Version 1.10 PDF available here.
Long story short, I've been running a game for the past year heavily entrenched around the concept of an undead invasion. With the changes to 4th edition regarding controlled undead (that is, you can't), the entire premise completely fell apart. I *require* a class capable of controlling and bolstering undead, not just killing them. I want to move forward and adopt 4th edition, but I can't just say the bad guys had a ritual that does it because I strongly believe that the PCs should have similar access to abilities that the NPCs have (for the most part).
Thus, I created the Summoner class. Why not Necromancer? Because, well, I found it was kind of frustrating to limit them to purely undead. I just couldn't come up with enough powers, and since there was a lack of any other summoning class, I just smooshed them together.
Anyway, I'm looking for playtesters and commentators. Feedback and all that. Please feel free to download the pdf I've prepared and let me know what you think.
Please be constructive in your feedback. Comments like "such and such power sucks" and "so and so power is overpowered" will be ignored. If you can't back up your comments with "why", then I'll wait to see it in action in my own games.
The class only goes up to level 20, not 30, because I don't plan on running my campaign further than that, and quite frankly, making a whole damn class and still trying to be unique is incredibly difficult, even if it's only 20 levels.
Thanks in advance,
Scott
if you are sleeping or unconscious, you can sustain a free action?
So far as I know, you can't, so you'd need to resummon. I like your suggestion though, so I'll see how that works out.
at paragon level, allow the familiar to extend your current stance around it in burst 2.
Me like! :D
defend the chosen needs to be rewritten. i get what the intent is, but it's messy
For the 20th time... XD I find the mechanic is hard to put into words that aren't on some level confusing.
"AHHHHHHHHHHHHH a snake!"
shift in a direction you choose and take a little damage as an example of a power that is not for summond onlys
Well, the lack of non-summon powers is somewhat intentional. Being allowed to add monsters is super powerful, so I wanted them to be pretty limited without them.
i know you've done this to alot of powers already... but i would say collect them all up, and have a look through again. as they say in writing and film production: kill your darlings. (if you have to)
I look them over like, every day. :D Just trying to see if I can break them, or if I'm constantly skipping some over because they're boring.
corrupt addiction: mediocre name, great power, can be used as buff or attack
i'd call it corrupt temptation.
and keep the flavour text to what it was originally "absolute power, corrupts absolutly" the saying is classic.
I figured I would have to defend that flavour text at some point, and this is the second time. ^_^ I worded it that way on purpose. It's basically a semantics thing between the words absolute and ultimate. Plus, I think it'll make people pay attention if the phrase stands out because it's slightly "off". :P
the "read the contract power":
love the name, love the power mechanics, not sure what they have to do with eachother unless you are specifically targeting a summoned creature
Imagine someone reading a contract they've just signed, and then finding some REALLY bad news in the fine print, then stumbling around dazed and confused. The effects are supposed emulate that.
fury of the fallen . . . make is psychic damage, or something.
I looked this over again, and realized it's halfway between two powers I was working on. I'll have to fix it.
id plague
The version of the spell I have now is extremely nerfed compared to what it used to be. The original was much too powerful, but matched the name better.
early grave:
specify that the opponent is immobilzed while in the 'grave like chamber'
if they are not supposed to be, then expect anyone hit by that power to want to know how much room is in the grave? what are the walls made out of? what is the stregth DC to break free from the grave, what kind of actions can be taken in the grave? etc etc.
Excellent points. I'll work on it.
shadow reaper:
incl. sickles as well . . . or make the sickle into a kind of pactblade maybe?
Interesting. I'll see what I come up with. I did consider designing a special equipment for them, and probably still will, but decided to leave it until I was 100% satisfied with the class otherwise.
1. DC to summoner Monster 25 at heroic
-5 for 20 Int, -5 for trained -3 for skill focus -2 for racial
10 or better (50%)
-5 for pact choice.
