Critical hits and fumbles - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Critical hits and fumbles

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
cognis
Dec 08, 2008 17:02:03 There are no rules to cover effects of critical misses and fumbles but my group plays that if you confirm a critical hit (now usually a 20) you get to roll a d100 and receive a bonus effect; similarly when you roll a 1 you get another d20 roll, and if you don't beat the targets defense you get to roll a d100 and receive an effect from a fumble chart. Now, we used some old charts for 2nd and 3rd edition but they don't really translate well into 4th. I whipped up a critical hit table on my own but it's lacking a lot of possibility. I'd like to have one with as much effects possible. I'd like to have a fumble chart that would be fun and sometimes cruel. So if anyone's interested in helping with building these charts you're welcome. I always liked them because they add extra flavor to the game, excitement when you roll 20 and that feeling of dread when a 1 comes up Here's what I got so far, not much but not bad for less than an hours work.

1 – 10 Target pushed 2 squares
11 – 20 Target grants Combat Advantage until the end of your next turn
21 – 30 Target knocked prone
31 – 35 Target is dazed (save ends); First failed save (stunned); Second failed save (unconscious-save ends)
36 – 40 Target is stunned (save ends); First failed save (unconscious-save ends)
41 – 45 Add 1[W] damage
46 – 50 Add 2[W] damage
51 – 52 Add 3[W] damage
53 – 54 Add 4[W] damage
55 – 56 Leg muscle hit; ½ movement until short rest taken
57 – 58 Leg muscle hit; ½ movement until extended rest taken
59 – 60 Leg muscle hit; immobilized until short rest taken
61 – 62 Leg muscle hit; immobilized until extended rest taken
63 – 64 Arm muscle hit; -2 to hit until short rest taken
65 – 66 Arm muscle hit; -2 to hit until extended rest taken
67 – 68 Arm muscle hit; -4 to hit until short rest taken
69 – 70 Arm muscle hit; -4 to hit until extended rest taken
71 – 72 Target takes 5 ongoing damage (save ends)
73 – 74 Target takes 10 ongoing damage (save ends)
75 – 76 Target Blinded until the end of your next turn
77 – 78 Target is knocked unconscious (save ends)
79 – 80 Deal precision damage (Sneak attack, Quarry...) even if you used it this turn or roll again if you don’t deal precision based damage
81 – 82 Add 5[W] damage
83 – 84 Maximize all damage (Sneak attack, Quarry, extra weapon damage...)
85 – 86 Multiply all damage by 1.5
87 – 88 You may immediately use an At-Will attack power against the target with a +2 bonus to hit and damage
89 – 90 You may immediately use an At-Will attack power against the target with a +4 bonus to hit and damage
91 – 92 Add 6[W] damage
93 – 94 Target takes 15 ongoing damage (save ends)
95 – 96 Double all damage
97 Roll twice; if 97-100 rolled – instant kill
98 Roll three more times; if 97 – 100 rolled – instant kill
99 Instant kill in a very nasty and brutal way
100 DM’s choice (must be something memorable)
#2
eldiran
Dec 08, 2008 17:42:50 From the way you have this laid out, apparently critical hit bonuses only apply to PCs? Because many of these effects can't be applied to monster criticals (+[W] damage, precision damage, etc...)

(Note: the +[W] damage also doesn't apply properly to spells. Also, it may be more than a little weird when a Will-affecting spell critically hits someone's leg muscles.)

Also, this makes criticals much more lethal. Note that classes/feats/powers with crit-related abilities are much better with this houserule. If I recall correctly, there is even a paragon path that can "manufacture" an automatic critical as a power. As such, I think it would be wise for you to restrict these effects to only a natural 20.

Lastly, I personally would recommend the fumble chart only take effect when a character rolls a 1 and then rolls another 1 on a confirmation roll. Our group uses this for critical fumbles, and contrary to what you'd expect, it still happens often enough.

