Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 viemexis Mar 30, 2012 20:17:33	I'm creating an RPG with a similar spirit to D&D, but a bit simpler in some ways (lower numbers, less modifiers), yet with tactical depth. I've looked at a few core mechanics besides the standard d20 + modifiers, but have yet to choose. It seems d20 is the standard with good reason. At the same time, sometimes I feel the d20 has too much luck, and often results in sessions where a player rolls all 1-5 on their dailies and encounters, and has no fun despite their character supposedly being highly accurate. d100 seems like an overly inflated version of the d20, so that seems like the least likely solution. there's also the FUDGE system, which produces a nice bell curve where the highest and lowest values are extremely unlikely. It appeals to me, because of its minimalism, but I also wonder if it could present issues with a game that has deep mechanics. There's also the similar but slightly more "mathy" 3d6 system, which also forms a bell curve. Basically, I want something simple and elegant, with luck but not TOO much luck, which also allows for thoughtful strategies about synergy between abilities, etc. What do you guys think about the advantages and disadvantages of various systems? Thanks in advance.
#2 terishd Mar 31, 2012 9:57:17	If you or your players cannot laugh at periods of horrid luck, or handle with a smile when everything goes your way, no system will please you.  GDW always uses d6s, and I know many that enjoy their system.  D&D tended to the d20, and may enjoy that.  I have seen many d100 systems, and those can be fun as well.  No system is perfect, and Lady Luck is fickle.  The objective of playing however is to have fun.
#3 dieffenbachj Mar 31, 2012 11:16:45	I've been writing my own RPG, and spent a long time thinking about this sort of thing. I wouldn't use a d20. It just opens a can of worms: players comparing your game to D&D, and trademark issues if you ever release it publicly. And you don't just have to mimic the d20 + modifier vs. static number system of D&D. There are a few categories of dice rolling that exist. Off the top of my head: dice + modifier vs. static number dice vs. modified number dice + modifier vs. modified number  pool of dice dice + modifier vs. dice + modifier static number vs. dice + modifier pool of dice vs. pool of dice  Ironically, D&D has used most of those. Cast a spell? You determine a static number, monster rolls against it. Competing with someone? Both roll dice. Attempting a skill check? Either dice vs. static or dice vs. modified, depending on the exact skill check (with no rhyme or reason sometimes). And there are a few categories of diceless systems, where your character automatically succeeds if they have a certain skill level. These tend to promote roleplaying, but discourage the powergaming aspect, which some people are THERE for. And then the dice used themselves have to be carefully selected. As a general rule, the complexity of the system is proportional to how high the dice rolls can go. The most simple of RPGs would be decided by a coinflip (1d2), while the most detailed of RPGs would be decided by pools of d10s, or d100s, or something. My personal favorite is the 2d6 + modifier vs. static number system. It's such an extremely elegant package to base your RPG around: the 2d6 results are bell curved, which means even a +1 modifier can have an extreme effect (but each +1 bonus has diminishing returns, making people think about when and how to use the tricks up their sleeves). Using a static number and piling ALL modifiers onto the roll ("You're climbing up a steep cliff. The target number is 10, but the cliff is smooth so it's -3 on your check") means the target number is super-easy to calculate (in that it never changes), taking strain off both the GM and the players. Plus, it's really easy to add up 2d6 and a third modifier. Math phobes seem fine with smaller numbers like those, rather than a d20 or a d100. It also makes each +1 or -1 REALLY important, because it's such a small scale. If you used a d100, it wouldn't be elegant: You'd have a +10 here or a -13 there or a +25 here... it'd feel very arbitrary, it'd be hard to add up, and players wouldn't care about a +2 or +3 bonus. On a 2d6 scale, though, a +1 MATTERS, and a player who earns their team a +1 on a check deserves a high five. Those'ms my two cents.
#4 viemexis Apr 01, 2012 1:15:14	Thanks. I'm happy to report I've (tentatively) chosen a system, and then I came back and read the responses -- and independently came to a similar conclusion as you, dieffenbachj. I appreciate your insights, and I think that's a good sign that we agree. Perhaps we should compare more notes at some point. Here's my system: The basics are this: it's d6 - d6, meaning one die is positive and the other is negative, so the result is on a bell curve between -5 and 5. Along with this, your stats are simply 1 (terrible) to 5 (amazing).  I chose this because that's the way D&D characters seem to end up anyway; the player decides which traits will be the highest and whether or not they're min-maxing, and exact gradations 10-20 go largely ignored; all that really matters is if your modifier is +4 or +5. In which case, why not just have the ability score be the modifier and cut out the middle man calculation? Unless your character or situation has special modifiers, most checks are simply take your character's relevant stat and add the result of d6 - d6. This is very intuitive because: It's obvious to the player and GM whether or not a certain DC is hard, because the result of the check will always be weighted toward the same number as the character's stat. So, say your Strength is 3 and you roll for a strength-related ability, the outcome will always fall between -2 and 8, with it being likely you will get a 2, 3 or 4. It also makes setting the DC fairly intuitive, as it just means deciding how hard something is on a scale of 1 to 10 (a 1 is what a character with average luck and the lowest possible stat will roll, a 10 is what a character with the highest possible stat and and amazing luck will roll). That makes the math of the core mechanic really simple. In regards to overall game complexity or simplicity, I think it's still possible to make a very complex game with small numbers (even with coin flips!), but the complexity would have to come in different ways. More interesting ways, ideally. Not that I want this game to be like Magic: The Gathering, but I've always appreciated how MtG has very low numbers and pre-school math, and the depth comes through tactics, strategic combinations and predicting your opponent. Those seem more interesting to me than the sometimes cluttered "features" of D&D, like having large numbers and innumerable damage types/elements.
