D20 Brutal

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

doomsought

Jan 20, 2009 20:50:13
Preface:
4ed took D&D in a direction many gamers didn't like. It was made simpler and precise mathematical balance. Thus it became more video-gamy and unrealistic in a similar degree. I am making D20 Brutal as a counterpoint. It will be based on realism and will not be well balanced. It will be complex and focus on an expanded combat mechanic.



Rules
[INDENT]Part one: From HP to Called shots.
Part two: Defenses and saves.
Part three: Feats, scalable or spamable.
Part four: weapon proficiency and specialization.
Part five: Meta-magic feats.
Part six: Explosions swarms and other AOEs
Part seven: Opportunities and other special actions
*Part eight: Classes*
Part nine: Conditions and Key Terms
Part ten: Scalable Feats
Part eleven: Magic Item Creation
Part twelve: Spammable feats
Part thirteen: Races Revisited
Part fourteen: Skills to Battle and Beyond

[/INDENT]
Tools of the Trade
[INDENT]*one: Weapons*
Chemical goods
Armor materials and templates
Spells
Powers
*Power sources*
Cars, Carts and Airplanes.
Mecha, Powered armor, and Cybernetics
Spacecraft and Interplanar Vessels
WMDs and other goodies
[/INDENT]
More to come?

*Incomplete
#2

doomsought

Jan 20, 2009 21:03:05
Part one: From HP to Called shots

With the sometimes ridiculed HP pool, called shots are almost impossible,
but it can be improved into smaller pools of HP for body parts. Hit Dice are Dead.
[Exceptions]Outsiders, oozes, swarms and some undead still have singular pools of HP, but are calculated differently.

Size: the size of the body part, taken from medium creature.

HP: How to calculate HP for this body part.

Shock: when a person takes to much pain or damage, they go into shock.
For D20 Brutal this is a simple mechanic: They are dealt more than their massive damage threshold in damage, or one of their body parts is broken or destroyed. When this happens they must make a Fortitude save Vs. Damage deal or go unconscious.

Broken/destroyed: When a body part is dealt sufficient damage, one half its own pool of HP, it loses functionality and is broken. When it is driven to zero HP it is destroyed, this causes semi-permanent ability loss or death. Broken parts may heal naturally but destroyed parts require magic, cloning or cybernetics, depending on setting.

The Body parts:
(for any humanoid and most monstrous humanoids)
Head:
Size: tiny
HP: Constitution score
Broken: concussion; -4 dex/int/wis.
Destroyed: Death

Torso:
Size: small
HP: 2*(Constitution score) + Strength bonus
Broken: -5 fort saves
Destroyed: Death

Arm:
Size: tiny
HP: Strength score + Constitution bonus
Broken: loose use of arm; Fort save Vs. Damage or severe bleeding
Destroyed: Severe bleeding, -2 strengh & dex

Leg:
Size: tiny
HP: Strength score + Constitution bonus
Broken: may no longer walk but can crawl at speed of 5'; -5 reflex saves; Fort save Vs. Damage or severe bleeding
Destroyed: Severe bleeding

Blood:
(blood may not be targeted by a called shot, but may be affected by spells, special abilities and severe bleeding.)
Size:- (takes no damage from AOEs)
HP: Constitution score
Broken: concussion; -4 dex/int/wis.
Destroyed: death

Spiritual Essence:
(like blood not an out right body part. This is the connection of the body to the soul, and is afflicted by energy drain)
Size:- (takes no damage from AOEs)
HP: Constitution bonus + Wisdom score
Broken: May no longer cast complex spells.
Destroyed: the soul is separated from the body. Sometimes the body becomes undead, or the body slowly starves to death in a comatose state.

Spell Essence:
(constructs and undead have their spiritual essence pool replaced by this.
Size:- (takes no damage from AOEs)
HP: Level of spell Castor who created, or Wisdom score + Charisma bonus if sapient.
Broken:--
Destroyed: the animating or binding spell is broken and they simply stop.

For other Types:
Dragons: Due to their nature Dragons add their Charisma modifier to their spiritual essence. Their fear aura has a DC equal to their current spiritual essence.

Fey: Fey bodies are partially made of spiritual energy. Thus as a minor action they may heal any body part by moving HP from their Spiritual Essence to that body part. Their Spiritual Essence has its HP increased by their Charisma bonus.

Constructs and Undead: use their Hardness in place of Constitution score, 1/2 Hardness replaces constitution bonus. Their spiritual essence is replaced by Spell Essence. Unless otherwise noted they suffer no penalty when body parts are broken.

Severe Bleeding
Every round you take one point of blood damage, then make a fort save VS 15+damage to blood HP. If you succeed you stop bleeding so bad.

Natural Healing
For each body part, one makes a fort save with a DC 15+ damage dealt to that body part (if no damage then skip it); a natural 20 is an automatic success. If the fort save is successful, then that body part is healed on HP.


