Creative Writing and D&D, General design questions?!? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Creative Writing and D&D, General design questions?!?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
evilvegan
May 01, 2009 15:08:46 Hey all,

This question really goes to the creative writing geniuses who are also good encounter designers.

With the new design mechanic of 10 encounters per level and 10 levels per tier and 3 tiers, the new system lends itself (in my opinion) to a very structured "Triology Style" theme, complete with chapters. Thanks to the complete lack of ways to lose XP we can track character development by chapter, rather than level.

With that in mind, lets say I wanted to thematically work each level to be its own chapter in a ten chapter book, with each tier being its own book in a series.

I myself am very creative as far as campaign building and story ripping, but I'm really lacking in the development of plot and suspense (I don't even try).

Does anyone have any good suggestions on how to campaign build with a level = chapter and tier = book concept?

Just wanted to get a good dialogue with as many ideas as possible. Please discuss!

For example, theme ideas are good, such as horror, fantasy epic, action, etc, with a focus on when to have climax and catharsis and other literary concepts (preferably with decent laymen-friendly explanations).

I'm just trying to gather ideas together and mabye make a guide. . .
#2
phenom_sbbt_1985
May 01, 2009 16:16:14 Well if the trillogy is to be linked together and follow the progress of the characters throuought their journey the whole tier= trillogy concept is very simple.

In the heroic chapters the group will be discovering things, spending the first few levels (chapters) doing tasks that establish them as heroes. At about the middle of these levels you want to establish a main threat, have them discover a clue or omen as a sign of the evil. The later chapters of this book will be about the first encounters and major signs of the villain's presence in the world. End the book by having them defeat a minor villain or acomplishing something that has held them back until now giving the readers or players that the characters have truly advanced in power, this hails in their advancement to Paragon tier.

In the second book, paragon tier the characters should start off exploring their new powers and finding out more about the villains schemes. This is the part in the trillogy where the characters seem to be most able to deal with the threat but at some point the villain will reveal a mighty power or do something terrible that shatters the parties delusions. This is the equivelant of Helms Deep in the two towers.

The epic tier will eventually wrap up the story. The characters build themselves back up, dust themselves off, acomplish their goals that have been establised in previous chapters and books. All leading up to the final climax. To increase the drama there could be something in the middle where the characters either feel worthless, they lose something valuable to them or a final twist is revealed. This could be the motivation the characters need to finally take a stand (think when Valeria died near the end of Conan the Barbarian)

Now how to practically turn each level into a chapter. Well the easiest way I could think of doing is making each adventure in the campaign advance the players one level. The first adventure could be the PC's helping a small village protect itself from pirates which could then make them into local heroes. In terms of tension you want to have highs and lows in each adventure and always leave the ending as a question even if the question is simply "where do they go from here?" The end of your chapter should always leave the audience wanting more just as an adventure leaves the players talking about what happens next.

I'm no creative writing genius by any means but I hope this helped at least a little.
#3
Dreamstryder
May 02, 2009 1:26:14 If you're not advancing them a level automatically at the end of a chapter (not keeping track of XP), then you may have a harder time of it; XP gain can be irregular, organic, & trying to control it during play is a pain in the pituitary. Frankly, tallying XP up after the chapter closes seems the best option to me; all you'd keep track of during play would be "Lv 5 x4, Lv 3 x5, Lv 4 Elite x2," etc, & then recount the tale & hand out handfuls of XP based on how much the PC developed as a character over this chapter. This means it will be harder for the fallen, if they survive, to miss out on XP & will allow laggers to catch up, if need be.

Enough about XP. For unfolding stories, check out this post (from this thread).
Expostion: Many stories introduce the players and background situation in the start.
Rising:Stakes start upping in the conflict, and you start to see why everyone is the way they are.
Climax: The core situation is demonstrated in extreme, all groups come together to represent their parties in the conflict.
Falling Action, Resolution: We see what becomes of it.
It's plain how the tiers can fit into these portions with the Resolution being the epilogue, but this structure can be used to make a single chapter or to make a book, not just the overall series structure.

Book
Levels 1-3: Exposition
4-7: Rising
8-10: Climax

Chapter
-PCs scope out the area, interact with the NPCs.
-PCs investigate stuff, NPCs & areas are explored.
-What's the verdict?