#5 DeathByDonut Apr 03, 2012 0:44:38	I built a Space Opera RPG very similar to that very concept. Many of the game's variables including stats were generated randomly with a d6. The system is a d20 based game with modifier enhancements. As for combat/skill checks I made roll + modifier vs. roll + modifier. I feel the randomness of life has a strong influence on playing RPGs and why we enjoy them in the first place. Consciously we know that life isn't set. If I am a sharpshooter. 9 out of 10 shots I shoot will pip an ace, but sometimes something random happens. The wind blows, I slip, the card moves whatever. A random element is involved. A solid percentile roll with modifier support can add tension and excitement. If you know you can do something 10 out of 10 times I feel I would get bored. Gambling, risk, and luck are all very potent excitement draws. Just my 2 cp. Good luck and happy gaming.
#6 dieffenbachj Apr 03, 2012 22:41:24	The basics are this: it's d6 - d6, meaning one die is positive and the other is negative, so the result is on a bell curve between -5 and 5. I'd probably shy away from that for two big reasons. First, a lot of people struggle with subtracting larger positives from smaller ones. I know I do. I don't know why, but I can tell you off-hand all the rules for simplifying logarithms in Calculus or how to create an equation that approximates pi, but 3 - 6 takes me a second to figure out. It helps if I say "What if it was 6 - 3, and then I reverse the sign? Okay, -3" but that's still far longer than, say, "What's 6 + 3?" I've had a few math phobes in my groups, too, who will count numbers even that small up on their fingers. Asking to subtract two positives so that you get a negative is beyond them. Second reason, and probably this is far more important since it effects ALL groups, rather than just any groups of people bad at arithmetic: How do you split those two dice apart? I guess you roll them one at a time, making sure to declare to the table that you're rolling positive first then negative or vice versa--otherwise, cheaters will try to switch their dice to the most advantageous order--and then you subtract one from the other. Isn't that so much more needlessly complicated than just adding a d6 and another d6? I think to all my D&D sessions where some party members (especially the rogue or assassin) has to carefully arrange all his dice before each attack. First he rolls the d4 for the basic attack. Then the sneak attack. He has to roll them seperately because he gets to reroll on 1s for them. Then the fire damage. Gotta make sure that's rolled seperately, because his sword deals more damage on a maximum die roll. Then the d10s for some bonus effect. Don't forget he might crit--does anyone have a d8 handy? IT TAKES SO LONG TO DO FINISH YOUR TURN ALREADY. I'd say add the two dice together. A range of -5 to 5 is the exact same thing as 2-12 of just 2d6, except it's so much faster to roll. If you have to adjust your ability score ranges to match this new system... well, I'd rather you have a complicated ability score system that is done ONCE, rather than a complicated skill check system that's done EVERY FEW SECONDS. If you're worried about not being unique enough with your RPG... well, the other thing I've learned in my own RPG writing is that sometimes you have to swallow your pride and admit that sometimes the best solutions are the ones that have already been done. Your uniqueness must come from how you spin those generic systems together, not from the system itself.
#7 viemexis Apr 07, 2012 10:51:54	I've been thinking about what you said, but haven't decided.  d6 - d6 makes the system as a whole more elegant, as my system is based on fives much like D&D is based on 20. I also like the idea of a roll could be inherently good (adding a value) or inherently bad (subtracting a value) rather than the somewhat less intuitive "below 6 is unlucky". There are other games with d6 - d6, or FUDGE (which similarly subtracts dice) and fans of those games don't seem to have a problem with it. I tried it on myself and it was simple to calculate, and I'm not really a math person. But everyone's different, perhaps I will just have to playtest it with some friends. As for differentiating the two dice, it's just a matter of having two different colored dice, say white for positive and black for negative. Black and white or red and green dice are easy to come by without even going to a hobby shop. I'm not really worried about the uniqueness too much, and I'm more concerned with the best system than an original system. The desire to do this simply came out of playing 4e and being unsatisfied with aspects of its ruleset, and house rules aren't enough to fix those problems without rewriting the game. I thought about using d20 or Microlite d20 as a starting ruleset, but even those systems seemed inelegant to me in some ways. I resonate with what you're saying about long turns, and I want to make turns in this game significantly shorter than D&D. I want it to be so that during your allies' turns you think about what you're going to do, but when you actually do it, it's just a matter of rolling the two d6 dice together and their outcome resolves the action. Thanks for the input.