Center of Mass Vs Called Shots
When making an attack one can either target a specific body part or the center of mass. Targeting the center of mass means they are just trying to hit the other guy and what body part is hit is decided by a D20:
Chart missing
However many reflexes are centered on the head, as it is a vital area. The head has double dodge bonus to AC for melee called shots.
To be finished.
#3

doomsought

Jan 23, 2009 14:47:00
Part two: Defenses and Saves

Up till now, AC has had problems, and AC as hardness even more, but there are some compromises that can be made to make it brutally more accurate:
There will now be four "Defenses": two targeting classes, softening and hardness. The saves will mostly stay the same.

The two targeting classes:
Both function just like old AC, but now both have nothing to do with armor.
Melee Targeting Class: 10+size+dodge bonuses+deflection

Ranged Targeting Class: 10+size+deflection+cover

-feats may add fractional cover bonuses to MTC, but never the whole bonus.
-feats may add fractional dodge bonuses to RTC, but always against a specific weapon type.
-feats and classes may add different bonuses to either forgetting class.
-enchantment bonuses to AC are deflection.

Armor Bonuses:
Rather than providing AC, armor now provides Softening and Hardness.

Softening: Softening is applied after hardness. Remove up to the softening value from lethal damage and apply it as non lethal damage instead.
-you may now wear light armor under other armors, their softening values stack.
-if you are under a spell that provides softening, it stacks with only one set of armor: your outermost.
-the softening value of an armor is usually 1/2 the hardness value of the material it is made out of.

Hardness: medium and stronger armor provide a hardness value.
-if you are wearing to sets of armor, their hardnesses do not stack. Use the bonus of the outer armor.
-however if under a spell that provides hardness, it does stack with armor.
-remove only half the hardness bonus from armor from energy damage, but the full hardness bonus from spell.
-the hardness bonus of an armor is usually 1/4 the hardness value of the material it is made out of.

-you may only wear two sets of armor at a time: a light armor and a medium or heavy armor.
-armor comes in four sets: breastplate/torso, helm/head, gauntlets/arms, and breaches/legs. Each apply their own penalties and bonuses.

Armor Design
Each set of armor has three characteristics: Materials, Templates and Enchantments.

Materials: the material the armor is made of, defines hardness of the armor, thus hardness bonus and softening. Also basis of HP of the armor.

Templates: this is the design of the armor, from plate to powered armor, from the pilos to the mk6. The design defines the penalties and its own HP, and sometimes alters the hardness bonus and softening.
Some designs, like Kevlar vests, require specific materials.

Enchantments: these can do just about anything.

-a list of specific armors, and some templates will be in a later chapter
#4

doomsought

Jan 23, 2009 15:23:12
Part three: Feats, scalable or spamable.
I must admit that I found the Idea of scalable feats on another thread(Races of War), but I have expanded on it, though I can no longer find the thread.
There are now two types of feats: feats that scale to a specific skill, and feats that may be taken multiple times.

Spammable Feats:
-May always be taken multiple times
-Some may have pre-requisites, such as other feats and level
-Provide a static numerical bonus
-tend to be defensive in nature

Scalable Feats:
Scalable feats become more powerful as time progresses.
Each has a key skill in brackets after the name {skill}
each has four bonuses:
-open bonuses with numbers in square brackets [x], you must have at least x ranks in the key skill to use these bonuses.
-Specialization bonuses with numbers in angled brackets , you must qualify for the bonus above it and then spend y skill points to buy this bonus
-locked bonuses with numbers in parenthesis (z), you must have bought the specialization (specialized) in this feat, and have z ranks in the key skill to get this bonus.
-tend to be offensive in nature
#5

rexracerjr

Jan 23, 2009 15:46:37
This idea seems too complex. I'd suggest you use the Gamemastery Crit Cards in Combination with 4e rules. Why, you ask? 4E Rules!
#6

doomsought

Jan 23, 2009 16:04:25
Part four: weapon proficiency and specialization.
Weapon proficiency is now split into groups, each weapon proficiency is a scalable feat, but also holds an entry for penalties for fighting with weapons of that category without proficiency. Specialization is also scalable feat. Each group has a specific specialization feat for weapons in it, but that feat applies only two one weapon in that group. Some weapons have their own specialization feat in their entry, if they do, you must use it instead of the group feat.

New skill: Martial Arts (wis)
As psions have psicraft and wizards have spellcraft, fighters have Martial arts. It is the expression martial skill, rather than experience. It is used for many scalable feats, especially weapon proficiency and specialization.
Martial arts may be used in Grapples (explained in a later chapter)
In a feint, Martial Arts may be used in the place of both bluff and detect motive.
Martial arts is used in parry checks.

