Creating the Bard for 4e

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

AH_unc_samurai

Jun 02, 2008 16:43:03
I don't know when they're going to get around to putting Bards in 4th, and given the Wild Magic hints I'm not sure I like the direction they're taking the class. I've therefore decided to craft a new class. The initial concepts borrow heavily from Warlord, Wizard, and Rogue. I would appreciate input if you have ideas or if you think something needs balancing.

At the moment, I've barely started on powers, so there's only a couple. If there's a more standard format for arranging powers on the board, please let me know.




BARD

CLASS TRAITS
Power Source: Arcane
Key Abilities: Intelligence, Charisma

Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Dagger, Hand Crossbow, Quarterstaff, Sling, Short Sword
Implements: Instrument
Bonus to Defense: +2 Will

Hit points at 1st Level: 10 + CON score
Hit points per level gained: 5
Healing Surges per Day: 6 + CON modifier

Trained Skills: Insight, Streetwise
Choose four more trained skills at 1st level:
Class Skills: Arcana (INT), Bluff (CHA), Diplomacy (CHA),
Dungeoneering (WIS), Heal (WIS), History (INT),
Intimidate (CHA), Nature (WIS), Religion (INT)

Build Options: Spoony Bard, Cheeky Bard

CLASS FEATURES
Extended Skill Options:
Bards are known for their silver tongues and keen intellect. They can be repositories of knowledge and masters of the spoken word. Their expertise in lore and speech is unsurpassed.
At 4th, 8th, 14th, 18th, 24th, and 28th Level, when you select the abilities which will receive bonuses, you may select a class skill in which you have received training and is tied to either ability receiving a bonus. That skill's training bonus is increased by +2.
At 11th and 21st level, you may select an additional class skill which you have not previously selected for training. You receive the +5 training modifier as if you had selected the skill at first level.

Implement:
Bards channel and direct their arcane powers through the use of a musical instrument. A bard holding his instrument can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of bardic powers (as well as bardic paragon path powers) that have the “implement” keyword. Bardic powers do not require an instrument, but the powers receive no bonus without it.

A bard is free to choose his instrument. For game purposes, all instruments are two-handed, and utilizing an instrument functions in a similar manner to a fighter’s weapon or a wizard’s staff or wand.

Sample Powers:
(Haven't assigned levels yet)
"Thunderstruck"
At-Will
Arcane, Implement, Thunder
Standard Action
Close Blast 3
Targets each creature in Blast
Attack: INT vs FORT
Effect: 1d6 + INTmod Thunder Damage, subject is Deafened

"Cumbersome"
Daily
Arcane, Implement
Standard Action
Range 10
Targets one creature
Attack: INT vs FORT
Effect: Subject is considered encumbered unless wearing no armor or carrying equipment

"I Wanna Be Sedated"
Daily (Special: You cannot cast this spell if you have cast this spell within the previous 24 hours.)
Arcane, Implement, Sleep
Standard Action
Area Burst 2, within 20 squares
Attack: INT vs WILL
Hit: The target is slowed (save ends). If the target fails the first saving throw, the target becomes unconcious.

"The Sound of Silence"
Daily
Arcane, Implement
Standard Action
Target: One creature
Attack: INT vs WILL
Hit: The target is deafened for 1d6+INTmod rounds (save ends).
If the target fails the first saving throw, the target cannot use arcane or divine powers for 1d6+INTmod rounds.
#2

The_Jester

Jun 02, 2008 20:49:17
The problem right away is this:
A bard is free to choose his instrument. For game purposes, all instruments are two-handed, and utilizing an instrument functions in a similar manner to a fighter’s weapon or a wizard’s staff or wand.

Paladins and clerics can always hold their implement in their off hand, or even keep it around their neck.
Wizards and fighters use their implement in combat to attack.

Making a bard have to choose between weapon and instrument was why 99% of 3e bards went for "singing" as their perform skill and why masterwork instruments were added in Complete Adventurer (to give them a reason to use them).

Bard instruments have to be one-handed so they can use a sword or dagger in their other hand and attack.
#3

gosjims

Jun 02, 2008 21:02:31
The instrument problem is exactly why I took a different approach to the bard. I can post my beginnings if there is interest. Basically I made them more like a Wizard, where a Bard should be playing his instrument most every round, rather than attacking with a weapon. So all of his powers would be spells/songs. I'm not sure if I like it, as I tried to also emulate some of the Warlord/Cleric abilities for buffing allies, as that's what I imagine a bard doing. Buffing allies, hindering enemies, using their music to help out in the battle. I removed almost all rogue-like tendencies. If you want rogue-like abilities in a bard, you can multi-class (which I have also revamped). If AH_unc_samurai doesn't mind, I will post my build so far and maybe people can come up with something interesting and balanced.