More lastly, make absolutely sure your group is cool with these crit tables/fumble tables before you put them into practice.
#3
demiteddybear
Dec 09, 2008 4:10:20 I agree Eldiran that makes criticals much more lethal, and I think it makes them specially lethal at lower levels. You'll have low level PCs doing things that they should only be doing closer to level 30.
Although if you made a fumble list that was equally bad as the criticals are good then you might make up for it. So I definitely think that getting closer to 100 on the fumbles should kill the character, pretty much like the criticals list but applying to the PC instead of the NPC
#4
cognis
Dec 09, 2008 5:18:42 These charts apply to PC's and monsters so it's lethal all way round. My group loves charts like this because it can always turn the tide, we focus more on role playing with less combat so we try every fight something special and these charts are great for that. If something can't be applied than you roll again or make something up in that line; charm effect wouldn't immobilize you because of it hit your leg muscle but because it messed with your mind etc. I'm trying to make a fumble table that would be disastrous but I'm without inspiration. If anybody has any suggestions they would be great because I'd like to make two great charts. So if you have any suggestions for effects for fumbles and critical hits, by all means, post away
#5
Stuntman
Dec 09, 2008 16:03:04 My comments tend to be using 4E standards as much as possible such as using the conditions listed PHB p. 277 if your effect seems similar.

55 – 56 Leg muscle hit; ½ movement until short rest taken
57 – 58 Leg muscle hit; ½ movement until extended rest taken

I recommend you use the slowed condition. That is the standard in 4E for reducing movement.

63 – 64 Arm muscle hit; -2 to hit until short rest taken
65 – 66 Arm muscle hit; -2 to hit until extended rest taken
67 – 68 Arm muscle hit; -4 to hit until short rest taken
69 – 70 Arm muscle hit; -4 to hit until extended rest taken

These penalties seem very severe to me. I would suggest -1 and -2 instead of -2 and -4.

83 – 84 Maximize all damage (Sneak attack, Quarry, extra weapon damage...)

This is almost exactly the same as a critical hit. You could just call this a critical hit instead.

87 – 88 You may immediately use an At-Will attack power against the target with a +2 bonus to hit and damage
89 – 90 You may immediately use an At-Will attack power against the target with a +4 bonus to hit and damage

Being able to immediately use an at-will attack power is pretty strong to being with. I would suggest that 87-88 just grants the use of the at-will and 89-90 grants the use of an at-will with Combat Advantage.

97 Roll twice; if 97-100 rolled – instant kill
98 Roll three more times; if 97 – 100 rolled – instant kill
99 Instant kill in a very nasty and brutal way

Instant kill? :OMG! Just FYI, the design philosophy in 4E is to remove effects that instantly kill anything. Even though the chances are very slim with your table, no effect in the official 4E rules does instant kills no matter how small. Well, if you and your players like it then go ahead.
#6
cognis
Dec 09, 2008 17:39:45 Thnx for the info. As I said, it's only a draft table based on an old 2E table. I also don't like instant kills, but hey, players love them, even though it can go against them.
#7
Stuntman
Dec 10, 2008 0:11:44
63 – 64 Arm muscle hit; -2 to hit until short rest taken
65 – 66 Arm muscle hit; -2 to hit until extended rest taken
67 – 68 Arm muscle hit; -4 to hit until short rest taken
69 – 70 Arm muscle hit; -4 to hit until extended rest taken

One other comment. Penalties add together, so a few of these and the creature might not be able to hit anything for the rest of the day. When it happens to monsters, they are not as severe because monsters tend to die by the end of the encounter. When a PC gets too many of these penalties, he's practically useless for a potentially significant period of time.

You may want to keep these penalties low (-1 and maybe -2). Alternatively, you may want to make a particular penalty not stack with any other penalties.
#8
cognis
Dec 10, 2008 4:43:46 I think I'll change -2 to -1 and -4 to -2 and change the durations so it will be "until end of the encounter" and "until short rest taken". Furthermore I'll change 1/2 movement penalties to slowed "until end of the encounter" and to "until short rest taken" and I'll change duration of the immobilized condition to "until end of the encounter" and to "until short rest taken". Thanx for the info, does anybody have any suggestions what to add to the table, I thought about disarming and such.
#9
cognis
Dec 10, 2008 4:50:29
83 – 84 Maximize all damage (Sneak attack, Quarry, extra weapon damage...)