Weapon Proficiencies

Weapon Proficiency: Swords{Martial Arts}

Non-proficiency penalty: -2 to attack roles, -2 to dodge bonus for defense.
[6]+1 to attack roles
<4> +2 to feint checks
(9) +2 to parry checks
[11]+1 to damage roles
#7

olfactatron

Jan 23, 2009 16:06:46
ITT: We attempt to jam The Riddle of Steel rules set into the d20 mechanic.

Though let me be clear, I appreciate your effort here but If you don't like what 4e is doing, there are other games that are already written that do exactly what you are looking for. I don't understand the notion of people trying to re-write D&D to be something it isn't. If I want a game where the combat flows smoothly because there are rigid classes with rigid powers that are balanced against the pre-written monsters so I can spend as little time as possible worrying about mechanics, I'll play 4e. If I want gritty realism where any dagger wielded by anyone could be the last thing my character ever sees I'll play Riddle of Steel.
Maybe if I'm feeling jaunty I'll use the elements of the D&D setting I like with the RoS rules. But re-writing the whole rules set is a waste of time.
#8

doomsought

Jan 23, 2009 16:07:00
This idea seems too complex. I'd suggest you use the Gamemastery Crit Cards in Combination with 4e rules. Why, you ask?

This is a 3ed mod, which will eventually be a whole new game. Its not supposed to be simple, but rather brutally complex.

ITT: We attempt to jam The Riddle of Steel rules set into the d20 mechanic.

One: I do not own The Riddle of Steel, and I have said that I was making it into a whole new game.
Two: I am doing this mostly for the same reason I play D&D, My own amusement. It allows me to spend my creative impulses while working towards a concept I am interested in. I honestly think it is unlikely that I will ever uses this rules set. I just want to try and complete it for my own amusement.

If anyone has somethign to add, such as a random hit table (I doubt that I will ever get to it), a feat or something else, I'll be glad of the help, and give credit.
#9

olfactatron

Jan 24, 2009 4:45:22
This is a 3ed mod, which will eventually be a whole new game. Its not supposed to be simple, but rather brutally complex.

I stand corrected.
ITT: We attempt to recreate GURPS using a twenty sided die.
#10

Qube

Jan 24, 2009 11:04:33
Some notes
-------------------------------
4ed took D&D in a direction many gamers didn't like. It was made simpler and precise mathematical balance. Thus it became more video-gamy and unrealistic in a similar degree.

and then you introduce a fall-out like damage system? Aren't you contradicting yourself here?
-------------------------------
Chart missing

... hmmm ... IMO the less charts used, the better. it slows gameplay
#11

doomsought

Jan 24, 2009 12:16:06
Some notes
-------------------------------
4ed took D&D in a direction many gamers didn't like. It was made simpler and precise mathematical balance. Thus it became more video-gamy and unrealistic in a similar degree.

and then you introduce a fall-out like damage system? Aren't you contradicting yourself here?
-------------------------------
Chart missing

... hmmm ... IMO the less charts used, the better. it slows gameplay

1) Actually I just wanted called shots to not be game breaking.
The parry rules I'll come up with later will help with this.
Also you will bleed to death, there will be no black nights saying "Its just a flesh wound" without some high level magic armor.

2)most people should opt out for called shots, as it will bring to play more strategies. The chart will only be used for when you just need that little extra boost to hit the enemy or when doing attacks of opportunity.
#12

doomsought

Jan 24, 2009 12:46:51
Part five: Meta-magic feats.
All meta-magic feats scale, and follow the same format:
Name{Spellcraft}
[w]prepare a spell with meta-magic bonus; it uses a spell slot at level +K; it becomes complex, if it was not complex before.
Once a day, you may spontaneously add meta-magic bonus to spell; it becomes complex, if it was not complex before.
[y]when prepared it uses a spell slot at level +(K-1) instead
(z)Trice a day, you may spontaneously add meta-magic bonus to spell; it becomes complex, if it was not complex before.

The bold word (super) indicates that you should look to the meta-magic feat template above for further details.

Matamagic Mastery{Spellcraft}(Meta-Meta-Magic)

Choose one meta-magic feat you have; bonuses from this feat apply to that one; you may not take this feat more than once.
[16]when you prepare a spell with your chosen meta-magic applied, reduce the spell slot level by one, to the minimum of the spell's original level.
<8>when you prepare a spell with your chosen meta-magic applied, it no longer becomes complex, if it was not complex before.
[18]targeted spells with with your chosen meta-magic applied, have +1 to attack rolls.
(23)when you spontaneously apply your chosen meta-magic, it no longer becomes complex, if it was not complex before.
#13

Rustmonster

Jan 24, 2009 14:11:22
Just to inform you, your rules are completly different than ANY edition of D&D. Please don't pretend that 4E was the one that started the game not being about every body part having HP and being "unrealistic". It has always been like that.

