Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 paulstrait May 11, 2010 4:59:38	I am working on a campaign in the planning phase that is going to be about the Crusades.  My current campaign has a little less than a year of real life time left, so I've got several months before this campaign needs to be ready.  I want it to be historical -- obviously all d&d characters are larger than life, but I only want martial characters in this campaign, I think.  I thought about allowing divine characters, but they are all just way too over the top for a historical campaign.  I think I will allow people to multiclass into a divine class, but that's it.  Or can I allow Paladin?  What do you all think?  I'm not sure about bard -- if I could limit all the explicitly magical stuff, I suppose it would fit.  What should I do about race?  Obviously its only humans... but should I make some sub-races like French, English, Greek, Turkish, Arab, etc.?  Does it matter what level I start it at?  Would level 1 make sense for knights that are already in the holy land right after the crusaders took Jerusalem the first time at the turn of the 12th century?  Alternatively, I could start it at 11, and that way everyone could take an appropriate paragon path (e.g., "Knights Templar," "Knights Hospitallar," etc.).  Would that make more sense?  Do people have any different opinions about, in general, what level a campaign should start at?  (I am usually partial to 1, but I sort of think it is situational). What should I be thinking about as my mainstay of NPC opponents?  In my (FR) campaign now, I try to rarely reuse monsters from previously battles, or at least to be as varied as possible.  I know I won't be able to do that with this campaign, but how should I think about varying the opponents? Any and all comments, questions, suggestions, etc. welcome! Anything else rules wise that I need to be thinking about?  (Either actual rules that might need to be changed, or potential rules that might need to be homebrewed).
#2 pluisjen May 11, 2010 5:25:19	You will be stripping out so much that (and this is not meant in a bad way) you would probably do better to find an RPG that actually aims to simulate the crusades/medieval ages because you'll be houseruling until kingdom come for no reason.
#3 paulstrait May 11, 2010 5:34:54	What kinds of things do you foresee me having to houserule?  I could always run it in a different system like 3.5/Pathfinder, if the problem is 4E...  But I'd prefer not to, because I really enjoy playing 4E.
#4 pluisjen May 11, 2010 5:51:58	The issue is not 4e, it's D&D as a whole. D&D features magical classes (you'll lose about 80% of the available classes), magical races (you'll lose all save one, Human), magical items (you'll lose about 98% if you reflavor a plain enhancement bonus to be a masterwork weapon/armor), monsters (there aren't even stats for animals and you might be able to reflavor a few, but most monsters simply don't convert well) In addition it is very non-gritty which means your Crusaders will be able to take large numbers of hits without ever having a permanent wound, they'll be able to sleep off any damage they take, most Human monsters cap out at 5th level or so, and even the Fighter quickly becomes so much larger then life it's hard to say he's not magical. Also the game has no economic system, no mundane items, no system of lords and lands, no lore at all for what you are trying to do, no rules for leading armies, only a very few skills of which a few will even lose 90% of their functionality (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature, having nothing to identify won't be able to do much) It will be really difficult to capture the feel of the crusades in any system of D&D because they weren't designed for it... You can always try, but my fear is that it will end up feeling like a very gimped heroic fantasy game instead of a gritty medieval world.
#5 kitterkat May 11, 2010 12:02:54	The issue is not 4e, it's D&D as a whole. D&D features magical classes (you'll lose about 80% of the available classes), magical races (you'll lose all save one, Human), magical items (you'll lose about 98% if you reflavor a plain enhancement bonus to be a masterwork weapon/armor), monsters (there aren't even stats for animals and you might be able to reflavor a few, but most monsters simply don't convert well). Song of Ice and Fire Roleplay would be ideal for this, considering most Crusaders were landed nobles, and the system has an excellent House mechanic. Very little magic, and so it's easy to ignore. Just take the mechanics out of the original setting and you're good to go.
#6 monstro May 11, 2010 17:02:03	I don't know how strong you are into this but I think, literature-wise, D and D is built for the great works about the crusades.  Tasso's Jerusalem Delivered or Ariosto's Orlando Furioso (or even Song of Roland) would work very well with D and D (even with wizards and warlocks and all that).  Moreover, having read a few of the accounts from the crusaders themselves, I think it would be a pity to take away magic.  They thought they were in the land described in Genesis and talked of passing near the ruins of Sodom and Gemorrah, or seeing the ruins of Noah's Ark.  Yes, with history, we know that there weren't any magical things in effect, but they didn't, and the great works of literature that talk about the crusades do include Dragons, magic weapons, wizards, witches, evil races, etc..  It's closer to Baron Munchaussen than John Riley-Smith (who you should read anyways). Start the campaign in Antioch.  Make sure Tancred is the jerk that he really was (he kidnapped Jewish citizens and sold them back to their families).
