe the village the shaman was tending to got razed to the ground and they didn't escape. These events will be pretty spread out though as when the players run out of classes or lives then it is Game Over. The secondary classes the players choose will not be involved in the rolling to see if the class perishes. The reason for doing this is to give them a bigger sense of urgency that their entire culture and future is getting wiped out. The world is going to be very dark. For instance I envisioned a city that was wiped out by one of the low level liches who was told by the town's people he would never amount to anything (when he was secretly a necromancer). So he spends his time recovering their corpses, resurrecting them, flaying their skin from their body and letting them die again. There are still major cities bustling with activity and war. The undead started vying for power with one another and couldn't be bothered to crush every tiny insect they found. There are "undead heros" and there are castle's being rebuilt to their former glory with a much creepier vibe. So the question is, how can I make it better? The players like the fatalistic world and its a big departure from the world they are in right now. With the information I have provided what else would you include?
#2 seyeklopz Jul 27, 2009 13:17:49	I would have no more paladins or priests since nearly all deities' worshippers are gone. Psionics might fill the void. The remaining people would be the most powerful or the most stealthy of their kind, so their stats would be beyond average. Undead which require nourishment would be exceedingly rare, non-existent, enfeebled or inactive. Perhaps the underdark escaped the fate of the surface. The terrors of the deep may be the last hope for the living.
#3 lyonv Jul 27, 2009 15:19:49	I recommend various forms of divine intervention to aid the PCs in their struggle to restore balance. Gifts of magic items or abilities that protect against scrying or give temporary invisibility to undead (as per the spell) for example. Also answer the question (at least for yourself) why the gods and celestial good creatures did not intervene more directly in saving the world from such total domination and near destruction. Perhaps there's a lesson to be learned or something the liches did to hold the powers of Good hostage--something high-level PCs discover and can go about fixing as the first step toward unleashing the forces of Good to restore the balance to the world.
#4 AbdulAlhazred Jul 27, 2009 15:45:18	Yeah, you could devise various "refuges" where the last survivors are holed up. Think about Zion in The Matrix for instance (although that may not be the best example, lol). In any case deep underground, on a mountain top, in a hidden valley, a remote temple, an island in the middle of the ocean, in a magical extraplanar refuge, etc. Naturally there could be spies and traitors, etc.
#5 karnek Jul 27, 2009 18:46:01	Sorry I should have been a bit clearer in my first post. I fully intend to allow there to be some towns that ended up unscathed (sort of). I plan to take a page out of a series of books I enjoy where the people in the town basically work for vampire lords who if you are a really good servant will give you an item declaring that you aren't food, basically. Being a good servant of course meaning turning in traitors. There are many ideas that could work with the enslaved villages idea, or some that just made through 'ok' where the people are trying to rebuild. I didn't really think about the whole good aligned deities when creating this little sandbox. Perhaps nobody knows why they didn't intervene? Or maybe it is a test of faith? It could be a mystery for the heros to solve. It certainly sounds like a quest the cleric would want to follow. I think I will start the heros at level 3 or 4 to bypass some of the mundane stuff and let them fight some bigger undead creatures right away. I told them that the monsters exist in this world and won't always be tailored to them, so they will need to think things through and plan and do the best they can. Also, of the NPCs remaining there are no NPCs that would be considered part of a class. There is one of each of them and then no more. They will be strictly PC only classes should their primary/secondary classes die the heros will take up the mantle of the other classes. This will probably cause some pretty ridiculous class combination to be tried. Sounds like fun to me!
#6 dougirwin13 Jul 27, 2009 19:06:32	You will seriously need to address the issue of the Good and anti-undead Deities. A war amongst them which the evil/undead Deities won would be an obvious solution. That can be a useful hook for a long-term campaign. While some of the Deities were killed a number of others were imprisioned. While a very small number escaped and are in hiding. One of those in hiding perhaps is the God of one of your PC Clerics... So the party can become instrumental in freeing and overthrowing the Evil Deities and helping free the Good ones. There are other less obvious ways of dealing with this, of course. But I like high-fantasy and epic quests :P
#7 karnek Jul 27, 2009 21:08:44	My players aren't likely to question why the good deities didn't come to everyone's rescue. I think a bit of mystery will be good for the campaign anyway. Simple enough to say nobody knows why they didn't help and if it becomes a huge issue I can flesh it out later on. I like the players doing their own dirty work so I don't foresee any divine intervention. Besides, how do I explain the gods helping these adventurers but not in the huge battle that took place with the Liches. For better or worse my players will be on their own. The fun part will be developing monster societies that no longer have to fear pesky adventurers coming and killing them. Gnolls have a bunch of tribal cities with huts and wooden spiked walls. Minotaurs enjoy their freedom in forgotten cities, living the way they always wanted to. I will need to create the undead heros as BBEGs for the party at some point, although in the beginning I think the heros will just roam around spoiling for a fight.