Don't think too rigidly in this structure; thinking too systematically is a good way to strangle yourself into a block, I find. For example, one chapter doesn't need to be about only one thing, and writing to illustrate a moral can restrict the outcomes of events into a boringly straightforward & trite resolution. D&D is basically about handing your players a situation and allowing them to probe it as you describe what each probe does. It's basic, but reminding oneself of it at times helps tame controllist urges.
#4
herald108
May 02, 2009 3:16:59
With that in mind, lets say I wanted to thematically work each level to be its own chapter in a ten chapter book, with each tier being its own book in a series.

That's exactly how I do it. Execpt, I'm running 6-8 encounters per level (or chapter). But then, my encounters don't go underlevel and I like to challenge the players. But 'three-levels-over' is still my limit (for now).

I myself am very creative as far as campaign building and story ripping, but I'm really lacking in the development of plot and suspense (I don't even try).

Maybe you should try.

Does anyone have any good suggestions on how to campaign build with a level = chapter and tier = book concept?

Figure out an overall story arc. Then break this down into smaller story arcs. Throw in all the encounters you can. Brainstorm. Some of these encounters you won't need, some will change and new encounters will take shape.
#5
evilvegan
May 02, 2009 11:09:53 Wonderful posts! I especially like the linked post.

@herald108: I do have a story arc, my current campaign is suffering from a serious roster change up. My original party is gone save 1 character due to scheduling, moving away, and one guy grognard-flaking (got tired of 4e and flaked out).

The original heroic teir was going to start off with the beginning of a genocidal war started by the warforged, which they eventually were supposed to uncover was caused by a staged attack against the warforged by an unknown third party (end-game bbeg). The party decided to attempt to stop the war (they were given 3 days to recover the soul of a murdered warforged general). When they actually recovered the soul and were on their way back to stop the war, they were attacked by a "Covert ops" warforged force that were trying to keep the war on schedule. They succeeded in stopping the initial battle, but eventually the third party became more overt and took about 50% of the warforged forces and destroyed the city. This was around the end of heroic teir.

Plot points I never got to explore:
The "bad guy", Igrav'tha, is trying to ascend to demi-god status; he is a soul that gets reincarnated every few generations as a force of chaos and destruction.
One of the PCs is also the reborn Aifraed, a soul born to oppose the "badguy".
The goodguy/badguy dichotomy is an echo of an ancient ritual.
The goodguy is actually to blame for all the major problems of the past, since it was his ritual that caused them both to echo throughout time and without that single selfish act (attempting to stop death) the badguy wouldn't have reincarnated with him.
The island the party starts on is the prison of the dragongods, Tiamat, Bahamut, and Kirin'tha; set in place by the Time Lords. This was going to tie in with a few of the dragonborn in the party.

I was toying with the idea that the PC was actually the reborn "bad guy", just because he (the player) seemed to be extremely random and intentionally destructive on occasion.

So all of that was great (I think), but then the "good guy" moved away, the dragonborn character perma-died, the player that murdered the warforged general stopped playing, and other the other players from day 1 just stopped showing up. Only 1 character from the original 5 is still in the group.

So now the campaign is about restoring magic to the world by visiting various temples and ruins. Most of the world is devoid of magic,except for the dragongod prison and the resting place of the Ancients. The Ancient's created the source of magic, but the previous era drained it almost completely to the point that a failsafe activated and only a few minor area still had magic (to keep the dragongods imprisoned and the Ancients protected). There was a second prison in the arctic for the demons of the world, but that was handled in the previous era (my last campaign in 3e was about stopping the demons, which started with a worldwide collapse of magic and the heroes had to visit the same temples to get enough magic to strike at the demon-horde's center to disrupt their source).

They have to restore magic to bring up the illusionary shield that covers the planet and keeps it concealed from outside forces, such as the Gith and Aboleth. And since magic collapsed 1000 years ago the source has had enough time to recover, so its time. The only problem is that while they're doing this to stop outside forces from destroying/conquering, the "badguy" is still searching for artifacts and rituals to ascend, which may actually deplete magic fully, freeing the dragongods and destroying the planet....

My Current plot just seems a bit lacking, which may be more of a problem from player/character "wivvliness". At least one of them is a "leap and scream" style character, making it hard to get any RP out of the party, because who's going to talk with a half-earth giant barbarian is swinging his vicious executioner's axe at them? One of my player's very new and is not comfortable with RP yet and one is a great RPer, but a huge flake that shows up for 1 out of 3 sessions...

But this thread is more for campaign design that starts as going along literary lines rather than the typical "organic" growth of standard D&D. It would be considerably less forgiving of story deviation, but sometimes that can be beneficial. I myself rarely "plan" anything, even most of the stuff above came from off-the-cuff DMing that I just threw in when the players decided to go one direction rather than another. . .