I have class features and level 1 at-will powers designed so far.
#4

urmar

Jun 02, 2008 22:41:06
Your class needs to be flexible enough to cover the fighting bard (skald?) and the traditional D&D bard. I agree with the one-handed instrument comment, and think that the powers should be like fighter weapons -- certain powers are better with certain kinds of instruments. Perhaps singing is an option, but the cost is that there are no powers for which singing grants a bonus, which offsets the singing bard's ability to not have to tote around an instrument.
#5

Nathreet

Jun 02, 2008 22:51:32
Making a bard have to choose between weapon and instrument was why 99% of 3e bards went for "singing" as their perform skill and why masterwork instruments were added in Complete Adventurer (to give them a reason to use them).

Bard instruments have to be one-handed so they can use a sword or dagger in their other hand and attack.

Musical Instrument, Common or Masterwork

A masterwork instrument grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Perform checks involving its use.

Masterwork instruments are already in 3.5 core rules. As in PHB.

Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word. Just as for casting a spell with a verbal component, a deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use bardic music. If he fails, the attempt still counts against his daily limit.

You can't really do much besides play the song anyway. Plus many songs last for a little while after you stop singing, so you can just put the lute away and do whatever you want.

And are there really people foolish enough to fight with a bard?? Rogue's already get hammered enough even with sneak attack. Why would someone fight without it? I'd spend 1 action singing a song, and only if there was a buffing round before combat. Then I'd switch to all the useful low level spells, maybe bring in some whip-tripping/disarming action, etc. Or just chill and wait for a chance to skillmonkey later, like rogues are sometimes forced to do. Or go tumble and become the rogue's flanking buddy. Or pop off a bunch of heroisms in the morning, and don't worry when you have less to do during actual combat. Etc.
#6

AH_unc_samurai

Jun 02, 2008 23:10:36
Bard instruments have to be one-handed so they can use a sword or dagger in their other hand and attack.

I know a player would like to be able to dual wield sword-and-lute, but most medieval instruments (and most modern instruments) are two handed, and I wrote that principally as basic realism.

I am going to rewrite the bard over the next day or so to add fighting options; I need to unearth the book with the Skald information in it.
#7

gosjims

Jun 02, 2008 23:21:10
I was thinking about the way in 3.x that a bard's song lasted a while after it had stopped, but 4 doesn't seem to have that same kind of mechanic anymore. Everything lasts either one round, or until a save ends it. So I think any bardic music powers should be modeled the same way, ending at the end of their next turn. This means they aren't going to want to be switching back and forth between instrument and weapon, which is why I made it focus on instruments. A fighting bard would end up being a different class, in my opinion. At least, the way I have it written up now. I am going to go ahead and post what I've written so far:


Bard

CLASS TRAITS
Role:
Leader. You inspire and rally your allies, and demoralize and disable your foes through musical effects.
Power Source: Arcane. Your musical inspiration bursts forth from you so powerfully that you are able to shape it into a special kind of magic.
Key Abilities: Charisma, Dexterity, Wisdom

Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, Simple ranged
Implements: Musical Instrument
Bonus to Defense: +2 Will

Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges per Day: 6 + Constitution modifier

Trained Skills: Arcana, History. From the class skills list below, choose three more trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Streetwise (Cha)

Build Options: Rallying bard, dissonant bard

Class Features:

Implements
Bards make use of musical instruments to help channel and direct their arcane powers. Without an implement, a bard can still use his or her powers. A bard wielding a musical instrument can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of bard powers, as well as bard paragon path powers, that have the implement keyword. Note from Jim: Have to decide on balanced mechanics for musical instrument implements. I always hated how it was never really laid out in previous editions how many hands required for bardic music, or if you could hold something else while doing it, etc. Need to have this information set in stone.

Bardic Music
Whenever you use a Bard Song, you may choose one of the below effects to begin from the moment you use the song until the start of your next turn.

Rallying Music: You and allies within 10 squares who can hear you gain a +1 bonus to all saving throws or a +1 bonus to all attack rolls. This range increases to 15 squares when you reach 11th level, and 20 squares when you reach 21st level. The bonus to saving throws or attack rolls increases to +2 when you reach 21st level.

