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Creation of Classes?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Gheshet
Jan 24, 2012 21:12:12 So some of the players in my group have recently been discussing the possibility of creating their own classes, making their own powers and all that stuff. A suggestion from another player in my group was creating a new build for a class instead just to add more balance. So do you guys think they should be able to make their own classes, be limited to making a build, or be able to do nothing at all?
#2
enak101
Jan 24, 2012 21:15:34
So some of the players in my group have recently been discussing the possibility of creating their own classes, making their own powers and all that stuff. A suggestion from another player in my group was creating a new build for a class instead just to add more balance. So do you guys think they should be able to make their own classes, be limited to making a build, or be able to do nothing at all?

It sounds fun... if people don't make grossly overpowered powers etc. You would have to oversee and review them all but it could be done. Probably better ramping up difficulty once they do it anyway :P
#3
Janx_14
Jan 24, 2012 23:14:43 Have them make it "e-style" in that its restricted choices, thus you can easily overview their powers, and compare to a class of a similar role.
#4
TheBozz
Jan 25, 2012 2:51:14 I'm a big fan of making new classes. I am just not sure players should be doing it on their own. As has been said you should be able to review anything presented to you and approve/reject as you want. I would also say you should make it clear that you have the power to alter powers as you see fit after play starts. Sometimes a power doesn't appear grossly overpowered on paper, but once you start playing you realise it is.

I created classes for a campaign I am currently running. Well, they are actually professions. The players choose fighter, cleric, rogue, or wizard. The professions then open up based on race and class. I thought the professions I made were pretty balanced. They did include some sizable powercreep, but that can always be accounted for with encounter difficulty as long as the characters themselves maintain balanced. One power I created as an at-will included a stun until the end of the characters next turn. It was single target, but with stun until end of next turn the character could keep a single creature completely out of combat while dealing damage(it had a damage line) for the entire encounter. Once the character hit she could keep the creature stunned as combat advantage from the stun just made it easier to hit. I had to change the power to stunned until end of the targets next turn. This still allowed the player to keep the target (unless a solo or a creature with 2 turns/round) from taking an action, but the creature did not grant perma combat advantage anymore. This allowed more frequent misses by said character (and the restof the party) and less of a dependence on this one power. All and all it made the game fun again for me as DM because I didn't have a single character trivializing every BBEG encounter I threw at them anymore.

So as long as those rules are agreed upon I would say no. If they can agree that you can veto or alter any and every suggestion for a new class ability/power/whatever, then sure go for it.

I would really want to allow the creative input from the players. It sounds like something they would find very fun. I would really suggest getting them to agree to the above. It is fun having classes you made, as well as making the classes in the first place.
#5
Newanda
Jan 25, 2012 7:04:16 Not saying they shouldn't, or couldn't, but why exactly do they want to create whole new classes? What roles and iconic styles of play are they not seeing represented? There are very few things not already in the system, and most of those don't work well in the 4th edition framework. That said, to create a class, they need to choose a (or, I guess, now technically can choose more than one) role, a power source or two, mechanics that are equivilant to, but not the same as other similar classes, a wide variety of powers, feat support, item support, and still have it not more or less powerful than other options.

That's a lot of work, when most of the time, reflavoring what already exists works almost as well to cover whatever thay are imagining. If they can pull it off, more power to them, but mostly I see this as an exercise in frustration for everyone.
#6
enak101
Jan 25, 2012 17:20:30 You make some good points Newanda.

It is an incredible amount of work and you probably could just play a different class refluffed. Go for it if you really need to though.
#7
incenjucar
Jan 26, 2012 1:21:51 Building a new class can be rather difficult. Your best bet is to find a few classes of the same role and tweak powers to better suit your needs. I also suggest you make scaling Encounter and Daily powers to cut down on the number of powers you need to write. If you grab a class-neutral Paragon Path (or multi-class into one) you can get away with writing as few as 13 powers all the way to level 30 while using standard AEDU. This works for a build, too, which eliminates the need to build a class to attach the powers to.

At-Will Powers
1
1

Encounter Powers
27>13>1
23>7
17>3

Daily Powers
29>15>1
25>9
19>5

Utilities
2
6
10
16
22

#8
mhbjarkistef
Feb 07, 2012 0:47:44 Give them a link to the forums and send them to us! :D
We love homebrewing, they just might too ^^

Creating an E-class is probably the easiest:

You use basic attacks for almost everything.
You have 2 minor action at-wills that modify your basic attack.
You have an encounter power that triggers on a hit. You gain one use of it at level 1 and another at level 3 etc.
You gain a couple of class-specific utility powers, as well as the usual utility powers.
Fill'er up with fluff and you're good to go.