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 evilvegan May 01, 2009 15:08:46	Hey all, This question really goes to the creative writing geniuses who are also good encounter designers. With the new design mechanic of 10 encounters per level and 10 levels per tier and 3 tiers, the new system lends itself (in my opinion) to a very structured "Triology Style" theme, complete with chapters. Thanks to the complete lack of ways to lose XP we can track character development by chapter, rather than level. With that in mind, lets say I wanted to thematically work each level to be its own chapter in a ten chapter book, with each tier being its own book in a series. I myself am very creative as far as campaign building and story ripping, but I'm really lacking in the development of plot and suspense (I don't even try). Does anyone have any good suggestions on how to campaign build with a level = chapter and tier = book concept? Just wanted to get a good dialogue with as many ideas as possible. Please discuss! For example, theme ideas are good, such as horror, fantasy epic, action, etc, with a focus on when to have climax and catharsis and other literary concepts (preferably with decent laymen-friendly explanations). I'm just trying to gather ideas together and mabye make a guide. . .
#2 phenom_sbbt_1985 May 01, 2009 16:16:14	Well if the trillogy is to be linked together and follow the progress of the characters throuought their journey the whole tier= trillogy concept is very simple. In the heroic chapters the group will be discovering things, spending the first few levels (chapters) doing tasks that establish them as heroes. At about the middle of these levels you want to establish a main threat, have them discover a clue or omen as a sign of the evil. The later chapters of this book will be about the first encounters and major signs of the villain's presence in the world. End the book by having them defeat a minor villain or acomplishing something that has held them back until now giving the readers or players that the characters have truly advanced in power, this hails in their advancement to Paragon tier. In the second book, paragon tier the characters should start off exploring their new powers and finding out more about the villains schemes. This is the part in the trillogy where the characters seem to be most able to deal with the threat but at some point the villain will reveal a mighty power or do something terrible that shatters the parties delusions. This is the equivelant of Helms Deep in the two towers. The epic tier will eventually wrap up the story. The characters build themselves back up, dust themselves off, acomplish their goals that have been establised in previous chapters and books. All leading up to the final climax. To increase the drama there could be something in the middle where the characters either feel worthless, they lose something valuable to them or a final twist is revealed. This could be the motivation the characters need to finally take a stand (think when Valeria died near the end of Conan the Barbarian) Now how to practically turn each level into a chapter. Well the easiest way I could think of doing is making each adventure in the campaign advance the players one level. The first adventure could be the PC's helping a small village protect itself from pirates which could then make them into local heroes. In terms of tension you want to have highs and lows in each adventure and always leave the ending as a question even if the question is simply "where do they go from here?" The end of your chapter should always leave the audience wanting more just as an adventure leaves the players talking about what happens next. I'm no creative writing genius by any means but I hope this helped at least a little.
#3 Dreamstryder May 02, 2009 1:26:14	If you're not advancing them a level automatically at the end of a chapter (not keeping track of XP), then you may have a harder time of it; XP gain can be irregular, organic, & trying to control it during play is a pain in the pituitary. Frankly, tallying XP up after the chapter closes seems the best option to me; all you'd keep track of during play would be "Lv 5 x4, Lv 3 x5, Lv 4 Elite x2," etc, & then recount the tale & hand out handfuls of XP based on how much the PC developed as a character over this chapter. This means it will be harder for the fallen, if they survive, to miss out on XP & will allow laggers to catch up, if need be. Enough about XP. For unfolding stories, check out this post (from this thread). Expostion: Many stories introduce the players and background situation in the start. Rising:Stakes start upping in the conflict, and you start to see why everyone is the way they are. Climax: The core situation is demonstrated in extreme, all groups come together to represent their parties in the conflict. Falling Action, Resolution: We see what becomes of it. It's plain how the tiers can fit into these portions with the Resolution being the epilogue, but this structure can be used to make a single chapter or to make a book, not just the overall series structure. Book Levels 1-3: Exposition 4-7: Rising 8-10: Climax Chapter -PCs scope out the area, interact with the NPCs. -PCs investigate stuff, NPCs & areas are explored. -What's the verdict? Don't think too rigidly in this structure; thinking too systematically is a good way to strangle yourself into a block, I find. For example, one chapter doesn't need to be about only one thing, and writing to illustrate a moral can restrict the outcomes of events into a boringly straightforward & trite resolution. D&D is basically about handing your players a situation and allowing them to probe it as you describe what each probe does. It's basic, but reminding oneself of it at times helps tame controllist urges.
