e.g.:
my profile would be
6 sorcerer STR
5 master INT
4 champion CON
3 professional DEX
2 amateur CHA
1 novice WIS
as usual with my topics, stats range 1-42; with experience you enhance stats so a beginning character with novice WIS will probably have a low WIS; nonetheless, you can't tell unless you are high level whether a given creature is low or high level just by examining his lowest stat: a novice stat always stays novice unless its value climbs and exceeds his former amateur stat; in this case you swap both stats; a high level character might have a 20 WIS and you personally own a 21 sorcerer WIS; then you think his WIS is also of sorcerous rank; years later you finally discover his was a novice WIS ;)
buddhism think there are six worlds that you travel in; translated into D&D these could produce:
6 faerie (elves)
5 dragons (dwarves)
4 humans
3 mimics (replicants)
2 undeads (trolls)
1 brutes
then each world is linked to a novice stat:
6 CHA
5 INT
4 WIS
3 DEX
2 CON
1 STR
we
here in France will implement identity card with 42 levels based on the famous six D&D stats along with seven levels:
7 perfection/suprematy
6 sorcerous
5 master
4 champion
3 professional
2 amateur
1 novice
along with each stat level you work differently, using a different engine:
7 empathy
6 subtleness
5 ingenuity
4 merit
3 combativity/rage
2 enthousiasm
1 luck
I don't understand where you are going with this at all.
He throws these threads out from time to time. I like to try to make sense of them, but aways get the impression I am missing one or two key elements. I ought to start archiving them, and seeing if somehow they link together.
I don't understand where you are going with this at all.
Neither does he.
I don't understand where you are going with this at all.He throws these threads out from time to time. I like to try to make sense of them, but aways get the impression I am missing one or two key elements. I ought to start archiving them, and seeing if somehow they link together.
Yea, please do. I think these are funny but somewhere in the back of my mind I'm always wondering if this is really like somehow the true name of God or something.
I'm going to move away and roll a stealth before my head explodes trying to comprehend whatever this is.
a champion stat would work differently than the same stat at professional rank (etc)
of course, one might say that as sorcerous is the highest level for a stat, it should be the hardest level to climb and therefore refer to your lowest stat so that a character could bear stats like:
novice 18 STR
amateur 15 INT
professional 12 WIS
champion 10 CHA
master 8 CON
sorcerous 7 DEX
instead of
sorcerous 18 STR
master 15 INT
champion 12 WIS
professional 10 CHA
amateur 8 CON
novice 7 DEX
an amateur STR would have a few creative ways to use his STR;
a professional STR would use his STR to enhance reputation;
a champion STR would have feats of STR available to him;
a master STR would be allowed the full range of STR feats;
a sorcerous STR would employ his STR in the fields of magics.
now it happens that we share three basic stats:
1 luck
2 enthousiasm
4 merit
1x2 gives secondary stat #3
3 competitivity
1x4 gives stat #5
5 ingenuity
2x4 gives stat #6
6 subtleness
1x2x4 gives tertiary stat #7
7 cheating
equivalence of levels and stat names
7 sorcerer cheating
6 scholar subtleness
5 master ingenuity
4 champion merit
3 professional competitivity
2 amateur enthousiasm
1 novice luck
a basic stat may have a value of 1;
then you won't notice the presence or absence of the basic stat in the final result of your action
e.g.:
luck of 1
enthusiasm of 4
merit of 5
sorcerer 1x4x5= brut 20
scholar 4x5= also brut 20
master 1x5 = champion 5
professional 1x4 = amateur 4
novice 1
/\ Art
unset/set
1 randomness/luck
2 rigour/enthousiasm
4 ambition/merit
each of these 6 stats ranges 1-10
usually one with a high luck will be feeble at random (well for a typical 0-th level npc)
as a character progresses he will eventually climb up in every stat
then we define the seven aforementioned levels by multiplying stats three by three:
7 sorcerer = luck x enthousiasm x merit
6 scholar = randomness x enthousiasm x merit
5 master = luck x rigour x merit
4 champion = randomness x rigour x merit
3 professional = luck x enthousiasm x ambition
2 amateur = randomness x enthousiasm x ambition
1 beginner = luck x rigour x ambition
+
0 ??? = randomness x rigour x ambition
A PC has six "ability" stats: STR, CON, DEX, INT, WIS, CHA
and three "basic" stats: Luck, Enthusiasm, and Merit.