#8 dougirwin13 Jul 27, 2009 21:37:57	Well you neededn't go into great detail. But it could provide for some great hooks and high adventure :P But to address your concerns with the ideas... The "Good Gods" lost. Any that aren't dead have been imprisoned for the pleasure of the "Evil Gods" or been forced underground. Those (1 or 2 or 3) that are underground cannot "show their face" without being crushed by the overwhelming power of the evil ones. They would be stretching the limits by supplying a few prayers to a Cleric, they would never risk direct or divine intervention and risk a lot just supplying one player with some prayers. But you could also decide that was too risky. The PCs don't need to know that any "Good Gods" survived in the start, if at all. If you choose to let them have survived that is. It just gives you options if you want/need them. In the end as long as it works for you & your players and you are ready to deal with it if you ever need to that's all that's important. I'll just continue lurking and enjoying the ideas. :D
#9 eazy_e Jul 27, 2009 21:45:01	Just say your world doesn't allow the direct intervention of gods. The only way they can work through things is via worshippers. I like this world though wish I was a player
#10 karnek Jul 27, 2009 22:31:01	Hmm, the worshiper angle might work. None of the monster races are likely to worship the good aligned deities, or maybe in small groups. This would only allow enough power for the priestly classes that are left. This way I don't have to hand-wave where the powers come from. And of course no outside intervention. For some reason that seems to work for me a bit better than imprisoning them or killing them. I just have them only be as powerful as the number of worshipers they have. Of course Orcus is living it large right about now. I hope my players can cope with the free form nature of this style of play. They usually only go after whatever I toss directly in front of them. I want them to enjoy the setting as much as I am enjoying making it. The whole one life then your class is gone is a fun concept. I am wondering just how far they will make it!
#11 AbdulAlhazred Jul 28, 2009 7:36:21	Hmm, the worshiper angle might work. None of the monster races are likely to worship the good aligned deities, or maybe in small groups. This would only allow enough power for the priestly classes that are left. This way I don't have to hand-wave where the powers come from. And of course no outside intervention. For some reason that seems to work for me a bit better than imprisoning them or killing them. I just have them only be as powerful as the number of worshipers they have. Of course Orcus is living it large right about now. I hope my players can cope with the free form nature of this style of play. They usually only go after whatever I toss directly in front of them. I want them to enjoy the setting as much as I am enjoying making it. The whole one life then your class is gone is a fun concept. I am wondering just how far they will make it! Yeah, I've always liked the "gods get power from the worshippers" thing. It goes well with a lot of tropes in D&D like "dead gods" (they have no more supply of power but still have a bit stored up from long ago). The good gods in this setting may still be able to do stuff, just very sparingly and couldn't afford an outright confrontation with evil. Something like Orcus is getting a lot of power to use now, but he still might not instantly gain a lot from it. Maybe he has to perform certain dark rituals and gain certain things before he can get stronger powers and whatnot to use with his new found "manna". I wonder what Demogorgon thinks of all that? hehe.
#12 koradzi Jul 28, 2009 14:36:18	There's always the Preacher answer to that one. The good Gods have finally had enough of Mortals - the wickedness, the corruption, the faithlessness - so they've cashed in their chips and called it quits. For extra punch... this happened 800-odd years ago, and the Good churches have been trying to keep it hushed up.
#13 karnek Jul 28, 2009 17:47:38	Some of the heros could in fact be evil as well. They might have been secret worshipers or maybe one is a "reformed" Drow that in all actuality was faking it. There are tons of directions you can go with things. It will be exciting to see things as they progress. I would have to make a campaign log of this if we go through with it. Also, I absolutely believe that the evil gods would start destroying one another as soon as "good" was out of the way. They just can't stand being second best!