5 or better (75%)
My suggestion:
DC 15+Level+Charisma Modifer of monster.
This makes it where undead summoners tend to have an easier time summoning their summons, but there is more power in Devil/Demon summons. It also means that someone very tricked out has a decent shot at any of the monsters, but this chance slowly derides as they gain levels (meaning they go for weaker summons as the power of the monsters in question grow).
2. You have defend the chosen listed for contractual Summoner, yet Defend the Chosen is grouped with other 'ways to command your summons' Is this a typo or are they part of the at wills?
3. Elicit Assistance is a Utility power not an at will, you can make it a level 2 utility you can use at will, I don't think it would hurt to do that, but as it is, Diplomacy isn't an attribute and insight isn't a defense.
4. Living Sacrfice has just become the best choice for a halfelf charismatic rogue to pick as their at will from another class (or Half Elf paladin for that matter), up it to 2[w] and put it in encounter (as a suggestion), move rampage down to an at will. (Its basically equal to one of the Warlords At
Will's).
5. Astral Current
I'm not sure Slide is strictly better than Shift.
6. Note on Summon Minon they gain a bonus to attack equal to half your level, or summon minion becomes useless. (+6 to AC is 15 off AC by level 6, having two on the field, means a grand total of 43.75% of 1 hit, and 6.25% of 2 hits, level 7 36.00% of 1 hit, and 4% of 2 hits, level 8 27.75%, 2.25% of two hits (combined of 30% chance of hitting), level 9 19% of one hit, 1% chance of two hits (20% combined) level 10, 9.75% of one hit, .25% of two (10% combined)
Level 10-16 (as you have reached maximum low result)
14.26% of 1 hit, .2375% of 2 hits, .0125% of 3 hits (math might be off a bit on the 2 hits)
That's it for now XD
This makes it where undead summoners tend to have an easier time summoning their summons, but there is more power in Devil/Demon summons.
In the long run, undead are powerful but mindless, and devils are more reliable. The reason I did it that way is basically that soul barter works mostly with devils, and also gets extra benefits from int. With Religion being an int based skill it makes it easier to double up your stat. I gave the undead a power boost in exchange.
2. You have defend the chosen listed for contractual Summoner . . .
That's a whoops. I moved the at-wills and 1st levels around after some playtesting.
3. Elicit Assistance is a Utility power not an at will, you can make it a level 2 utility you can use at will, I don't think it would hurt to do that, but as it is, Diplomacy isn't an attribute and insight isn't a defense.
I picked two non-combat things because it's a non-combat effect. I'm aware it's rather unconventional, but skill versus skill was a normal thing in the previous edition, which I liked. If it was moved to level 2 I think it would get skipped over a lot in favour of other powers. I could possibly remove the power and make it a general class feature, which would free up some space for another more combat oriented at-will power.
4. Living Sacrfice has just become the best choice for a halfelf charismatic rogue
This is true, but they lose their paragon class to do it. That to me seems like a fair trade-off at paragon levels. I'll have to crunch some numbers on the effects to be certain.
6. Note on Summon Minon they gain a bonus to attack equal to half your level, or summon minion becomes useless.
This is also true, as you have shown. They definitely need a boost for higher levels. Originally I increased the number present for this reason. I'll see what I can work out to accommodate them at higher level.
You bring up excellent points! Thanks very much, and I'll look at what you've said a bit closer.
Thanks for the reply, Aluman!
Like I said I like summoners XD
I picked two non-combat things because it's a non-combat effect. I'm aware it's rather unconventional, but skill versus skill was a normal thing in the previous edition, which I liked. If it was moved to level 2 I think it would get skipped over a lot in favour of other powers. I could possibly remove the power and make it a general class feature, which would free up some space for another more combat oriented at-will power.
It might do better there, much better there to be honest.
This is true, but they lose their paragon class to do it. That to me seems like a fair trade-off at paragon levels. I'll have to crunch some numbers on the effects to be certain.