NOTE: Not saying you shouldn't do this if you want to. Personally, I feel that a game should be balanced, as I view not attempting balance or just throwing stuff around because "it seemed right" is in my view a sign of poor game design. You can make a balanced game that also simulates "realism".
#14

doomsought

Jan 24, 2009 22:00:38
Part six: Explosions swarms and other AOEs
Explosions, swarms, and other area of effect attacks deal damage proportional to the surface area the encounter. So now they very damage according to size category.

Each area of effect has the following properties:
Target size: this is the size category which the AOE does the listed number of damage dice against. Every size category smaller is dealt one less damage die. Every size category larger deals one more damage die up to double dice.
Damage Dice: The number of Damage dice dealt to the target size category.
Damage Die: the size of the Damage die; may actually be more than one die.
Range increment: (optional) large explosions deal less damage the farther away from the center you are; for every range increment away from the center of the blast the damage dice are reduced by half.
Radius: the maximum distance away from the center of the burst that damage is dealt.
Reflex DC: Sometimes the damage dealt may be lowered by half by making a reflex save. If a target has at least half cover and makes the reflex save the damage is negates. Damage dealt may never by negated without any cover or magical assistance.

-If an explosion occurs inside the target the damage is maximized, also the damage dice are increased by one for each size smaller than the Target Size that is is confined into.
#15

doomsought

Jan 24, 2009 22:29:46
Part seven: Opportunities and other special actions
Attacks of opportunity were a conundrum: they were used out of turn, they were something like a defense, but they dealt damage. At the same time there was no real way to simulate parrying. Now this changes.

Attacks of opportunities are replaced by opportunities, because they are more than attacks. In fact, although you may have any number of opportunities, you will only ever make one attack of opportunity per round by using them.

The base number of opportunities one has is the number of attacks one is granted by BAB. The number of opportunities one has may be raised by feats.

Opportunities may be used for three things out of turn: Parries, counters, and attacks of opportunity. But one may also spend an opportunity to make feint. Opportunities reset before one takes one's turn.

Opportunity based Actions

Attacks of opportunity: some actions are so distracting that they leave one open to an almost free attack. If one spends an opportunity, one may attack someone who provokes an attack of opportunity. Unless allowed to do make a called shot by a feat or class feature, one must target center of mass on an attack of opportunity.

Parries: Parries, not armor, are the greatest defense of a skilled fighter. To perry, spend an opportunity and make a Martial Arts check against the attack role, if you succeed the attack misses. You decide to make a parry before the attack role is decided, unless you have a feat that says otherwise.

Counters: Counters are special parries that allow one to return an attack. The ability to make a counter is granted by a feat, which has specific details on the counter, but generally one first spends two opportunities before the attack is decided, if the attack misses, either because of the perry or a low roll, one then makes an attack against the attacker.

Feints: To feint one must spend either an attack action or an opportunity. One then makes a bluff or Martial Arts Check. The target then makes an opposed Detect Motive or Martial Arts check, if he rolls under then he loses an opportunity. If you succeed in a feint you opponent is considered flat footed for your next attack.

Grapple
To grapple, you must make an unarmed attack on an opponent and then make a grapple check.

Grapple checks may be made three ways:
Brute force: BAB+strength bonus+size mod
Martial Skill: Martial Arts Skill+size mod
(Only if an opponent is at least two size categories larger) Climb on the big guy: Climb + difference in size mods

In a grapple you may do any of the following, each with a grapple check:
Trip: Both you and your opponent are knocked prone
Escape the Grapple
Attack: Use an unarmed attack, natural attack, or a weapon one size smaller than your arm.
Pin: you hold the opponent still
Push: You and your opponent move one square.
Choke hold: You opponent stops breathing, as per drowning rules (this may also be done on a successful reflex save when swallowed whole)
Swallow whole: If the opponent is at least one size smaller than you head, you may eat them. On initial success, you must make a grapple roll VS his reflex roll, if you fail he may remain in your mouth, or go down the wrong whole and choke you.
Climb: If your opponent is at least two sizes larger then you, you may make a grapple check to climb 5' or your climb speed.

Other special actions
Trip attack: you make a martial arts check against your opponent opposed by martial arts or balance. If you succeed he is knocked prone.

Disarm: You make an attack targeting your opponent's weapon, if you hit you may make an opposed martial arts check, if successful the weapon is removed from his hand.

Sunder: You attack your opponent's weapon to deal damage; He may make an attack of opportunity after damage is dealt.
(A weapon's TC is as if it were part of your opponent's body, with its own Size modifier. Unless he is not proficient)
#16

doomsought

Jan 24, 2009 22:54:01
Just to inform you, your rules are completely different than ANY edition of D&D. Please don't pretend that 4E was the one that started the game not being about every body part having HP and being "unrealistic". It has always been like that.

NOTE: Not saying you shouldn't do this if you want to. Personally, I feel that a game should be balanced, as I view not attempting balance or just throwing stuff around because "it seemed right" is in my view a sign of poor game design. You can make a balanced game that also simulates "realism".