Also, you might want them to take a look at this, the Classless DnD in my signature, and its updated thread here

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Gheshet Jan 24, 2012 21:12:12	So some of the players in my group have recently been discussing the possibility of creating their own classes, making their own powers and all that stuff. A suggestion from another player in my group was creating a new build for a class instead just to add more balance. So do you guys think they should be able to make their own classes, be limited to making a build, or be able to do nothing at all?
#2 enak101 Jan 24, 2012 21:15:34	So some of the players in my group have recently been discussing the possibility of creating their own classes, making their own powers and all that stuff. A suggestion from another player in my group was creating a new build for a class instead just to add more balance. So do you guys think they should be able to make their own classes, be limited to making a build, or be able to do nothing at all? It sounds fun... if people don't make grossly overpowered powers etc. You would have to oversee and review them all but it could be done. Probably better ramping up difficulty once they do it anyway :P
#3 Janx_14 Jan 24, 2012 23:14:43	Have them make it "e-style" in that its restricted choices, thus you can easily overview their powers, and compare to a class of a similar role.
#4 TheBozz Jan 25, 2012 2:51:14	I'm a big fan of making new classes. I am just not sure players should be doing it on their own. As has been said you should be able to review anything presented to you and approve/reject as you want. I would also say you should make it clear that you have the power to alter powers as you see fit after play starts. Sometimes a power doesn't appear grossly overpowered on paper, but once you start playing you realise it is. I created classes for a campaign I am currently running. Well, they are actually professions. The players choose fighter, cleric, rogue, or wizard. The professions then open up based on race and class. I thought the professions I made were pretty balanced. They did include some sizable powercreep, but that can always be accounted for with encounter difficulty as long as the characters themselves maintain balanced. One power I created as an at-will included a stun until the end of the characters next turn. It was single target, but with stun until end of next turn the character could keep a single creature completely out of combat while dealing damage(it had a damage line) for the entire encounter. Once the character hit she could keep the creature stunned as combat advantage from the stun just made it easier to hit. I had to change the power to stunned until end of the targets next turn. This still allowed the player to keep the target (unless a solo or a creature with 2 turns/round) from taking an action, but the creature did not grant perma combat advantage anymore. This allowed more frequent misses by said character (and the restof the party) and less of a dependence on this one power. All and all it made the game fun again for me as DM because I didn't have a single character trivializing every BBEG encounter I threw at them anymore. So as long as those rules are agreed upon I would say no. If they can agree that you can veto or alter any and every suggestion for a new class ability/power/whatever, then sure go for it. I would really want to allow the creative input from the players. It sounds like something they would find very fun. I would really suggest getting them to agree to the above. It is fun having classes you made, as well as making the classes in the first place.
#5 Newanda Jan 25, 2012 7:04:16	Not saying they shouldn't, or couldn't, but why exactly do they want to create whole new classes? What roles and iconic styles of play are they not seeing represented? There are very few things not already in the system, and most of those don't work well in the 4th edition framework. That said, to create a class, they need to choose a (or, I guess, now technically can choose more than one) role, a power source or two, mechanics that are equivilant to, but not the same as other similar classes, a wide variety of powers, feat support, item support, and still have it not more or less powerful than other options. That's a lot of work, when most of the time, reflavoring what already exists works almost as well to cover whatever thay are imagining. If they can pull it off, more power to them, but mostly I see this as an exercise in frustration for everyone.
#6 enak101 Jan 25, 2012 17:20:30	You make some good points Newanda. It is an incredible amount of work and you probably could just play a different class refluffed. Go for it if you really need to though.
#7 incenjucar Jan 26, 2012 1:21:51	Building a new class can be rather difficult. Your best bet is to find a few classes of the same role and tweak powers to better suit your needs. I also suggest you make scaling Encounter and Daily powers to cut down on the number of powers you need to write. If you grab a class-neutral Paragon Path (or multi-class into one) you can get away with writing as few as 13 powers all the way to level 30 while using standard AEDU. This works for a build, too, which eliminates the need to build a class to attach the powers to. At-Will Powers 1 1 Encounter Powers 27>13>1 23>7 17>3 Daily Powers 29>15>1 25>9 19>5 Utilities 2 6 10 16 22
#8 mhbjarkistef Feb 07, 2012 0:47:44	Give them a link to the forums and send them to us! :D We love homebrewing, they just might too ^^ Creating an E-class is probably the easiest: You use basic attacks for almost everything. You have 2 minor action at-wills that modify your basic attack. You have an encounter power that triggers on a hit. You gain one use of it at level 1 and another at level 3 etc. You gain a couple of class-specific utility powers, as well as the usual utility powers. Fill'er up with fluff and you're good to go. Also, you might want them to take a look at this, the Classless DnD in my signature, and its updated thread here