Actually Half Elves get to pick an off class at will as encounter ability. Even spending a feat though doesn't Force you to give up your Paragon Path, and that power will be tempting for Paladins and Warlocks with Pact Blades.
This is also true, as you have shown. They definitely need a boost for higher levels. Originally I increased the number present for this reason. I'll see what I can work out to accommodate them at higher level.
As I think about it, adding in INT and dropping number summoned to 1,2,3 at Heroic, Paragon, Epic might be enough to balance visa vie other striker style damages, I will set in tomorrow and do some longer projections on it
Actually Half Elves get to pick an off class at will as encounter ability.
I totally forgot about that. Not too bad as an encounter power unless you add in sneak attack. I'll cap it a different way instead of damage, to balance it off.
As I think about it, adding in INT and dropping number summoned to 1,2,3 at Heroic, Paragon, Epic might be enough to balance visa vie other striker style damages, I will set in tomorrow and do some longer projections on it
As will I. :D
Just one question:
Wouldn't it make more sense if the Contractual Summoner took Skill Focus (Arcana) rather than (Religion) [I believe immortals fall under Arcana... though I could be mistaken]
Has it been play-tested yet?
I think its a pretty good class, but when it comes to minions or stuff like that, maybe its the psion in me speaking, but I prefer Astral Construct. Feel free to offer suggestions on my thread about it.
As much as I love the concept of astral constructs, the minions need to be undead and immortals so that they gain the benefits of the covenant powers. =)
Wouldn't it make more sense if the Contractual Summoner took Skill Focus (Arcana) rather than (Religion) [I believe immortals fall under Arcana... though I could be mistaken]
Arcana is elemental, fey and shadow. I know Religion seems like an odd skill for them, but I specifically wanted two types of monsters with decent variety that used the same skill so that skill focus would benefit both summon types equally. The few aberrant summons are still wonky, though.
Has it been play-tested yet?
Only by me, so far as I know. I have one friend playing it in the game I'm running, and so far it's going well. In one weekend I noticed a few things that really needed to change in order to make them more viable (which are already included).
Thanks for the feeback!
Some powers (such as summon imp) are... hard to categorise...
What I mean is that the grey box indicates that it's a daily power, but the text names it as an encounter power...
I found a few of those when I put together a sample character (level 1) to get it on paper.
Also, I didn't realize just how many at-will powers there are until I copied them into a word document (that's how I make my character sheets, BTW).
Only by me, so far as I know. I have one friend playing it in the game I'm running, and so far it's going well. In one weekend I noticed a few things that really needed to change in order to make them more viable (which are already included).
Well, once I get a game up (most likely in Eberron) I'll add the class as a playable class (assuming you approve, of course).
I'll let you know how it goes!
Changing some of the basic assumptions of the class, it would make a perfect Divine Controller - filling that void for now. And making it less ... "dark" ;) would make it more generally usable. With more abstract phraseology, you still could make the evil sorcerer or you also could make the adorable Yuna from Final Fantasy X. ^_^
Well, once I get a game up (most likely in Eberron) I'll add the class as a playable class (assuming you approve, of course).
Of course I approve! That's why it's up here! :D
As for the errors, yeah, there are some. ^_^ It's because as I go through the document I sometimes move things and alter them to make them more appropriate, and small changes to the powers go uncorrected. I've found in the past that it's very hard to proof read your own work, because you know what it's *supposed* to say, so you don't read it as written. If it's not clear, look at what heading it's under (Level 1 Daily Spells, etc), not what the power says. They should all be in the right spot in the layout, if nothing else. XD
I actually have a drastically updated version in regards to the at-wills. It's much cleaner, and makes more sense, I think. I'll put it up once I tighten up some other things I noticed this last weekend of testing. Basically, you should only need to write down three at-wills now, since the functioning of the others is straightforward.