To generate your stats, you start by ranking your abilities from highest to lowest. Each position in the ranking is denoted by a number between 1 and 6 and a title between Beginner and Sorcerer. (There's one more rank, Perfect/Supreme, but you don't start out with any abilities that high.)
For instance, my ranking might look something like
6. Sorcerer: INT
5. Master: WIS
4. Champion: CON
3. Professional: DEX
2. Amateur: STR
1. Beginner: CHA
From what I understand, your ability score (the actual value) represents your current level of achievement in an area, whereas your rank represents your natural aptitude in that area. A guy with a STR of 18/Beginner is really strong, but only because he's put an enormous amount of work into getting it to that level. Another guy with STR 4/Sorcerer is much weaker, but if he starts training he'll be able to bulk up 20-30 times as fast as the first guy. (Why those numbers? I'll explain below.)
Next you generate your basic stats--I'm not sure how, exactly--and end up with a score of 1-10 for each of them. Also note that
Let's say my basic stats are
Luck 3
Enthusiasm 2
Merit 5
Each rank is tied to a array of these three stats in "set"/"unset" states. Unset Luck is called "Randomness"; unset Enthusiasm is called "Rigour"; unset Merit is called "Ambition". Each stat has a "level" hardwired into it: Luck is 1, Enthusiasm is 2, Merit is 4, and any unset stat is 0. "Level" might be a bit of a misnomer, but that's what we've got.
(Uglyvan has a table in the previous post that shows each rank's stat array, but you can also calculate a rank's array by adding up the "levels" of the stats in the array and comparing that to the rank's numerical level.
For instance, rank 5 (Master) is tied to Luck (1), Rigour (0), and Merit (4): 1+0+4 = 5.)
Anyway, now we can use each ability's rank to calculate that ability's actual score. We do that by multiplying the values of all the set stats in that rank's array together. Unset stats are ignored.
With my rankings and stats above, I work out my ability scores to be:
INT 10/Sorcerer (Enthusiasm 2 x Merit 5)
WIS 15/Master (Luck 3 x Merit 5)
CON 4/Champion (Merit 4)
DEX 6/Professional (Luck 3 x Enthusiasm 2)
STR 2/Amateur (Enthusiasm 2)
CHA 3/Beginner (Luck 3)
As you can see, my character starts out quite smart and very wise, and has a lot of natural talent in both. He's not very tough right now, but with work he'll improve. His people skills are crap, though, and even if he puts everything he's got into them he won't get much better.
And how exactly does one get better?
Glad you asked. Over the course of a campaign, a player will get opportunities to increase each of his three basic stats. When he does, every ability score tied to that stat improves as well. If my character increased his Merit by 1, for instance, his INT would increase to 12, his WIS to 18, and his CON to 5.
I assume that Merit increases twice as often as Enthusiasm, which increases twice as often as Luck. If they all increased at the same rate, there wouldn't be any appreciable difference between the Champion and Beginner ranks, or Sorcerer and Amateur.
Under that assumption, the guy from earlier with the 18/Beginner STR increases his STR by one every time he gets a point of Luck. In the same amount of time, the guy with the 4/Sorcerous STR will have gotten 2 Enthusiasm and 4 Merit; if his starting scores were (say) Enthusiasm 2/Merit 2, they would now be Enthusiasm 4/Merit 6. Multiplied together, that's 24. The guy with the 4/Sorcerous STR went up 20 points in the time it took the first guy to go up 1.
There are still some weird things to work out--Professional rank will usually increase faster than Champion, and I'm not sure how you get to rank 7 or how a "subtlety engine" works--but I think that's the gist of it. Basically, this is a system that models not just your current ability but also your future potential, and does it in a really interesting way. D&D has a fairly rigid class system that determines how you advance, but in this system your "class" develops in an emergent, holistic fashion out of the things you're naturally good at.