Demoralizing Music: Enemies within 10 squares who can hear you gain a -1 penalty to all saving throws or a -1 penalty to all attack rolls. This range increases to 15 squares when you reach 11th level, and 20 squares when you reach 21st level. The penalty to saving throws or attack rolls increases to -2 when you reach 21st level.

Refreshing Song
You can use the Refreshing Song power to assist your allies in healing. Refreshing Song is considered a Bard Song for purposes of Bardic Music.

Refreshing Song Bard Feature<br /> You refresh an ally with your melody, invigorating them to continue the fight.<br /> Encounter (Special) Arcane, Healing<br /> Special: You can use this power twice per encounter, but only once per round.<br /> At 16th level, you can use Refreshing Song three times per encounter.<br /> Minor Action Close burst 5<br /> (10 at 11th level, 15 at 21st level)<br /> Target: You or one ally in burst<br /> Effect: The target can spend a healing surge and regain an additional 1d6 hit points.<br /> Increase the amount of additional hit points regained to 2d6 at 6th level,<br /> 3d6 at 11th level, 4d6 at 16th level, 5d6 at 21st level, and 6d6 at 26th level.
#8

Nathreet

Jun 02, 2008 23:50:53
Seems like an option. You'd need to check the warlord preview to make sure you're not being redundant, and you'd have to balance it out, but seems like it works.

My last post was a bit of a tangent, btw. 4e is another animal.
#9

gosjims

Jun 02, 2008 23:56:08
Yeah the Warlord's abilities are a LITTLE similar, but I scaled back the bard because of the range he's able to do it at. Obviously won't know if it's REALLY balanced until testing it in game, but I think it's a start at least.

You know, for a non fighting bard.

The only problem is coming up with other powers. What I would really like are some group debuffs for the enemy and group buffs for the party, but it's hard to come up with something that is balanced with the already decently powerful Bardic Music ability I created. If it's hard to understand, it basically allows any allies OR any enemies (your choice) to be buffed/debuffed in a minor way for a whole turn every time you use a bardic ability.

I wanted there to be something that was constant while the bard was playing, so if you are playing multiple turns in a row you will always have that "+1 to attack" or whatever, then he can modify it to get additional effects. I'm just not sure how it will work in actual play.

Edit: And of course, once I get it fully balanced and working, the official Bard will be released and everything I did will get scrapped

As an added note: I am going to look into the ability to "sustain" a power effect. Perhaps the bard needs to initiate his Bardic Music with an implement(instrument), but then can "carry the tune" with just his voice while he switches weapons or something. Then he would have certain powers only usable "while sustaining Bardic Music". You could still get the music effect, the instrument is taken out of the situation so he can fight, and he's also able to shape the current "song" in a different direction.
#10

AH_unc_samurai

Jun 03, 2008 8:49:20
Would it be entirely unrealistic to allow power effects to last for more than one round? I'd like to add the Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace/Eagle's Splendor to the Bard's repertoire.
#11

gosjims

Jun 03, 2008 9:14:03
I think if it's just "lasts for x amount of rounds", then yes, it's overpowered unless it's pretty high level. But if you make it sustained so they can use an action each round to sustain the effect then it could probably be balanced.

Also, the "lasts for x amount of rounds" doesn't even really seem to be a duration that exists any longer. Everything's either sustained or lasts until start or end of your next turn, or requires a save to end it.
#12

milo_hobo

Jun 03, 2008 12:35:09
What about giving the bard an instrument that is reinforced so that it can be used as a weapon? Like a lute that doubles as a mace or a bodhran that can double as both a small club and a shield. I think that if a didgeridoo is reinfored correctly it could be quite devistating as a weapon.
#13

altriak

Jun 03, 2008 13:02:30
Funny. I was JUST thinking about how a bard class would fit into the game.

Would it be entirely unrealistic to allow power effects to last for more than one round? I'd like to add the Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace/Eagle's Splendor to the Bard's repertoire.

Maybe it would go along these lines:


Bull's Strength Bard Utility 6
You invoke a song of inspiration that instantly strengthens your ally
Encounter|Arcane
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One Creatue
Effect: Target ally gain +4 to strength until the end of your next turn.
Sustain Minor: If the target is within range, you can sustain the effect.