Change the reliable keyword to something else
I couldn't think of another word, plus, the power is still reliable in the PHB sense. I just added to its functioning because the font I have is a fair bit wider than the PHB font, and I can't fit as many keywords on the line. It sounds silly, I know, but it matters for some of them. :D
Questions about the bonus power, however.
They know additional powers, but can they use more powers per encounter than normal?
For example, Sam the Summoner picks Summon Imp and Frenzy (both daily powers) as his additional powers. He also has one daily power as per usual, which is Devil's Dance.
Now, can he use all three powers during a day?
One of them?
- Does he choose which one in advance or when he first uses one of them?
Another thing:
"Sustain None" for a familiar seems... redundant. How about removing that line and writing:
"Summon: Lose a healing surge, but do not regain hit points. Place a familiar (see Appendix) in the nearest unoccupied space adjacent to yourself. The familiar acts immediately. The familiar lasts until destroyed."
It seems more streamlined IMHO.
And a last thing, I've been wondering about:
"Shatter the Mind Orb: as a standard action you may shatter an orb used to summon a creature (if any), destroying it utterly. The unfortunate creature whose essence is bound to the device dies instantly. Summoners most often use this power as a last ditch effort to defeat summons that have gone out of control."
When summoning, does the summoner already have one of these, are they created when summoning the monster or are they entirely optional.
In other words, can my ability to kill any of the creatures I summon as a standard action be hindered in any way other than denying me my standard action?
I don't know about summoning minions though. It seems a little weak. In addition if you start summoning groups, it will really screw up the conservation of actions concept of the game. I think it might be better to summon a standard creature instead of a minion.
Nice work though.
Now, can he use all three powers during a day?
Theoretically, yes. Blowing three daily powers in one encounter is something I'm watching very closely in my playtesting, but the limit on it being one summon and one stance didn't alter balance too drastically for my mock up characters. The reason I put the rule in is to ensure that the summoner always has access to one summon and one stance.
Counter measures I'm considering if it proves too powerful are to limit it to encounter powers, choose a power (as you mentioned), 1 encounter/1 daily, or to say that you cannot have more than one daily/encounter and summon/stance per level.
I actually found that having access to multiple summons/stances from the encounter powers lists seemed to be more powerful, but that might just be me.
"Sustain None" for a familiar seems... redundant.
It is redundant. =) Was just to make it clear that a familiar isn't really a normal summon. It could be written several ways.
In other words, can my ability to kill any of the creatures I summon as a standard action be hindered in any way other than denying me my standard action?
Yes. If you summon a creature without using an orb as part of the power. For example, when you use the summon zombie power, it has the implement keyword. Pretend you have a +2 orb. Assuming you apply the +2 to hit and damage from the orb, that orb is now also tied to the creature. If you don't take the +2, it's not. Let's also pretend you fail your knowledge check. You have a choice. You can a) attempt to deal with it as a free roaming monster, or b) break your +2 orb, IF you tied the creature to the orb. This is why they have Make Whole as a ritual, and why it's not a bad idea to keep an orb or two kicking around.
I don't know about summoning minions though. It seems a little weak. In addition if you start summoning groups, it will really screw up the conservation of actions concept of the game.
There are many reasons tucked into the mechanics of the class for them to be minions. Just for starters, Living Sacrifice can be used on your own minion, granting you temporary hit points at the cost of a healing surge to acquire the minion. If you've got more than one minion, you can living sacrifice yourself and land a summon off of one of your own creatures, rather than a high defense opponent. Various other powers can also make use of your low HP friends, and any of the really good stances will just pop them. They're more of a utility ability, rather than an attack ability, but they'll do in a pinch, just like the familiar.
In order to deal with the intended actions limits I put in stances and sustains, thus ensuring that all creatures do the same thing, and if you've got more than one creature under you're control (unless they're minions), you're automatically losing two minor actions (or worse). Thus, the more creatures you have, the less you get to do, to the point that if you're using three minor actions in your turn, you can't get your creatures to switch targets once the current one dies because doing so requires that you activate the Assault command with a new target.