So, Uglyvan, did I get most of that right? Is there something else I'm missing? How do you get to rank 7? In any case, keep it up! Your threads are awesome, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Shine on, you crazy diamond.
(Also, does my explanation make sense to people who aren't Uglyvan? Anything I can elucidate further?)
Also I guessed a lot.
I assumed that Uglyvan actually knew what he was talking about, and then I read his posts over and over until I figured out what that was.
Also I guessed a lot.
Interesting...
well, at present time I don't have put together the two systems of the ability stats and their ranks, and the basic stats who when multiplied by each other reveal 7 (or 8 in fact) "levels";
the error within your post is not to use up the unset values as well (is this sentence clear???)
in fact there are three pairs of two basic stats.
This way we don't come with "Professional rank will usually increase faster than Champion";
also, the only use in sorting ability stats from lowest to highest is to specialize your character (there are 720 character kits available this way)...
so, as usual with my silly posts, I first go in a given direction to then say just the opposite (this is why I bear a bad reputation (or is it popularity ??) )
ohf, the first time I began to use a 7-level system was in response to the "echelon" project by an ancient AD&D veteran; the idea there was to say that after "master" levels there was nothing (well in fact I was using a 5-levels system - from beginner to master ) alors que echelon writer stated there was "Champion" levels and even "Legendary" levels.
Then I stated that :
beginner level gives you a percentage score to gain a new feat when you see someone use it;
amateur level gives your hit points;
professional level gives your combat skill levels;
champion level gives fatigue points (to cast spells);
master level gives your address book;
well it was the past...
presently, the seven (or eight when someone tells me wtf the 0-level means) levels should be used along with abilities, depending on what type of action you undertake:
using his STR professionally means like a rogue or a brawler; that is, you know how to hurt;
the professional level means "dangerous" level;
perhaps my definitions aren't what most people use:
a champion is much like a super-hero, so using STR by means of champion level should mean heroically;
a master usually means total control of his proficiency (or stat);
beyond master level?
scholar: in Ad&d 2.9E combat & Tactics, under weapon specialization... well here in France we called that a virtuoso; you call that a high master...
sorcerer: in Ad&d 2.9E it was called supremacy/grand mastery
(and by the time there is also a 0-level called non-proficiency)
I'm pretty sure its the mathimatical formula to summon Cthulhu.
well, actually it is true I have once summoned cthulhu in one post (well it was just like a contact other planes) as usual with my writings, I reread the message as soon as it was published, and seeing there was some perfection in it, was at first fascinated by the reading... then I realized people could have also a look at that and immediately decided to erase the post. unfortunately there seems to have been one victim from this post (Pigknight if I remind the following posts: my first comment was to laugh, unaware of what the reader was confronting at the time...)
I'm pretty sure its the mathimatical formula to summon Cthulhu.
well, actually it is true I have once summoned cthulhu in one post (well it was just like a contact other planes) as usual with my writings, I reread the message as soon as it was published, and seeing there was some perfection in it, was at first fascinated by the reading... then I realized people could have also a look at that and immediately decided to erase the post. unfortunately there seems to have been one victim from this post (Pigknight if I remind the following posts: my first comment was to laugh, unaware of what the reader was confronting at the time...)
Did you and Cthulhu talk? Have tea? Commit ritual suicide? Tormented monkeys?
say you are 10th level; your STR is Rank #5 ===> your actual score would be 10 x 5 = 50
you are confronting a 20th level kobold whose STR is Rank #2 ===>his active score would be 20 x 2 = 40; still with his INT #5 he will score 100 against your poor defenses based on your WIS #3...
Interesting...
well, at present time I don't have put together the two systems of the ability stats and their ranks, and the basic stats who when multiplied by each other reveal 7 (or 8 in fact) "levels";
the error within your post is not to use up the unset values as well (is this sentence clear???)
in fact there are three pairs of two basic stats.
This way we don't come with "Professional rank will usually increase faster than Champion";
The way I read it, the unset stats were the same as the set stats, just in an "unset" state. Ambition and Merit would represent the same quality, for instance, except that Ambition is only the potential for that quality whereas Merit is its realization. A Beginner has ambition: he wants to achieve something, but he hasn't yet. When he does achieve it, his ambitions are converted into accomplishments, a.k.a. merit.