Some other spells I thought up

Charm Bard Utility 2
Your voice becomes hypnotizing, allowing you to gain a brief ally
Encounter|Arcane, Charm
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One Creatue
Effect: Target humanoid's general attitude toward the bard and his allies instantly becomes friendly. This effect does not change the target's attitude toward anyone outside the bard's party. (Save Ends)

Jest
Bard Attack 23
You toy and humiliate the enemies, causing them to anger.
Encounter|Arcane, Charm
Standard Action Burst 9
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Effect: All enemies within the burst are marked. (Save ends)
#14

AH_unc_samurai

Jun 03, 2008 18:21:46
Funny. I was JUST thinking about how a bard class would fit into the game.



Maybe it would go along these lines:


Bull's Strength Bard Utility 6
You invoke a song of inspiration that instantly strengthens your ally
Encounter|Arcane
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One Creatue
Effect: Target ally gain +4 to strength until the end of your next turn.
Sustain Minor: If the target is within range, you can sustain the effect.


I think that's a great template for the ability buff spells. If you don't mind I want to steal that.
#15

urmar

Jun 03, 2008 22:19:00
Funny. I was JUST thinking about how a bard class would fit into the game.



Maybe it would go along these lines:


Bull's Strength Bard Utility 6
You invoke a song of inspiration that instantly strengthens your ally
Encounter|Arcane
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One Creatue
Effect: Target ally gain +4 to strength until the end of your next turn.
Sustain Minor: If the target is within range, you can sustain the effect.


I think that's a great template for the ability buff spells. If you don't mind I want to steal that.

I think the designers were trying to get away from 3.x-style stat buffs, IIRC.

I would go with a +1 to hit and damage effect instead, that scaled up at later levels.
#16

AH_unc_samurai

Jun 04, 2008 8:49:21
I think the designers were trying to get away from 3.x-style stat buffs, IIRC.

I would go with a +1 to hit and damage effect instead, that scaled up at later levels.

I think that would make an excellent staple At-will power for the musical bard - it closely resembles inspired courage.
#17

Nemo_the_Lost

Jun 04, 2008 10:42:25
Looks like you have a good start -- now just write up 30 or 40 more powers and you should be set. That's about right, isn't it? Figuring 15 or so individual levels out of 30 at which you get a new power, and 3 to 5 options per level? ...Make that 45 to 75 more powers.

Sigh.

Seriously, one of my gripes with D&D4 is that creating new classes is going to be a heck of a lot of work for anyone who doesn't get paid to do it.
#18

urmar

Jun 04, 2008 11:35:58
I think that would make an excellent staple At-will power for the musical bard - it closely resembles inspired courage.

I would probably make that an encounter power if it affects the entire party -- it's too powerful as a group at-will buff. I can see it being at-will as a single-target buff.
#19

Dark_Stryke

Jun 04, 2008 22:42:44
Seriously, one of my gripes with D&D4 is that creating new classes is going to be a heck of a lot of work for anyone who doesn't get paid to do it.

Yeah, I feel you there.

If you were just making the class for your own personal use, you wouldn't need any additional options beyond what you knew you were going to take... But that's like preparing nothing but stuffing and carrots for thanksgiving dinner because it's the only thing you like.
#20

rainbowcannon

Jun 04, 2008 23:50:02
I like a lot of the abilities you guys are coming up with, but shouldn't you keep to some of the design goals 4E was going for? Like for example, instead of granting a +4 Str, have it grant a +2 to attack and damage rolls?
#21

AH_unc_samurai

Jun 06, 2008 9:33:17
I like a lot of the abilities you guys are coming up with, but shouldn't you keep to some of the design goals 4E was going for? Like for example, instead of granting a +4 Str, have it grant a +2 to attack and damage rolls?

That works for Strength, and you can do the same for DEX (+2 to AC), but how do you simplify mental stat bonuses?
#22

danmarlok

Jun 12, 2008 16:27:49
Just a random thought but making the bard powers require a two handed instrument to 'start them off' but then he can simply sing acapella to sustain them. Make the sustain require a minor or even a move action in order to balance the more powerful with the less powerful. That would allow him to buff/debuff as the need arises and still be able to move or attack by using his standard action in a round appropriately enough.

As the bard levels up allow him to have more than one song running at a time? Or perhaps make additional song abilities feat or power choices that he has to 'purchase' as he levels so he has to make the choice between having a broader array of songs or being able to sing more songs at a time. Kinda like wizard versus sorceror.