#14 matthewswift Jul 28, 2009 19:36:02	Can they make attempts at preserving their classes? by taking on squire figures or breeding with NPCs or encapsulating their essence in a crystal (Final Fantasy style)? I really like this world idea, but if they are the last of their kind their isn't much point in saving the world only for them to die of natural causes and lose the class anyways...
#15 doomsought Jul 28, 2009 20:19:32	Perhaps the land is so tainted that clerics cannot function and distance from their temples, these would be the few refuges on the surface, and they are slowly shrinking. Make them have a few skills challenges to hunt/conserve food.
#16 karnek Jul 29, 2009 14:23:01	Can they make attempts at preserving their classes? by taking on squire figures or breeding with NPCs or encapsulating their essence in a crystal (Final Fantasy style)? I really like this world idea, but if they are the last of their kind their isn't much point in saving the world only for them to die of natural causes and lose the class anyways... I spoke to my players about this. The only issue with letting them take on apprentices to their class is that everyone will want to do this immediately and it takes away the threat of "loss of class". I think if they make it to Paragon levels that would be sufficient. Or maybe they can do it at level 5 but it requires them to bring their apprentices along with them so they face the potential of death.
#17 matthewswift Jul 29, 2009 16:56:08	I spoke to my players about this. The only issue with letting them take on apprentices to their class is that everyone will want to do this immediately and it takes away the threat of "loss of class". I think if they make it to Paragon levels that would be sufficient. Or maybe they can do it at level 5 but it requires them to bring their apprentices along with them so they face the potential of death. sounds good to me. Now they have a long term goal other than simply surviving.
#18 zackblack Jul 29, 2009 20:56:53	Creating an extremely dark setting, could use assistance Turn all of the lights out. With the information I have provided what else would you include? Switching from D&D to WoD would be my first step...
#19 argentlupe Aug 02, 2009 13:43:35	Perhaps there is no divine intervention on BOTH sides? The evil gods could be just as impotent in the world as the good ones. Perhaps they removed themselves as part of a celestial wager on the fundamental strengths of good vs evil? Or maybe a 3rd party has entered the fray? Maybe the gods of neutrality have intervened? Or maybe it's really a war of Arcane vs Divine and the powers of magi are winning?
#20 karnek Aug 03, 2009 0:05:40	I was thinking about this the other day, but just because a creature is undead, doesn't mean it has to worship Orcus. So if we go with the whole, 'you need worshipers to fuel you power' it might make sense that these liches all fashion themselves as demigods when in reality they aren't. Followers would be forced to worship the lich they serve and no others. Some creatures would worship whatever they choose of course. But I like the idea of extremely limiting the impact of gods on the campaign world. I want the players to feel like it's do or die and it's their own choices that will save them or ruin them. More power in their hands basically.
#21 argentlupe Aug 03, 2009 4:28:49	... But I like the idea of extremely limiting the impact of gods on the campaign world... This is the theme of my current campaign world. I have a whole mythos created centered around missing gods and how arcane magic and arcane ritual have taken the place of the divine altogether. In 4e it made it very easy to create some world concepts that would have been nigh impossible in 3.5e and before.
#22 darkdiashi Aug 04, 2009 21:01:46	To preserve classes, you could have the player's second character be required to multiclass into the original's (like say they inherited the original's possesions and along with it came instructions for saving the world and a tutorial to the class so all is not lost). this way the class survives and the second chracter has motivation. Example: Joe plays a dragonborn druid named balasar. balasar adventures with a select few others to defeat the liches while still others, among whom is joe's backup character a wilden Invoker named Nementah, stay behind in hiding as backup. At level 7 Balasar sucumbs to a bloodkiss beholder. As the party mourns a message is sent to one of the backup members, namely, Nementah, either by the players or by some auto triggering magic ritual. Among all of the info needed to get Nementah up to speed on the campaign, along with the pcs current location, is a Druid handbook written by Balasar. Now it is Nementah's responisbility to uphold the druidic tradition as best she can by multiclassing into it. In this way it limits the classes to those few special individuals and needs no 'i want an apprentice' argument, while at the same time flavorfully preserving the class. another option is that upon the overthrow of the liches a grand ritual using thier phylacteries (or a certain number of them) resurects the dead adventurers as revanants whom can teach the art of thier class to future generations (that part would be post game of course) Your world sounds awesome. Are you allowing Deva or Dhamphyr Heritage feats? the Dhamphyr ones would make some interesting role play.