It's partly because of that reading, and partly because of this section--
e.g.:
luck of 1
enthusiasm of 4
merit of 5
sorcerer 1x4x5= brut 20
scholar 4x5= also brut 20
master 1x5 = champion 5
professional 1x4 = amateur 4
novice 1
--that I figured that ability scores were calculated directly from the basic stats, and only from the set ones. The Master rank is Luck x Rigour x Merit, right? But in your calculations, you only multiplied Luck by Merit, leaving Rigour out.
But you seem to be saying that that's not the case. So how do you use the unset stats, exactly? How are they different from the set ones? Do they use the same number as their related set stat, or do they get numbers of their own?
And what were you talking about in that section I quoted just now, if not generating ability scores?
beginner level gives you a percentage score to gain a new feat when you see someone use it;
amateur level gives your hit points;
professional level gives your combat skill levels;
champion level gives fatigue points (to cast spells);
master level gives your address book;
...
a champion is much like a super-hero, so using STR by means of champion level should mean heroically;
a master usually means total control of his proficiency (or stat);
....
Ah, right; you mentioned something like that earlier. So ability rank is also a measure of skill?
An easy way to implement ability stat Ranks would be to multiply stat rank # by your xp level:
say you are 10th level; your STR is Rank #5 ===> your actual score would be 10 x 5 = 50
you are confronting a 20th level kobold whose STR is Rank #2 ===>his active score would be 20 x 2 = 40; still with his INT #5 he will score 100 against your poor defenses based on your WIS #3...
...oh. Oh, wow. Okay, that makes sense. Not quite how I thought it worked, but I see what you're talking about now.
Your ability score is your raw power with that ability, yes. But ability rank isn't potential; it's how you use that ability. That level 20 kobold with Rank 2 STR is pretty strong, but he only has a few ways to use his strength; a level 5 guy with Rank 5 STR is weaker overall, but he knows all sorts of tricks and maneuvers. The kobold would win if they were, say, arm-wrestling, but in an actual fight the other guy might be able to do something sneaky and come out on top.
Is that closer to what you mean?
...In any case, funny story: I've been building some game systems of my own in my free time, and, uh, it turns out that one of them is actually really similar to what I think you're doing here. Would it be okay if I were to maybe poach some of your ideas for use in my own system?
Oh, and by the way: when you talk about "multiplying the basic stats together to get seven/eight levels", are you sure you don't mean adding? 2 (Enthusiasm) x 4 (Merit) is 8, not 6. 1 x 2 is 2, not 3. And so on.
Yes, you can add whatever you want from this sample system: I am a loner with a few clever ideas; my reward would be to see something real come from my work here
obviously, the unset stats use values of their own.
the next quote ( with the five levels ) was an advertisement for the "echelon" system ( to hear back what his writer develops for now ) but it is a complete waste of time to read it ( sorry, you must learn not to pay attention to bullshit lol )
again in the last section of your post, I think I wrote "an easy way to implement"... well, this easy way is bullshit...
actually, there are ability stats (as you mentioned it) and basic stats.
basic stats give your levels amongst the different types of actions you might want to act like,
and ability stats are sorted so that one may look upon the hidden (and visible as on top stat)... perhaps... I don't know whether "a character has fixed ability stat ranks" is restrictive in from the acts he may undertake or additive to the gameplay; I don't know too whether "ability stats aren't valued more than in a given rank or highness" is a little somewhat realistic or pure bullshit...
thank you for your comments; I hope mine comments aren't too bad written (I know you englishmen like to add poetry in from the input you deliver writings )
in lieu of multiplying basic stats, just add them together ( that is, three stats of 0-10 each )
add ability stat rank x2 ( from 1 to 6 gives 2-12 )
that gives you a score of 2-42.
to help determine basic stats values, refer to the names below:
10 cosmic
9 godlike
8 legendary
7 epic
6 superb
5 excellent
4 good
3 fair
2 mediocre
1 weak
0 disabled
in lieu of randomness/luck, you can use fate/luck
example:
6/2 fate/luck
2/5 rigour/enthousiasm
3/7 ambition/merit
12 STR
10 INT
8 WIS
6 DEX
4 CON
2 CHA
14 sorcerer
18 virtuoso
11 master
15 champion
10 professional
14 amateur
7 beginner
11 wild talent/untrained
when using STR heroically ( champion ) you have a 12+15=27
basically these 6 classes of actions are called ability stats;
these ability stats are called STR,DEX,CON,INT,WIS,CHA.
