Critical Tables

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

thundertrax

Jun 11, 2011 17:07:16
So I am aware that this is a touchy subject for some people but if you think critical hit and fumble tables are bad please don't bother explaining it to me. I personally like them and my question is simply do these seem to be balanced? I tried to make it matter without instadeath or permanent damage being a focus i think i could roll with these. Please note that as a DM i can always choose to ignore a table if something would not fit or would be too disasterous in a situation.


Critical Hit Table


1-20 Target drops one item it is holding


21-40 Target is knocked prone


40-60 Target is slowed until the end of your nest turn


61-70 Target is weakened until the end of your next turn


71-75 Target is stunned until the end of your next turn


76-80 Target is dazed until the end of your next turn


81-85 Target is immobilized from surprise until the end of your next      turn.


86-90 Target takes 3+1/2 level ongoing damage from bleeding


91-94 Target takes -2 to all attack rolls Arm sliced


95-98 Target takes -2 to ac Armor sliced


99 Loss of limb (Circumstantial)


100 2X damage


 


Critical Fumble Table


1-20 -2 to AC grant combat advantage


21-40 Roll Strength or drop weapon


41-60 Reflex or fall prone


61-70 Slowed until end of next round (twisted ankle etc)


71-80 Weakened until end of next round (overextended yourself)


81-90 Stunned until end of next round (caught off guard)


91-95 strained attack -2 attacks until end of next round.


96-98 normal damage against self or ally (Circumstantial)


99-100 Recovered, Roll damage on target as if you hit

#2

alitain

Jun 11, 2011 20:01:55
Wow, you are WAY nicer with your crit chart than we are.  But then I find ours just as fun.  Ours is basically;
0-70- Normal crit damage
71-80- Broken bone(then we roll a d6 or whatever to determine which bone)
81-90- Loss of Limb(again, roll to determine which one)
91-95- Lose an eye(resulting in -2 to attacks for the encounter
96-99- Internal Bleeding(take blooded value in damage in place of the attack's crit damage)
100- Insta-kill(only used against enemies, not players)(Also no one has ever rolled it anyway)

So yeah, yours is WAY nicer but I love ours.  But suggestions on the Crit chart.  One, stunned is worse than dazed yet you have dazed after, I'd switch them.  Also, immobilized isn't nearly as bad as dazed or stunned, so should be moved up.  Pretty much you should have it like this;
Drop item
Knocked prone
Slowed
Immobilized
Weakened
Dazed
Stunned

As for the rest...well first you need to clarify how long the ongoing, and penalties to attack/AC last.  Ongoing should be save ends.  As for the penalties, I'm taking a guess that they're for the encounter.  That could suck especially when player can barely hit the enemy already(I've encountered some).  But if you're only having the penalties be till the end of their next turn, or a save ends, then I don't consider them worse that say, being stunned and unable to do anything for a round.  Because with the penalty you can still function, or the penalty to AC may have you keeping away.  So if that's the case I'd move them up.

Not sure what you mean by (circumstantial) though on either table.  On the crit fumble...I don't know.  We only play a roll of "1" as auto missed, except for one player who has a chance of his character losing his katanas.  But that's because it was a thing of his character's in 3.5 and we decided to keep it because of circumstances.  I guess they're alright, though I don't know about the 99-100 getting a hit.  To me that just...I mean I know it's a 2% chance so highly unlikely, but still rewarding the character for already failing to hit, by letting them hit just seems...counter to the whole point of the crit fumble.  Oh and you need to set a limit on the -2 to AC, grant CA.  Again, otherwise this means if they got the 1-20 they will continue to have a -2 to AC, and grant CA for the rest of the encounter, which is way too much.  While I feel that a crit fumble, at most should just be a 50/50 chance of losing your weapon/implement, or just keeping it as an auto-fail on the roll, but what you got I don't think is really that bad.                   
#3

thundertrax

Jun 11, 2011 20:49:12
I am going to nix the -2 On the critical fumble table as being repetitive. also all effects end on your next turn exept the ongioing damage on the critical hit table which is save ends. I like the 2% surprise you actually hit on a critical fumble and honestly in about 10 years of gaming I have seen it happen twice. Both times it caused a story the players LOVE and for that reason Iy Circumstantial in the description I mean that the DM should choose, who gets hit with the missed attack and what limb is severed. I like the DM to control what happens and as always this is a guide.
#4