#7 Grimbus May 12, 2010 17:32:54	As for levels, more "followers" went on crusades than Knight - so you could start at any level and with any class - lots of people went on the crusades to try their luck, so rogues, rangers, bards, fighters and clerics would fit.  Since the justification of the Crusade was religious, it would be wise to allow divine characters such as clerics and paladins - and I can't see why the spells cast could not be described as miracles or something - you could keep divine magic in the game if you wanted. As for starting level - part of the adventure is actually getting to the Holy Lands - so if your adventurers start in England or Ireland they have quite a few thousands of miles to travel to get to the holy land - they will have to deal with bandits, thieves, clerics and nobles. They could start recruiting/rounding up men for their Lord and go from there. They could start as lowly foot soldiers and be level 6 or 7 by the time they get to The Holy Lands if you wanted.  Enemies would be varied - the Crusaders would rival and fight each other over land, glory and treasure as much as the Muslims. So a French Noble would be an ally in the fight for Acre, but a dangerous enemy after the seige  because he wants the city for himself. Each noble probably has a connection with a thieves guild or bunch of rogues to arrange thefts and "accidents" for those whom get in the way. Whilst the top enemies would remain the same, their tactics would vary which would give the players something different to do. In one scenario the players could be preparing to fight an open battle, in another they could be hunting down assassins in a city before they get the chance to strike.
#8 sfurtwangler May 13, 2010 7:46:16	I also agree that D&D will be difficult to transition for a game meant to be "realistic" and "historical", but I think it can be done, and I know of at least one big reason why you may want to. In my gaming group, I ran into a similar situation. I wanted to make a campaign based (loosely) on the real world, BUT the only game my players all knew the rules to was D&D, and that was the game they were interested in playing. Although the game might work out better if you picked a system that matched the setting, if your players aren't just as interested in the setting, they might be a lot happier with the game they know. Of course, if they want D&D, and don't care about history, they might be sad to hear that a good chunk of their options have been removed. Here's a couple of ideas to help: 1) Consider limiting the game to lower levels. Starting at level 1 is fine, even for experienced knights, if they'll only go as high as 10. This would similarly prevent a lot of the undeniably magical stuff that starts to pop up in paragon and epic teir, and will keep the low-level "normal" monsters viable throughout the campaign. Of course, you're in for a fairly short campaign, this way, unless you also reduce the experience you hand out... and for some gaming groups, that will reduce their sense fo achievement and reward. 2) Consider using an "alternate history" rather than the actual one. How would the crusades have played out differently, if there were holy men (on both sides) who could ACTUALLY call upon the power of their respective dieties? What about other occult organizations, who have wizards and warlocks among their ranks, and an interest in the city as well? What if monsters roamed the area surrounding the holy city? This might not be the game that you had planned, but it might be a lto more interesting that what REALLY happened - and it would open up a lot more of the D&D material for use (both by you, and by your players). 3) Consider working with your players to allow a few one-time exceptions from the rules you intend to otherwise enforce about your world. Perhaps someone with their heart set on playing a divine character could be a very important and unique person - in that they can actually call upon miracles like a saint or something. Maybe someone who wants to play a goliath could... and he's really just am impossibly huge person (like Goliath, himself).  A lot of obviously out-there stuff (like dragonborn, warforged, etc) are probably just right-out, but having more than one option is always a good idea. Otherwise you'll probably end up with a party of human warlords (and maybe some paladins, if you allow them).
#9 DerelictDroid May 15, 2010 22:40:13	As some have hinted above, I think you're overestimating the reasoning ability of the 11th-12th century human.  At the risk of offending some here, in this day and age, I'll just say that these knights actually believed in people being raised from the dead, a plague is a magical curse (not a medical and sanitation issue), and the discovery of a dinosaur bone was proof of dragons. Also, keep in mind that 4e has, more than any other edition, codified the disassociation of h.p. to health. H.P. is really an amalgam of health, morale, fatigue, determination. Clerics, Warlords, etc aren't just healing health...it's much more than that. In this regard, I think Divine magic would be perfectly fitting as long as its couched in an historical context. Of course, you could choose to exclude certain divine classes or even powers on a case by case basis. Magical items are another sticking point, but not insurmountable. As someone mentioned above, weapons and armor could be explained as being of higher quality rather than magical.  And those with blatantly magical properties would be disallowed (teleportation, etc). But other magical properties might be easily explained through craftmanship or even Legend.  On this last point, I direct you to reference any work by Jung on Alchemy (Jung and the Alchemical Imagination, for one). Essentially the book describes how objects gain 'magial' significance through human projection and association. Of course in our modern age we know psychology is at work...but in the Middle Ages (or earlier) Excalibur becomes magical through decades of human projection and association -- seen on the battlefield, in posession of the King, it strikes fear in the hearts of enemies. Is that magical? Today, we say no. Back then, it certainly looks like magic.