1) saves were part of D&D since the begging, not multiple defenses. 4ed changed a great deal from 3ed which came before it. Why cant I?

2)one must realize that balance may very by several levels just from tactics. One of the reasons I am posting this is so my ideas can be better balanced. they do not have to be statistically perfect, but a few other people eye-balling it will help get rid of anything potentially game breaking. (I will also be nerfing spell damage when I get to it, if that is what you are worried about.)
#17

Dark_Stryke

Jan 24, 2009 23:10:27
I hope you're giving out a lot of feats in this system... Just looking at the section on opportunities, every single ability is either modified by feats, or can only be used with a feat. If the classes are as feat-starved as they were in 3E (save for the fighter, of course), then pretty much nobody is going to be able to perform all these cool 'realistic' moves.
#18

olfactatron

Jan 24, 2009 23:22:28
It will be based on realism and will not be well balanced.

One of the reasons I am posting this is so my ideas can be better balanced.

I think you need to figure out exactly what you want to do. Are you going for balance or not? If you're going for a system that's not balanced why you interested in creating more balance?
#19

doomsought

Jan 25, 2009 10:53:05
The words are loosely balanced: avoid anything game breaking, as well as not getting **** with statistics.

Yes, I will have to write allot of feats, I plan to give the Spiked Chain a trip attack counter in its Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. (All exotic weapon proficiency feats will be more powerful than common weapon proficiency, but not as powerful as specialization.) Also I know I'm going to evolve the charge parry of the pole arm into a counter in the group's weapon specialization.

Combat reflexes, will give additional opportunities, as well as some other stuff once I get some general feats sections. Lightning reflexes also give additional opportunities and is spammable.

But you won't have to worry about starting feats once I write up the classes section.
#20

doomsought

Jan 25, 2009 17:15:19
Part eight: Classes
With all the changes, I have to do somehting to the classes. Otherwise wizards will still be all too easily game breaking.
So, I've taken inspiration from D20 moddern and changed it up.

First classes are catagorized into 3: Base, advanced, and prestiege. And the EXP penalty for multiclassing has been removed.
Skills: Your max rank in a skill is now your level, the base classes take the place of the "+3", however the max ranks you may have in any one skill may be increased by skill specialization. If you have at least half your level in a skill, and it was ever in class for you, it is still considered in class.

progression: all class based numeric effects progress linearly, and are given as a freaction.

Base Dodge bonus: your skill in geting out of the way of blows, taught in the school of hard knocks. your full dodge bonus is equal to your BDB + your Dex score+plus some magic bonuses.

Base classes
Base classes reprisent all of your life experiances before becoming an adventurer. As you start your adventuring carreer, you should be fourth level.
Having one level in a base class is to be a child. A gang member who is a high school drop out would have two or three levels in bully, while an A student who gratuates highschool would be a second level dilante. A third level dillante is comparable to a college graduate.

Bully: As a bully you learned how to fight as a child, you are strong and you used to beat up the wizard's aprentice and take his lunch money.
BAB: 1, Base Dodge bonus: 3/4, Fort 3/4, Reflex 1/2, Will 1/2, Skill points: 4, Feats: Every odd level.
In class Skills: Martial Arts, Spot, Intimidate, Listen,

Survivor: You know how to take hits, or atleast get out of the way. Being raised by wolves does that sort of thing.
Bab: 1/2, BDB: 1, Fort 3/4, Reflex 3/4, Will 1/2, skill points: 4, Feats: Every odd level.
In class Skills: Martial Arts, Spot, Intimidate, Listen, Survival, search, Hide, Move silently.

Dillante: Everything is subject to skill, everything is subject to trainign. You know this.
BAB: 0, BDB 1/2, Fort, 1/2, Reflex: 3/2, will 3/4, Skill points: 10, Feats: Every Level.
In class Skills: All.

Others: Some races with extraordinary abuilities may grant those through the progression of Racial Base Classes.

Mixing base classes: It is usually as good Idea to have two levels of one base class, and one of another, so that nothing is left too underpowered.
Advanced classes
Advanced classes are what separate you from the normals; they are what make you an adventurer, and then a hero (or villian).

Fighter: You know what you do, get up in someones face and kick their but. You know their weapon you of their hand and then you stab them in the Face.
BAB: 1 BDB: 1, Fort 3/4, Reflex 3/4, Will 1/2, Skill points: 4, Feats: Every odd level, except first.
At first level you gain any 6 weapon proficiency feats.
(high attack and BDB, a few skills and feats)

Rogue: Its better to not be seen. It is easier to stab people in the back then.
BAB: 3/4, BDB: 3/4, Fort 1/2, Reflex 3/4, Will 1/2, Skill points: 7
At first level you gain any 4 weapon proficiency feats.
Every even level, except first, you gain a feat of your choice. At first level, you gain Sneak attack.