This is almost exactly the same as a critical hit. You could just call this a critical hit instead.

It isn't like a normal critical. Lets say you're a rogue nand you have a +3 dagger, you score a critical and deal Sneak attack damage.

Normal critical would be 4 (dagger) + 3 (enchantment) + 3d6 (critical bonus) + 3d6 (enchantment) which would put the damage to anywhere form 13 to 43, but if you roll 83-84 on the chart you get 43 damage. That's what differentiates it from the normal critical strike.
#10
demiteddybear
Dec 10, 2008 6:11:40
It isn't like a normal critical. Lets say you're a rogue nand you have a +3 dagger, you score a critical and deal Sneak attack damage.

Normal critical would be 4 (dagger) + 3 (enchantment) + 3d6 (critical bonus) + 3d6 (enchantment) which would put the damage to anywhere form 13 to 43, but if you roll 83-84 on the chart you get 43 damage. That's what differentiates it from the normal critical strike.

Actually that is a critical hit where you deal maximum damage. Thats what a critical hit is all about
#11
cognis
Dec 10, 2008 6:32:00 Yeah, but the critical hit deals maximum damage + other extra damage dice (+3d6 from a +3 daggre) which are not maximized. That's the difference.
#12
Stuntman
Dec 10, 2008 16:20:14
Yeah, but the critical hit deals maximum damage + other extra damage dice (+3d6 from a +3 daggre) which are not maximized. That's the difference.

I understand that the result on your chart is not the same as a critical hit. However, since it is similar, I would recommend just calling it a critical hit. The reason is that everyone knows what you roll and what you max on a critical hit. If you make it different, you may confuse people and slow things down a bit. Since you have so many different effects on your chart, anything that simplifies what the result is would be that is consistent with an existing rule would be beneficial.