#8 DeathByDonut Apr 07, 2012 14:51:37	A good resource to look into when building an rpg is over at www.rpg.net/ they have specific forums to talk about new RPG design and development. Tons of people are building their of RPGs from the ground up.
#9 spikeyboots Apr 13, 2012 11:14:06	I am currently working on a DnD 4e using percentile dice.  Also adding in a lot more skill areas, and dodge/parry.  This does come from the fact that myself and a player in my group also play in a Dark Heresy group which we really enjoy.  I am also not a fan of the 4e d20 system. This may sound like Warhammer Fantasy 3rd edition but I have played that and am not so keen on it. There will also be a few other fundamental changes, for example:  - You spend experience points at your level in order to progress (DH style).  - You can spend your experience points on abilities from other classes as long as they are within your 'group' (e.g a rogue could use other 'striker' powers such as an assassin's) but these are bought at a premium. A +2 sword would add 10% to an attack roll but as HP would be reduced to between 10 (level 1) and 25/30 (at high level) the damage of +2 stays as +2.  I feel that in ADnD 2 a weapon with +2 was amazing to have and I want the +2 dam to really mean somthing again. Once I have finished developing the system we are going to playtest what I have come up with.  I LOVE Excel so everything would be prepared for them on that, meaning there is no complicated maths for people to work out. This won't be easy but at the end of the day if it doesn't work then it doesn't work, I just want to have a go at doing it.
#10 WhisperMagellan Apr 13, 2012 16:45:57	I like West End Games (WEG) d6 system. six attributes. All skills fall under one of those attributes. If the character has no training in a skill, it is based on the attribute. 18 dice to divide among the attributes. average would be 3d for everything, but obviously you can play with higher for some and lower for others. Humans have a minimum of 2D per attribute and a max of 4D. 7 dice to add to individual skills. Every time you do something, you roll that many dice, add them up, and determine success/failure. If you are doing more than one thing at the same time, you take one die away from each action. 1 action: full dice. 2 actions: -1d to both. 3 action: -2d both. 4 actions: -3d all. One die is always a different size/color. If it rolls a 1, you take that die and the highest other die away from your total. Han Solo can step on the only dry twig in the entire endor rain forest. If the die is a 6, you roll another die. If it is also a 6, you roll another, and another, until you don't roll a 6. Anyone can get lucky and have a good day. Quick & easy. wide variety of results.
#11 Rhenny Apr 21, 2012 10:05:39	WhisperMagellan - I also had lots of fun playing the WEG d6 system.  I like it mostly because it is so different than D&D.  I also like how the combat in that game is basically, you get hit and it hurts!  That makes the game feel very different from D&D.    From memory, which I admit is a little cloudy, in WEG d6.each attack is an attack roll (based on skill) vs. any defense roll that the defending creature wants to attempt (parry vs. melee or dodge vs. ranged).   If the attack beats the defense the defender takes a wound.   (I think if it beats by a higher number the defender takes 2 wounds, and even higher score can incapacitate).     There are some creatures or ways for PCs to mitigate some of the damage, but I don't remember it all. Basically the creatures/PCs have a very quick death spiral --- wound1, wound2, Serious wound, incpacitated, dead.  (may not be exact...just an approximation) This type of game moves fast and forces PCs to avoid combat as much as possible (unless they can surprise the foes and take them down quickly). I also like the use of Fate points to add extra die to your action, or to reduce the wound you receive, etc.
#12 WhisperMagellan Apr 22, 2012 23:04:35	Well, first you have to hit. Then there's damage dice vs Strength dice. (armor to boost STR). 1st ed d6 was wound, incapacitate, mortal, dead. 2nd ed had wound 1, wound 2, inc, mortal, dead. 1st ed was based on how many times the damage was vs the str. So, if the resist roll was a 12, the damage was 25, that was 2x the resist, so 2 steps up the ladder. 2nd ed was +5 per step, so 27 damage vs 12 resist was 3 steps! And each wound level was a 1d penalty to all rolls (another way to really make a mess). Was great when a big hulking defel threw a grenade down a  hole, D'oh'ed his Grenade skill and dropped it below his crotch. Then he wiffed on his STR to resist his own grenade and obliterated himself. Also fun when the super boss would blow his STR roll, 3d6+2. Total: 8. Damage roll, 47. Best of all, a little girl running away from a wookie brawler. Wookie had 7D brawling. Girl had 2D brawling parry. D'Oh die kept rolling 6s. Her total was more than the wookie's.  Much laughter was had at the wookie's expense.