(has lower attack and BAB, rather has large number of skills and access to feats that let him use them for cool tricks)

more to be done:
Druid (wild-shapes instead of spells)

(Battle-caster Classes: each has 1/2 BAB and grants bonus spells/day or powerpoinst, but not spells or powers known)
Pallidan
Sorcerer
Battle mind

(full casters have BAB of zero)
Cleric
Wizard
Psion

(Blood classes)
Barbarian
Bonuses rotate as such:
+1 Str, +1Con, +1 natural softening
+1 Str, +1 Dex, +1 natural hardness
+1 Con, +1 Dex, +1 natural softening

Monk
+1 Wis, +1 Int, +1 Natural softening
+1 Dex, +1 Wis, +1 natural hardness
+1 Dex, +1 Int, +1 Fasting*
*Fasting: A monk may go one third his monk level in days without food.

Dragon(will wait)

The classes need fixed, probably, as well as finished, but I don't have enough interest in the classes at this time.
#21

doomsought

Jan 31, 2009 21:07:35
Part nine: Conditions and key terms
conditions are states that may be applied to a character during and out of combat. Conditions are almost always Boolean variables that hamper or allow actions and abilities.

Flat footed: Flat footed means you are unaware of your enemies.
You are flat footed during a surprise round and if your enemy is invisible or has hidden.
When you are flat footed you are denied your dodge bonus to your targeting class.
You may be flat footed to one enemy but not another.

Blinded: you cannot see.
You are considered flat footed barring certain feats and abilities. If you attack, It has a -4 penalty to damage as well as allowing ten enemy to make a reflex save against your attack. You cannot use opportunities.

Stunned: You mental awareness and responses are hampered. you require a DC 15+spell level Concentration check to cast any spell. You may not use opportunities and may only make one action.

On-hand: when dual wielding weapons your on-hand weapon is the larger weapon. If both weapons are the same size then this assignment is arbitrary.

On-hand: when dual wielding weapons your off-hand weapon is the lesser weapon. If both weapons are the same size then this assignment is arbitrary.

Light Weapon: A weapon one size smaller than the arm using it.

Ritual: A ritual is alike to a spell or power, yet far more powerful than even the greatest complex spell: For it creates something pertinent. Every thing else simply causes change.

Wall: A class of spells that create semipermanent barriers.

Class: When a feat has a class listed as a key word, only members of that class may take it. If more than one class is listed, a member of any of those classes may take it.

Severe Bleeding: The most dire condition you can have, see Part one: From HP to Called shots.

Attack types:
Bludgeoning: you hit stuff, it makes a thump.
Slashing: Deals one blood damage on critical hits.
Piercing: Ignores 1/2 hardness and softening; deals one blood damage on critical hits.
Concussive: force moving in a wave, ignores all hardness, but not softening.
Energy: Ignores 1/2 hardness and all softening, sometimes ignores armor entirely.
#22

doomsought

Feb 02, 2009 20:06:02
Part ten: Scalable feat list

Meta-magic feats

weapon proficiency and specialization

Item Creation Feats

General Feats:
Monkey Grip{Climb}
(provides a climb speed)

Powerful Build{Constitution score}
(Several body parts become one size larger)

Sixth Sense {Wisdom Score}

[19] once a day you may see magical energy as if you cast detect magic, this lasts 10 minutes. This is a supernatural ability
[23] You may see an invisible target by sacrificing 2 HP from your spiritual essence.
<6> You may permanently see magic as if you had cast detect magic.
(25)You may see though invisibility by sacrificing 2 HP from your spiritual essence. This lasts for ten minutes.
#23

neiltj1

Feb 02, 2009 22:30:56
If you want a relatively realistic game, where you dont need to roll up another toon every session? Look up Alternity.
#24

doomsought

Feb 06, 2009 17:54:06
Part eleven: Magic Item Creation
For all things there is a price. For magic items, the price is steep.
Its Reliquum; and it should never be confused with residium of 4ed.
For Reliquum is the essence of life itself, harvested from creatures' Spiritual essence in a deadly ritual. Good spell casters instead draw it from themselves, risking their own death. Evil casters will capture sapients, especially fey and dragons, to harvest their Reliquum.

Elemental Binding: elementals are unique among creatures in that their soul essence can be used to power enchantments without killing them. This is done by binding them to the magic item; although this is essentially slavery, it is far less distasteful than harvesting Reliquum.

Harvest Reliquum{spellcraft}(ritual, wizard, cleric)

[5]the victim must be secured and immobile, make spellcraft checks VS the victim's Will; you must have three successes out of four tries to harvest Reliquum; once the ritual is complete creature dies;the Reliquum harvested is equal to the victim's Spiritual Essence HP.
<6>increase chances to 3 success out of 5
[12]increased efficiency: the Reliquum harvested is equal to twice the victim's Spiritual Essence HP.
(15) +2 to harvesting checks
#25

nachtsieger

Feb 06, 2009 21:08:05
Wow, this idea is fairly terrible. It's clunky and has about fifty thousand chars to reference for everything.
#26

doomsought

Feb 06, 2009 21:35:50
Wow, this idea is fairly terrible. It's clunky and has about fifty thousand chars to reference for everything.

