Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 syne_lau Jan 06, 2009 21:31:06	I'm not sure if this has been done before, but here is my take on a Critical Fumble table that can work against both the PCs and the Monsters they face.
#2 erk_ Jan 06, 2009 21:56:07	I've never been fond of critical fumbles... anyway, a lot of these seem completely out of the blue. So, I swing my sword poorly and suddenly my vision goes blurry? I lose my memory? My skin starts festering?!? I can see no way to fluff those to make sense. I like a couple. Specifically 6, 8(though it's a bit too undignified), 11 (very good one but should only last until start of your next turn), 12 (but it should be an opportunity attack, not a free action, to limit it to 1/turn), 14 (should read shift not slide), and 20. The rest just seem very contrived, and often extremely severe for an effect that comes up quite often. I'd limit the chart to be about 75% "no effect" critical fumbles (your #20) since rolls of 1 come up very often.
#3 bastard_dm Jan 07, 2009 11:19:04	Critical Fumbles are a bad idea. They hurt characters that attack multiple targets substantially more than those that target one enemy per turn. You also get stuck with either generating several tables for each type of attack (ala RoleMaster) or using a single generic one (like you have here) that doesn't make sense for a lot of attacks. And the odds are always way too high! What kind of moron critically fumbles on the routine tasks they are trained in 5% of the time? Or even 1% of the time? The math already works out- a roll of a 1 is always a miss, just like a roll of a 20 is always a hit. That should be penalty enough. That having been said, if you're a part of an unusual group of players that enjoys this sort of thing (and let's face it, in this hobby, every group is at least a little "unusual"), then go for it. It's certainly not the worst critical fumble table I've ever seen.
#4 1shmael Jan 07, 2009 21:51:14	And the odds are always way too high! What kind of moron critically fumbles on the routine tasks they are trained in 5% of the time? Or even 1% of the time? In battle? Most combat is not won by the victor. It is lost by the vanquished. It is critical errors and mis-steps that more-often-than not seal the fate of the one who loses. Under stress, mistakes get made even by the best. The best just make fewer of them. I use critical fumble tables for two reasons. The first is that they are fun! The second is that they add a level of unpredictability and imperfection to events in combat. Nothing like a really well orchestrated plan falling apart because someone tripped or lost their weapon -- or the bow-string snaps on their crossbow. The ciritical fumble table I have is an old one I found on the Web, house-ruled for 2E but it works fine for 4E. I turn to it when a player or monster rolls a 1 on an attack roll and then fails a Reflex save (fails to roll lower than the their Reflex score on a second d20).
#5 nachtsieger Jan 08, 2009 6:04:14	Wow, this is a really, really terrible idea.
#6 envoke Jan 08, 2009 14:39:53	In battle? Most combat is not won by the victor. It is lost by the vanquished. It is critical errors and mis-steps that more-often-than not seal the fate of the one who loses. Under stress, mistakes get made even by the best. The best just make fewer of them. I use critical fumble tables for two reasons. The first is that they are fun! The second is that they add a level of unpredictability and imperfection to events in combat. Nothing like a really well orchestrated plan falling apart because someone tripped or lost their weapon -- or the bow-string snaps on their crossbow. The ciritical fumble table I have is an old one I found on the Web, house-ruled for 2E but it works fine for 4E. I turn to it when a player or monster rolls a 1 on an attack roll and then fails a Reflex save (fails to roll lower than the their Reflex score on a second d20). I'm really for the idea of Critical fumbles, but as long as you dont let it go out of hand. What I would say, is that if you were to use these, roll a percentile behind your screen after the player/monster misses, if it comes up higher then 75%, then they get a critical fumble and they have to roll a D20 and get the desired result. Otherwise, it's a miss... Your adding stability to a game of chance, thats not really fair to the player. If they miss they wont _always_ cut themselves, or if they trip, they're not always going to start daydreaming. If you add in the idea of percentile-chance, then at least your giving the player a chance of recovery.
#7 syne_lau Jan 08, 2009 15:10:33	Just one thing to note: Half of the effects listed are (save ends), which means that usually during your standard action when you made your critical fumble, you have a chance to save against the effect before it takes hold. I agree though that the chart does seem harsh, so I won't use it for any of the games I DM. The critical fumble doesn't have to be a mishap caused by your own undoing, but it could be the wrong circumstances and the environment surrounding you. For example, while fighting in old catacombs, accumulation of dust swells up and gets into your eyes. It doesn't necessarily have to be the player that screwed up, but that fate is cursing the player somewhat. What if I use a lighter version of a Critical Fumble table? Something not so devestating...
#8 anticore Jan 16, 2009 1:28:23	Hey there! Since Advanced DnD I have had a home brew crit and fumble chart. Since the advent of 3e I havent used it except in a few times just to knock the dust off of it.... Anymore its useless. As a GM-Storyteller its my duty to describe the fight and I have the freedom to describe the critical fumble as I see fit. I used to have a 200 list for EACH fumble and crit. Not to mention crits and fumbles based on weapon type and body part.... it was very detailed, however after almost 20 years of playing DnD with basically the same group of people, it becomes a bad show when something like missing a swing of a sword has an outcome not at all related to the fight itself. Thats why now I simply look at the fight in my mind like a movie. If the group is fighting in really close quarters on a fumble there could be a chance to hit another person, or even yourself. On occasion of I broken a bow after the ranger fumbled three times in a row, and I bent up a few swords too.. Basically what I am trying to say is, at least in my experiences with who I game with they would rather experience the result of a fumble or crit like real life. Unexpected and related to the situation, also taking the time to roll on a chart only lengthens the fight and can in some cases throw the flow of the game off for a while. I am not against a fumble/crit chart, however I can see more benefit from just using storytelling skills to paint a vivid picture and create a seamless and fun experience for the players. Cheers mate! -Antcore
#9 mufflon Jan 16, 2009 4:05:23	In battle? Most combat is not won by the victor. It is lost by the vanquished. It is critical errors and mis-steps that more-often-than not seal the fate of the one who loses. Under stress, mistakes get made even by the best. The best just make fewer of them. Yes, but combat in 4th edition isn't really meant to be realistic. Instead it's focused on over-the-top action fantasy but with the large amount of attack rolls that will be made by the PCs, a game with fumbles will usually end up look more like The Three Stooges.
#10 sefotron Jan 16, 2009 7:02:21	We just have it that a natural "1" means the individuals turn (be they player or foe) ends there, and they grant Combat Advantage until the start of their next turn. Works well too and leaves plenty of room for appropriate description of why the effects have occured :D
#11 tylara67 Jan 16, 2009 22:18:14	We usually base the results of a critical fumble off what you were trying to do. Roll a 1 when trying to hit a foe with a spiked chain? You smacked your buddy next to him in the back of the head for normal damage. Roll a 1 when charging? You fall on your face next to the enemy you charged. Rolling a 1 on one of many attack rolls for an AOE should not result in a critical fumble.
#12 1shmael Jan 18, 2009 10:26:04	I'm not sure if this has been done before, but here is my take on a Critical Fumble table that can work against both the PCs and the Monsters they face. This thread may interest you: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1137258