alitain

Jun 11, 2011 21:46:58
Gotcha on the (Circumstantial) thing.  Well like I said, what you got seems fine enough for what it is.  I'm definitely a fan of crit charts at least, they make crits more entertaining than just doing more damage.
#5

thundertrax

Jun 11, 2011 22:32:24
One last added note, i realize that the status effects are not necesarily in order by severity. That's mainly because I think it's fun to be unpredictable and it throws my players off which maybe me smile.
#6

Cohen95

Jun 12, 2011 1:49:18

Caveat: I hate critical tables. I think they add more work than fun, and statistically always screw over the players more than they add fun to the game.


That being said, I'm going to start with the Miss Table.


First, I'd take all the Stuns out of the tables. Your blast/burst casters are going to hate you for those. Stun is the most powerful status effect in the game (behind "dead"), and any players who are on the fence about crit tables are going to fall off when they whiff on a daily and get stunned for their trouble.


Also, unless you're specifically looking for a use for your d10/%, I'd look at tightening the list down to a d20 roll, maybe a d30 if you have one (because then it becomes more omnious, much like percentiles).


"Reflex or fall prone" doesn't make any sense to me at all. A Reflex save? If this is 4th edition, that doesn't work at all. A simple "save vs." roll will do fine, but again, that's even more rolling. Why not just knock the character prone? Also, if it is a "save vs. prone" does the dwarf get to roll twice, per their racial ability? This is becoming complicated, just knock the character prone.


"Roll Strength or Drop weapon" doesn't make any sense either. Rolls are X vs. Y. Just add a new status effect "Disarmed" whereby they do not gain the benefit of their weapon/implement until they spend a minor action to re-equip it.


Grant Combat Advantage, Slowed, Weakened, and "Strained" I all like. You're using the tools within the system to confer simple, tangible, and defined conditions.


Now, for the Hit Table. Everything I said before re: Status effects still applies. I don't like the Stun, but using Slowed, Weakened, Ongoing, "Strained" (although you call it something else, which I wouldn't), and Prone all work well here. Daze I'm on the fence about, I'd make it one of the bigger numbers, because, again, it can be pretty powerful. I would also consider changing those to "Start of your next turn" as that still effects the enemy for one entire round, effectively.


The "1-20" effect will definitely hurt players more than monsters, especially once you start working with monsters that aren't humanoid, because they aren't holding anything. That dragon isn't going to care if he has to "drop" something. What's he going to drop, anyway, a tooth?


Loss of limb can be a really big deal, and will usually hurt characters more than monsters, and melee characters more than Implement wielders who can simply pick their implement up in their other hand (or pull out another one, or what-have-you).


My biggest concern with the Crit Hit Table is how you work with the existing Crit rules. I assume max damage goes away, which kind of sucks, but what about Magic Item Crit bonuses? Do those go away as well, or do they get tacked on? If they get tacked on, are they also doubled on a 100?


Also, the Crit Hit penalties to AC/attack, are they for a specified time period, or semi-permanent? Permanently taking a -2 to all attacks effectively means your character just lost a level, at best, and -2 AC will make your Defenders mark abilities harder to use, as they'll just attack the defender, turning him into just a plain old tank/meat shield.


If you have a d30, I'd use that. Simplify the lists down to only one list, that effects the attacker on a Crit Miss and the target on a Crit Hit. Drop the Stuns, and keep most of the effects from the Crit Miss table.


Also, while I get your enjoyment of randomness in the table's progression, trying to organize the effects from least to most impeding is more in the spirit of the game. You always want low rolls against you, and high rolls agains the enemies, and while the added confusing may be fun for you, as the DM, it can takes some of the visceral pleasure away from your players if they don't automatically know that a 27 is almost as good as 30 (or whichever diceroll you end up using). I imagine I'd rather enjoy seeing a player wipe is brow in relief upon seeing a 5 as much as I'd enjoy the look of dread when he sees a number closer to the top of the chart.