No, mostly I just bring in skills to combat.
I just need to finish up some more details on damage, get up a few dozen more feats and maybe change up weapons a bit and it will be ready for play test.

I'm just bringing allot more focus on combat details so that parry, called shot, and such can actually work. There are probably 1001 house rules posted on those and they were all pretty much game breaking.

Clunky? Look up Full Thrust, it uses vector movement rules.

and what do you mean by "fifty thousand chars"?

For gods sake, remember this whole sub-forum is supposed to be P.E.A.C.H.
#27

doomsought

Feb 07, 2009 15:12:32
Part twelve: Spammable feats
While other feats give you extra-ordinary abuilities, spammable feats keep you alive. They act both as a filler and a way to increas your HP and saves.


Lightning Reflexes{spammable}
+1 to Reflex saves, +1 Opportunity

Iron Will{spammable}
+1 to Will saves, +1 Spiritual Essence HP

Enduring Fortitude{spammable}
+1 to Fortitude saves, +1 to Blood HP

Toughness{spammable}
+1 HP to every body part

Improved initiative{spammable}
+2 initiative

Skill Specialization{spammable}
your max rank in target skill is increased by 2

Extra Slot{spammable}(wizard cleric)
You gain one more spell slot atleast on level lower than your highest spell known.
#28

doomsought

Feb 08, 2009 11:33:39
Part thirteen: Races Revisited
We are keeping the six standard races, but there will be some changes: three, human, halfling, and half-orc, will be in the humanoid type, while the other three, elf, gnome and dwarf, will be fey. In addition I may add kobold and dragon-born to the standard set, as well as making an advanced set, which starts at a higher power level than the standard set, and should not be mixed.

One thing that I did like about 4ed is how races had no penalties, so with the exception of gnome, who is small, I won't have any.

The Standard set
Human
+2 Con, +1 int
one extra feat at first level.

Halfling
+2 Dex, +1 Cha
+2 to Diplomacy and slight of hand

Orc
+2 Str, +1 Wis
+2 to Martial Arts

Dwarf
+1 Con, +2 Wis
Fey Type

Elf
+1 Dex, +2 Cha
Fey Type

Gnome
-2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Int
Fey Type
Small

For Scifi:
You could set up any of the standard races as rubber forehead aliens (elves=vulcans, orcs=klingons, etc.)

But if you want some different aliens...
Flying squid:
although they are not able fly in earth gravity and nor are they mollusks, the name has stuck from their appearance. Outside they appear like terrestrial squid, except they have only four tentacles, and instead of fins they have large leathery wings like that of a bat. However internally they differ much, they have two lateral spines, connected by ribs above and bellow, their six eyes are are inset in vertebrae. At the from of their body is a pelvis like bone in which their spines split into four and travel into each tentacle, half a meter from the tips of the tentacles the vertebrae are made of cartilage rather than bone. Although anatomically different, their chemical physiology is remarkably similar to humans. The flying squid home-world is nearly twice as large as Earth, but less dense, having only two thirds of earth's gravity.
Tentacles and wings have the same HP as Arms, they have no heads; otherwise HP is the same. Wings are Small sized.
+2 Dex, +1 int
Four arms. Tenticles cannot use unmodified human weapons (Craft: mechanical DC 15 to modify a grip)
+10 to swim and jump checks
Swim 40' (fly 30' in 2/3 earth gravity)
Water breathing (only)

Those freakish starfish aliens:
...when not to their 'face'. They are giant, omnivorous starfish. Although they have seven legs, only four support them, the two have shrunk into the sides of their torso and serve as the base for millions of meter long cilia that they manipulate tools with. The seventh stiff ellipse held at an angle to the torso, and holds the brain, acting as a head. The creatures communicate with subsonics, conducted through the ground rather than air, and see using the same sense, lacking eyes
.
Cilia is considered a single Small(-1) arm. Cilia may be regenerated and heal one HP ever hour, without fort save.
+2 Str, +1 Wis
+5 stability bonus to resist trip attacks
Cilia count as tools for craft checks and grant +2 bonus to all craft checks.
Light blind, tremor sense 40'.
Move 15'

The Advanced Set
(Don't think these will be explained any time soon, perhaps after I have the classes up)
Fairy (tiny or smaller)
Dragon Hatchling
Troll(lesser?)
Azer(elemental Dwarf, can bind self)
Some form of construct
Vampire
Treant
#29

doomsought

Feb 08, 2009 14:26:41
Part fourteen: skills to combat and beyond
Mostly I'm just listing the same skills you've known or ignored all along, but I'm adding a few and limiting the craft skills as well. The skills are grouped for book keeping.