STR is relative of the Fighter class
DEX is relative of Thief
CON (see below) = Paladin
INT = Wizard
WIS = Priest
CHA = Seducer
these are for the basic game system.
now adding more gameplay:
from AD&D 2.9E:
mix the 12 stats by coupling them two by two:
Fighter = Muscle/Balance
Thief = Stamina/Knowledge
Paladin = Fitness/Intuition
Wizard = Aim/Willpower
Priest = Leadership/Health
Seducer = Intellect/Appearance.
other combinations may include (for a total of 66 classes):
Druid: Appearance/Health
Cavalier: Aim/Fitness
Ranger: Leadership/Intuition
Monk: Balance/Intellect
Bard: Intuition/Knowledge
Acrobat: Fitness/Intellect
Barbarian: Appearance/Stamina
Spy: Appearance/Knowledge
Rogue: Muscle/Knowledge
(perhaps): Warlord: Leadership/Fitness
sorcerer is cheater i.e. meta-magic/psionic user
virtuoso is when you use subtleness in your action
master is for use of absolute talent
champion is when you use bravery
professional is when you are tricky i.e. using shadow
amateur is when you use coolness in your action
beginner is when you are curious, attempting new feats
wild talent is something like using innate, inborn ability with the help of survival instinct
relabelling stats with their DnD 4E skills counterparts:
Muscle ===> Athletics
Stamina ===> Endurance
Aim ===> Thievery
Balance ===> Acrobatics
Fitness ===> Intimidate
Health ===> Healing
Intellect ===> Arcana
Knowledge ===> Streetwise
Intuition ===> Perception
Willpower ===> Dungeoneering
Leadership ===> Diplomacy
Appearance ===> Insight
Stealth
Bluff
Religion
seem ok, but
History
is, to my mind, keyed to Streetwise,
and
Nature
relative of Perception.
By merging the six ability stats one with another, we happen to 15 secondary stats; these have been defined above (the 12 2.9E stats plus Stealth, Bluff and Religion)
STR+DEX ===> Muscle/Athletics
STR+CON ===> Fitness/Intimidate
STR+INT ===> Balance/Acrobatics
STR+WIS ===> Leadership/Diplomacy
STR+CHA ===> Stamina/Endurance
DEX+CON ===> Bluff
DEX+INT ===> Intellect/Arcana
DEX+WIS ===> Stealth
DEX+CHA ===> Aim/Thievery
CON+INT ===> Willpower/Dungeoneering
CON+WIS ===> Knowledge/Streetwise
CON+CHA ===> Health/Healing
INT+WIS ===> Religion
INT+CHA ===> Appearance/Insight
WIS+CHA ===> Intuition/Perception
( or something like that; very approximative on this presently )
STR/DEX: Fighter ==> Muscle/Athletics
STR/CON: Barbarian > Knowledge/Streetwise
STR/INT: Ranger ===> Willpower/Dungeoneering
STR/WIS: Cleric ===> Health/Healing
STR/CHA: Paladin ==> Stamina/Endurance
DEX/CON: Ninja ===> Balance/Acrobatics
DEX/INT: Illusionist => Stealth
DEX/WIS: Monk ====> Leadership/Diplomacy
DEX/CHA: Thief ====> Aim/Thievery
CON/INT: Psionicist => Bluff
CON/WIS: Druid ===> Intuition/Perception
CON/CHA: Brute ===> Fitness/Intimidate
INT/WIS: Archmage > Intellect/Arcana
INT/CHA: Bard ====> Appearance/Insight
WIS/CHA: Ruler ===> Religion
The contest begins!!!
edit: The contest ends!!!
grmgr bullshit