#4 herald108 May 02, 2009 3:16:59	With that in mind, lets say I wanted to thematically work each level to be its own chapter in a ten chapter book, with each tier being its own book in a series. That's exactly how I do it. Execpt, I'm running 6-8 encounters per level (or chapter). But then, my encounters don't go underlevel and I like to challenge the players. But 'three-levels-over' is still my limit (for now). I myself am very creative as far as campaign building and story ripping, but I'm really lacking in the development of plot and suspense (I don't even try). Maybe you should try. Does anyone have any good suggestions on how to campaign build with a level = chapter and tier = book concept? Figure out an overall story arc. Then break this down into smaller story arcs. Throw in all the encounters you can. Brainstorm. Some of these encounters you won't need, some will change and new encounters will take shape.
#5 evilvegan May 02, 2009 11:09:53	Wonderful posts! I especially like the linked post. @herald108: I do have a story arc, my current campaign is suffering from a serious roster change up. My original party is gone save 1 character due to scheduling, moving away, and one guy grognard-flaking (got tired of 4e and flaked out). The original heroic teir was going to start off with the beginning of a genocidal war started by the warforged, which they eventually were supposed to uncover was caused by a staged attack against the warforged by an unknown third party (end-game bbeg). The party decided to attempt to stop the war (they were given 3 days to recover the soul of a murdered warforged general). When they actually recovered the soul and were on their way back to stop the war, they were attacked by a "Covert ops" warforged force that were trying to keep the war on schedule. They succeeded in stopping the initial battle, but eventually the third party became more overt and took about 50% of the warforged forces and destroyed the city. This was around the end of heroic teir. Plot points I never got to explore: The "bad guy", Igrav'tha, is trying to ascend to demi-god status; he is a soul that gets reincarnated every few generations as a force of chaos and destruction. One of the PCs is also the reborn Aifraed, a soul born to oppose the "badguy". The goodguy/badguy dichotomy is an echo of an ancient ritual. The goodguy is actually to blame for all the major problems of the past, since it was his ritual that caused them both to echo throughout time and without that single selfish act (attempting to stop death) the badguy wouldn't have reincarnated with him. The island the party starts on is the prison of the dragongods, Tiamat, Bahamut, and Kirin'tha; set in place by the Time Lords. This was going to tie in with a few of the dragonborn in the party. I was toying with the idea that the PC was actually the reborn "bad guy", just because he (the player) seemed to be extremely random and intentionally destructive on occasion. So all of that was great (I think), but then the "good guy" moved away, the dragonborn character perma-died, the player that murdered the warforged general stopped playing, and other the other players from day 1 just stopped showing up. Only 1 character from the original 5 is still in the group. So now the campaign is about restoring magic to the world by visiting various temples and ruins. Most of the world is devoid of magic,except for the dragongod prison and the resting place of the Ancients. The Ancient's created the source of magic, but the previous era drained it almost completely to the point that a failsafe activated and only a few minor area still had magic (to keep the dragongods imprisoned and the Ancients protected). There was a second prison in the arctic for the demons of the world, but that was handled in the previous era (my last campaign in 3e was about stopping the demons, which started with a worldwide collapse of magic and the heroes had to visit the same temples to get enough magic to strike at the demon-horde's center to disrupt their source). They have to restore magic to bring up the illusionary shield that covers the planet and keeps it concealed from outside forces, such as the Gith and Aboleth. And since magic collapsed 1000 years ago the source has had enough time to recover, so its time. The only problem is that while they're doing this to stop outside forces from destroying/conquering, the "badguy" is still searching for artifacts and rituals to ascend, which may actually deplete magic fully, freeing the dragongods and destroying the planet.... My Current plot just seems a bit lacking, which may be more of a problem from player/character "wivvliness". At least one of them is a "leap and scream" style character, making it hard to get any RP out of the party, because who's going to talk with a half-earth giant barbarian is swinging his vicious executioner's axe at them? One of my player's very new and is not comfortable with RP yet and one is a great RPer, but a huge flake that shows up for 1 out of 3 sessions... But this thread is more for campaign design that starts as going along literary lines rather than the typical "organic" growth of standard D&D. It would be considerably less forgiving of story deviation, but sometimes that can be beneficial. I myself rarely "plan" anything, even most of the stuff above came from off-the-cuff DMing that I just threw in when the players decided to go one direction rather than another. . .