The one exception to this, that I also plan to watch very closely, is the Foul Following power, which summons 5 monsters with different powers. I worry very much that it will bog down the game.
Thanks for the feedback!
Theoretically, yes. Blowing three daily powers in one encounter is something I'm watching very closely in my playtesting, but the limit on it being one summon and one stance didn't alter balance too drastically for my mock up characters. The reason I put the rule in is to ensure that the summoner always has access to one summon and one stance.
Counter measures I'm considering if it proves too powerful are to limit it to encounter powers, choose a power (as you mentioned), 1 encounter/1 daily, or to say that you cannot have more than one daily/encounter and summon/stance per level.
I actually found that having access to multiple summons/stances from the encounter powers lists seemed to be more powerful, but that might just be me.
Well, how about dropping those bonus powers?
Really, you have the basic commands (which, personally, I'd roll into one power with a bunch of subsections, much like the Summon Minion power), which'll cover your basic needs and then you can either choose more powerful monsters or better stances.
Seems fair to me, anyway.
If it proves too weak, one can always start adding bonuses to summoned monsters.
Yes. If you summon a creature without using an orb as part of the power. For example, when you use the summon zombie power, it has the implement keyword. Pretend you have a +2 orb. Assuming you apply the +2 to hit and damage from the orb, that orb is now also tied to the creature. If you don't take the +2, it's not. Let's also pretend you fail your knowledge check. You have a choice. You can a) attempt to deal with it as a free roaming monster, or b) break your +2 orb, IF you tied the creature to the orb. This is why they have Make Whole as a ritual, and why it's not a bad idea to keep an orb or two kicking around.
Eep! That is nasty. Once I hit level 3, I'll have a dozen nonmagical Orbs lying around, just in case.
I find the class very interesting, but it may be a bit complicated, especially when you have a bunch of minions running around. Why not summon one standard or X number of minions to give the player a choice? Interesting use of stances to balance.
The theoretical limit on summons (numbers only), as I've determined it to be is as follows. This is assuming you have 0 action points and are level 20 and you make all the necessary checks and attack rolls.
(sa) standard action, (ma) move action, (mi) minor action
Round 1: Activate stance (sa/ma)
Round 2: Activate Firing Squad (sa) (4 summoned creatures)
Round 3: Activate Summon Host (sa), Sustain Firing Squad (ma) (8 summoned creatures)
Round 4: Activate Foul Following (sa), Sustain Firing Squad (ma), Sustain Host (mi) (13 summoned creatures)
Round 5: Sustain Foul Following (sa), Sustain Firing Squad (ma), Sustain Host (mi)
Round X: Sustain, Sustain, Sustain. At some point, your target will die, and you will have to use an action point to switch the target, or drop some of your summons. Unless you or a summon dies first. :P
Keeping in mind, every single creature in the above example is forced to attack the same target, which if it moves out of range, gains a huge advantage because the little pylon of control for all the summons can't chase them. The real threat in the group is the Foul Following, which as I mentioned above, I am very wary about as a power. I'll have to see what happens when my playtesting hits that level (currently at level 5).
I tried to keep it simpler by reducing the actions capability of multiple creature summons (save one, see above). :D The Rotten Harvest power they're immobilized, for example, that sort of thing. Thus far the biggest benefit that I've seen is the one I assumed when I first made the class, and that's bonus HP in the part. A single sacrificial zombie can take a lot of heat off the party in a pinch, even if he just blocks a doorway for one round.
Well, how about dropping those bonus powers?
I found that I was completely ignoring the other powers the class had access to in favour of summoning powers and stances on all of my mock characters. I tried to make the class' secondary powers slightly less effective than a wizard, since they should be focused on summoning anyway. The result was a VERY limited spell list, so I tried using bonus powers to open it up a bit.
I hope that makes sense. =)