My reason for suggesting calling this a critical hit instead of maximise damage is for the same reason I suggested using the slowed condition instead of 1/2 x speed.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 cognis Dec 08, 2008 17:02:03	There are no rules to cover effects of critical misses and fumbles but my group plays that if you confirm a critical hit (now usually a 20) you get to roll a d100 and receive a bonus effect; similarly when you roll a 1 you get another d20 roll, and if you don't beat the targets defense you get to roll a d100 and receive an effect from a fumble chart. Now, we used some old charts for 2nd and 3rd edition but they don't really translate well into 4th. I whipped up a critical hit table on my own but it's lacking a lot of possibility. I'd like to have one with as much effects possible. I'd like to have a fumble chart that would be fun and sometimes cruel. So if anyone's interested in helping with building these charts you're welcome. I always liked them because they add extra flavor to the game, excitement when you roll 20 and that feeling of dread when a 1 comes up Here's what I got so far, not much but not bad for less than an hours work. 1 – 10 Target pushed 2 squares 11 – 20 Target grants Combat Advantage until the end of your next turn 21 – 30 Target knocked prone 31 – 35 Target is dazed (save ends); First failed save (stunned); Second failed save (unconscious-save ends) 36 – 40 Target is stunned (save ends); First failed save (unconscious-save ends) 41 – 45 Add 1[W] damage 46 – 50 Add 2[W] damage 51 – 52 Add 3[W] damage 53 – 54 Add 4[W] damage 55 – 56 Leg muscle hit; ½ movement until short rest taken 57 – 58 Leg muscle hit; ½ movement until extended rest taken 59 – 60 Leg muscle hit; immobilized until short rest taken 61 – 62 Leg muscle hit; immobilized until extended rest taken 63 – 64 Arm muscle hit; -2 to hit until short rest taken 65 – 66 Arm muscle hit; -2 to hit until extended rest taken 67 – 68 Arm muscle hit; -4 to hit until short rest taken 69 – 70 Arm muscle hit; -4 to hit until extended rest taken 71 – 72 Target takes 5 ongoing damage (save ends) 73 – 74 Target takes 10 ongoing damage (save ends) 75 – 76 Target Blinded until the end of your next turn 77 – 78 Target is knocked unconscious (save ends) 79 – 80 Deal precision damage (Sneak attack, Quarry...) even if you used it this turn or roll again if you don’t deal precision based damage 81 – 82 Add 5[W] damage 83 – 84 Maximize all damage (Sneak attack, Quarry, extra weapon damage...) 85 – 86 Multiply all damage by 1.5 87 – 88 You may immediately use an At-Will attack power against the target with a +2 bonus to hit and damage 89 – 90 You may immediately use an At-Will attack power against the target with a +4 bonus to hit and damage 91 – 92 Add 6[W] damage 93 – 94 Target takes 15 ongoing damage (save ends) 95 – 96 Double all damage 97 Roll twice; if 97-100 rolled – instant kill 98 Roll three more times; if 97 – 100 rolled – instant kill 99 Instant kill in a very nasty and brutal way 100 DM’s choice (must be something memorable)
#2 eldiran Dec 08, 2008 17:42:50	From the way you have this laid out, apparently critical hit bonuses only apply to PCs? Because many of these effects can't be applied to monster criticals (+[W] damage, precision damage, etc...) (Note: the +[W] damage also doesn't apply properly to spells. Also, it may be more than a little weird when a Will-affecting spell critically hits someone's leg muscles.) Also, this makes criticals much more lethal. Note that classes/feats/powers with crit-related abilities are much better with this houserule. If I recall correctly, there is even a paragon path that can "manufacture" an automatic critical as a power. As such, I think it would be wise for you to restrict these effects to only a natural 20. Lastly, I personally would recommend the fumble chart only take effect when a character rolls a 1 and then rolls another 1 on a confirmation roll. Our group uses this for critical fumbles, and contrary to what you'd expect, it still happens often enough. More lastly, make absolutely sure your group is cool with these crit tables/fumble tables before you put them into practice.
#3 demiteddybear Dec 09, 2008 4:10:20	I agree Eldiran that makes criticals much more lethal, and I think it makes them specially lethal at lower levels. You'll have low level PCs doing things that they should only be doing closer to level 30. Although if you made a fumble list that was equally bad as the criticals are good then you might make up for it. So I definitely think that getting closer to 100 on the fumbles should kill the character, pretty much like the criticals list but applying to the PC instead of the NPC
#4 cognis Dec 09, 2008 5:18:42	These charts apply to PC's and monsters so it's lethal all way round. My group loves charts like this because it can always turn the tide, we focus more on role playing with less combat so we try every fight something special and these charts are great for that. If something can't be applied than you roll again or make something up in that line; charm effect wouldn't immobilize you because of it hit your leg muscle but because it messed with your mind etc. I'm trying to make a fumble table that would be disastrous but I'm without inspiration. If anybody has any suggestions they would be great because I'd like to make two great charts. So if you have any suggestions for effects for fumbles and critical hits, by all means, post away