#10 paulstrait May 15, 2010 23:13:58	Thanks for all the help.  I think I'm going to allow characters to hybrid paladin-fighter, and I'll allow characters to multiclass cleric, avenger, and invoker.  I'm also going to allow hybrid bards, with the proviso that he doesn't really have arcane power, but rather is just an inspiring and talented talker and musician.  I'm also going to allow barbarians, but similarly re-skinned, flavor wise, as a certain kind of western warrior.   Do I need to make a controller option available?  I don't know how critical a controller is to party composition.  If so, I was thinking some kind of western monk mystic class that I could homebrew up.  It would be easier if I didn't have to do this, of course. I thought about maybe running pathfinder... and maybe I will, but I kind of just want to stick with 4E because I enjoy it so much.  There aren't really going to be magical items (except relics/artifacts), so I'm going to use the inherent bonuses in the dmg.  I may go with the 3.5/pathfinder list of arms/equipment. It isn't so much that I want gritty realism, I just want things to match the setting.  It is still going to be a fantastic setting, just one that is somewhat historical -- only humans, mostly martial classes, two main religions, etc. Of course the characters are medieval in mindset, so they will believe in things like divine healing, raising the dead, dragons, etc... but those things will still be largely rare.    I was thinking of creating different races based on where the different pcs are from -- french, german, etc.  What do you guys think?  If I do that, what should the unique powers be, if any? I'm still not sure if this campaign will start at level 1 or 11... I will probably just let my players vote.  The campaign will only last between 5 and 10 levels total.
#11 DerelictDroid May 15, 2010 23:45:26	I'm really intrigued with what you're doing -- do keep us informed as to how it goes. As for creating sub-racial abilities for each nationality, these could be as little as Background benefits with bumps to skills. I don't know that the nationalities differ enough to allow for wholesale benefits and penalties mimicing racial differences. Perhaps borrowing from Medievel Total War II, the English might have a bonus to archery, the French have some sort of bonus to Cavelry, etc. How that translates to 4e though, not sure. As for Controller, certain fighter builds like the pole-arm specialist have some decent  controller ability.  And while controllers are nice, I'm not sure they're essential (like a Leader). As for starting levels, I tend to believe most inhabitants of 4e are minion calibre. If one is 1st level, you're already highly skilled.  My sense is that your rank and file knight in the crusades is 1st level. The other militia that by and large filled out the ranks of the crusades would be minions.
#12 Grimbus May 16, 2010 9:56:00	For a five level camaign you seem to be creating a lot of work for yourself. I'd ask the PCs what kind of characters they want to play and start there. At least then, you know which parts of the rules need the most attention. There's no point in creating an extremely detailed controller PC class if none of the players want to play one. You could change some of the class characteristics rather than go to the trouble of creating new races. For example English fighters get the Elven Bow proficieny with Longbows, whereas French characters might get additional specialisms in crossbows or bonuses when fighting on horseback. Each nation favoured different types of warfare and trained their citizens accordingly so you could use that to give the different nations a racial tweak.   Having just seen the new Robin Hood movie, coming back from the crusade can be just as much an adventure as getting there. You could start the characters somewhere in Europe and then finish when they return home - which could then lead to other adventures.
#13 paulstrait May 16, 2010 10:05:37	Having just seen the new Robin Hood movie, coming back from the crusade can be just as much an adventure as getting there. You could start the characters somewhere in Europe and then finish when they return home - which could then lead to other adventures.    This is really intriguing... what kinds of adventures are you thinking could be entailed in the travel to and from?  I was going to just start in Jerusalem but I really think this idea has potential.
#14 Grimbus May 16, 2010 15:57:25	Well, to start with - certainly the King of England used the crusades as an excuse to distract the nobles from waging civil war upon him. So your first adventure or two might start out at home - the King asks the players to ride around an English county and summon the men and money he needs to fight his crusade - so the players have to play recruiting sargeant and tax collectors. This will involve tact, diplomacy and brute force. In addition, the players may also have to arrest a Baron who is not going on the crusade, but will wreak havoc once the King has left the country, so the players will have to stop the Baron and deliver him to the Tower of London for the safety of the realm. Perhaps the players earn their knighthoods doing services for the King and are then ordered to go on the crusade? To secure funds the players may be asked to perform missions. Venice would lend money, but might require guarantees or services for the cash and also allow you to run a city adventure in Venice. A rich merchant might demand a bride or the head of a rival before parting with funds. Prisoners were also ransomed for large sums of money - so the players may be tasked with finding 20,000gps to ransom a general or something. The Byzantine Empire was crumbling at the time and many of the Western Europeans saw their chance and occupied large chunks of the Empire and claimed it for themselves in payment for the crusade. In fact the Venetians conquered and sacked Constantinople at this time - the treasures they stole are to this day on public display in Venice - so the players could also get involved in this. For exampe the Byzantines protected the harbour with a heavy chain stretched over the Bosphorus to stop ships sailing in - maybe the players could be tasked to take over the tower which is on an Island in the Bosphorus which contolled the chain.  (the tower is still there today) The crusaders also behaved very badly - so players might act as some kind of law enforcement or avengers. For example a French Prince gets drunk and kills a few locals he shouldn't have. This could involve negotiation or all out war as the Prince hides behind the gates of his fortress to escape justice. On the way back, the crusaders wer mainly broke and not on the best of terms, so the players might need to steal relics from other crusaders to secure them for the King and also deal with peasant uprisings against the taxes levied by unsympathetic nobles to pay for the war.