#7

ecla

Jun 15, 2011 22:23:41
I personally like them and my question is simply do these seem to be balanced?

My comments in red.  I love crit charts too   I assume the player can choose to inflict max damage OR roll on the chart?  If both, then that starts to push the limits of balance.

  

Critical Hit Table


1-20 Target drops one item it is holding  Just fine; if a monster is not holding anything you could bump this up to '21'-40' instead


21-40 Target is knocked prone  Just fine


40-60 Target is slowed until the end of your nest turn  Just fine


61-70 Target is weakened until the end of your next turn  Just fine


71-75 Target is stunned until the end of your next turn  It seems you are building on a pyramid of conditions, so I'd replace this one with Dazed and the next one with Stunned


76-80 Target is dazed until the end of your next turn  Since being stunned is really bad I'd lower the chance of this, or at least make it less of a chance than Dazed


81-85 Target is immobilized from surprise until the end of your next turn.  Just fine


86-90 Target takes 3+1/2 level ongoing damage from bleeding  Just fine


91-94 Target takes -2 to all attack rolls Arm sliced  Is this a save ends effect or until end of next turn condition?  Otherwise too powerful


95-98 Target takes -2 to ac Armor sliced  As above


99 Loss of limb (Circumstantial)  There are no rules for this so you'd have to add a lot of houserules here, maybe instead make this a 'deep wound' that causes the player to lose a certain number of healing surges until an extended rest (or two)


100 2X damage  So a crit does max damage already, is this 2x max?  Might never come up but if it did, wow!  hehe



Other things you can add to the crit chart:  target grants Combat Advantage, target is Blinded, target is knocked Unconscious (this can be a save ends)  



#8

Kurmudgeon

Jun 28, 2011 1:27:57
I played in a game that critical hits table, only the roll to determine the effect was based on the weapon/implement damage dice (plus those for high crit weapons).

Might change 'Loss of Limb' to something like 'deep wound' or similar. Indicating a severe wound that causes massive bleeding, give out a massive amount of ongoing damage, perhaps equal to extra damage from weapons bonus crit damage.

I would also change '2X damage' to just DEAD, end of story. Let the PC revel in their sheer AWESOMENESS!
#9

kev777

Jun 28, 2011 14:07:26
I'm currently converting the 2e options critical hit system to 4e.    

Here is how I've done bleeding.

Minor Bleeding:
Max Healing Surges Lost: None
Healing Surges Lost: None
Special Effects: Ongoing 2 damage (save ends).
Natural Healing: bleeding must be stopped
Magical Healing: 5 HP of healing stops.
Heal Skill: Untrained, Easy DC, stops

Major Bleeding:
Max Healing Surges Lost: None
Healing Surges Lost: None
Special Effects: Ongoing 5 damage until bleeding stopped.
Natural Healing: bleeding must be stopped
Magical Healing: 5 HP of healing reduces to Minor, 10 HP of healing stops.
Heal Skill: Moderate DC, Reduces bleeding to Minor.

Severe Bleeding:
Max Healing Surges Lost: None:
Healing Surges Lost: 1 per round.
Special Effects: Ongoing 5 damage and 1 healing surge lost until bleeding stopped.
Natural Healing: bleeding must be stopped
Magical Healing: 5 HP of healing reduces to Major, 10 HP of Healing reduces to Minor, 20 HP of Healing stops.
Heal Skill: Hard DC, Reduces bleeding to Major.


As for the other conditions like broken, I have decided that Max Healing surge totals will be reduced over a percentage of max HP totals.   
For example, here is how the broken wound category works. 

Broken
Max Healing Surges Lost: 1 (arms), 2 (ribs / legs), 3(head and others)
Special Effects: Incurs a penalty as per hit location chart until cured
Natural Healing: 1d20 + 10 days of rest.
Magical Healing: Cured if healing magic is capable of restoring 20 hp, but no hit points are restored. Lesser magical healing has the same effect as using the heal skill.
Heal Skill: Moderate DC, Reduces natural healing rate by 2 days and restores 1 lost max healing surge.


The hit location charts will take a while, but so far they seem to translate very well to 4e conditions and modifiers.