#5 Stuntman Dec 09, 2008 16:03:04	My comments tend to be using 4E standards as much as possible such as using the conditions listed PHB p. 277 if your effect seems similar. 55 – 56 Leg muscle hit; ½ movement until short rest taken 57 – 58 Leg muscle hit; ½ movement until extended rest taken I recommend you use the slowed condition. That is the standard in 4E for reducing movement. 63 – 64 Arm muscle hit; -2 to hit until short rest taken 65 – 66 Arm muscle hit; -2 to hit until extended rest taken 67 – 68 Arm muscle hit; -4 to hit until short rest taken 69 – 70 Arm muscle hit; -4 to hit until extended rest taken These penalties seem very severe to me. I would suggest -1 and -2 instead of -2 and -4. 83 – 84 Maximize all damage (Sneak attack, Quarry, extra weapon damage...) This is almost exactly the same as a critical hit. You could just call this a critical hit instead. 87 – 88 You may immediately use an At-Will attack power against the target with a +2 bonus to hit and damage 89 – 90 You may immediately use an At-Will attack power against the target with a +4 bonus to hit and damage Being able to immediately use an at-will attack power is pretty strong to being with. I would suggest that 87-88 just grants the use of the at-will and 89-90 grants the use of an at-will with Combat Advantage. 97 Roll twice; if 97-100 rolled – instant kill 98 Roll three more times; if 97 – 100 rolled – instant kill 99 Instant kill in a very nasty and brutal way Instant kill? :OMG! Just FYI, the design philosophy in 4E is to remove effects that instantly kill anything. Even though the chances are very slim with your table, no effect in the official 4E rules does instant kills no matter how small. Well, if you and your players like it then go ahead.
#6 cognis Dec 09, 2008 17:39:45	Thnx for the info. As I said, it's only a draft table based on an old 2E table. I also don't like instant kills, but hey, players love them, even though it can go against them.
#7 Stuntman Dec 10, 2008 0:11:44	63 – 64 Arm muscle hit; -2 to hit until short rest taken 65 – 66 Arm muscle hit; -2 to hit until extended rest taken 67 – 68 Arm muscle hit; -4 to hit until short rest taken 69 – 70 Arm muscle hit; -4 to hit until extended rest taken One other comment. Penalties add together, so a few of these and the creature might not be able to hit anything for the rest of the day. When it happens to monsters, they are not as severe because monsters tend to die by the end of the encounter. When a PC gets too many of these penalties, he's practically useless for a potentially significant period of time. You may want to keep these penalties low (-1 and maybe -2). Alternatively, you may want to make a particular penalty not stack with any other penalties.
#8 cognis Dec 10, 2008 4:43:46	I think I'll change -2 to -1 and -4 to -2 and change the durations so it will be "until end of the encounter" and "until short rest taken". Furthermore I'll change 1/2 movement penalties to slowed "until end of the encounter" and to "until short rest taken" and I'll change duration of the immobilized condition to "until end of the encounter" and to "until short rest taken". Thanx for the info, does anybody have any suggestions what to add to the table, I thought about disarming and such.
#9 cognis Dec 10, 2008 4:50:29	83 – 84 Maximize all damage (Sneak attack, Quarry, extra weapon damage...) This is almost exactly the same as a critical hit. You could just call this a critical hit instead. It isn't like a normal critical. Lets say you're a rogue nand you have a +3 dagger, you score a critical and deal Sneak attack damage. Normal critical would be 4 (dagger) + 3 (enchantment) + 3d6 (critical bonus) + 3d6 (enchantment) which would put the damage to anywhere form 13 to 43, but if you roll 83-84 on the chart you get 43 damage. That's what differentiates it from the normal critical strike.
#10 demiteddybear Dec 10, 2008 6:11:40	It isn't like a normal critical. Lets say you're a rogue nand you have a +3 dagger, you score a critical and deal Sneak attack damage. Normal critical would be 4 (dagger) + 3 (enchantment) + 3d6 (critical bonus) + 3d6 (enchantment) which would put the damage to anywhere form 13 to 43, but if you roll 83-84 on the chart you get 43 damage. That's what differentiates it from the normal critical strike. Actually that is a critical hit where you deal maximum damage. Thats what a critical hit is all about
#11 cognis Dec 10, 2008 6:32:00	Yeah, but the critical hit deals maximum damage + other extra damage dice (+3d6 from a +3 daggre) which are not maximized. That's the difference.
#12 Stuntman Dec 10, 2008 16:20:14	Yeah, but the critical hit deals maximum damage + other extra damage dice (+3d6 from a +3 daggre) which are not maximized. That's the difference. I understand that the result on your chart is not the same as a critical hit. However, since it is similar, I would recommend just calling it a critical hit. The reason is that everyone knows what you roll and what you max on a critical hit. If you make it different, you may confuse people and slow things down a bit. Since you have so many different effects on your chart, anything that simplifies what the result is would be that is consistent with an existing rule would be beneficial. My reason for suggesting calling this a critical hit instead of maximise damage is for the same reason I suggested using the slowed condition instead of 1/2 x speed.