Social skills
Bluff(Cha)
Synergy Bonus From: Seduction, Martial Arts(feint checks only)
Synergy Bonus to: Perform (acting), Diplomacy, Intimidate, Slight of hand, Martial Arts(feint checks only)

Diplomacy(Cha)
Synergy Bonus From: Seduction, Bluff, Sense Motive, Knowledge Civic/Nobility (for legal and regal settings, mostly court)

Gather information(Cha)

Handle animal(Cha)
Synergy Bonus From: Seduction, Intimidate
Synergy Bonus to: Seduction, Ride

Intimidate(Cha)
Synergy Bonus From: Seduction, Bluff
Synergy Bonus to: Handle Animal

Perform(Cha)
Synergy Bonus From: Martial Arts (weapons Drill), Bluff (acting), Handle Animal(animal show), Craft words (oratory, singing)

Seduction(Cha)
Seduction is the art of using peoples instincts against them. It is not merely limited to the first one to come to mind, but that one works quite well.
Synergy Bonus From: Handle Animal, Sense Motive
Synergy Bonus to: Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate

Sense Motive(Wis)
Synergy Bonus From: Martial Arts(feint checks only), ...
Synergy Bonus to: Diplomacy, Seduction, Martial Arts(feint checks only)

Craft Skills
Chemical(Int)
Synergy Bonus From: Knowledge: Arcana(Alchemical goods), Knowledge: Psionics(Crystal growth), Biology(poisons), Knowledge: Mathematics

Electronics(Int)
Synergy Bonus From: Knowledge: Technology, Knowledge: Mathematics

Mechanical(Int)
Synergy Bonus From: Knowledge: Mathematics

Structural(Int)
Synergy Bonus From: Knowledge: Mathematics

Visual arts(Int)

Words(Int)
Synergy Bonus From: Diplomacy
Synergy Bonus to: Perform(oratory, singing)


Knowledge skills
Arcana(Int)
Synergy Bonus to: Craft: Chemical(Alchemical Goods), Spellcraft

Art/Appraisal

Civic/Nobility(Int)
Synergy Bonus to: Diplomacy(for legal settings)

Biology(Int)
Synergy Bonus to: Craft: Chemical(poisons), Heal

History(Int)

Mathematics(Int)
Synergy Bonus to: Craft: Chemical, Craft: Electronics, craft: Mechanical, craft: structural, knowledge: Technology

Psionics(Int)
Synergy Bonus to: Craft: Chemical, Spellcraft

Streetwise???
Tactics??

Technology(Int)
Synergy Bonus From: Knowledge: Mathematics

Athletic skills
Balance(Dex)
Synergy bonus from: Tumble
Synergy bonus to: Climb, Move Silently

Climb(Str)
Synergy bonus from: Balance, Use Rope(when using ropes to climb)

Escape Artist(Dex)
Synergy bonus from: Use Rope(for rope Bindings)
Synergy bonus to: Use Rope(for rope Bindings)

Hide(Dex)
Synergy bonus from: Search
Synergy bonus to: Spot, Search, Slight of hand

Jump(Str)
Synergy bonus from: Tumble

Tumble(Dex)
Synergy bonus from: Martial Arts(To avoid Attacks of opportunity)
Synergy bonus to: Jump, Ballance

Martial arts(Wis)
Synergy bonus from: Bluff(for making feints), Sense Motive(for detecting feints)
Synergy bonus to: Bluff(for making feints), Sense Motive(for detecting feints), Perform(weapons Drill), Tumble(To avoid Attacks of opportunity)

Move silently(Dex)
Synergy bonus from: Balance

Slight of Hand(Dex)
Synergy bonus from: Hide
Synergy bonus to: Search (when searching a person)

Swim(Dex)

Other Skills
Concentrate(Con)

Heal(Wis)
Synergy bonus from: Knowledge: Biology

Listen(Wis)

Profession(Wis)

Ride/Drive/Pilate(Dex)
Synergy bonus from: Handle animal(Ride), Knowledge: Technology(Pilate technological vehicles), Survival(Pilate sailboat)

Search(Int)
Synergy bonus from: Hide, Slight of Hand(when searching a person)
Synergy bonus to: Hide, Survival(Tracking)

Spot(Wis)
Synergy bonus from: Hide

Spellcraft/Psicraft(Int)
Synergy bonus from: Knowledge: Arcana/Psionics

Survival(Wis)
Synergy bonus from: Search(tracking), Knowledge: Biology, Spot(predicting weather)
Synergy bonus to: Pilate (sailboat)

Use Rope(Dex)
Synergy bonus from: Escape artist(for rope Bindings)
Synergy bonus to:Escape artist(for rope Bindings), Climb(when using ropes)

(question marks denote that it might be removed)
(this will be expanded to describe changes)
#30

doomsought

Feb 10, 2009 19:33:28
Pretty much finished skills and updated some item creation feats.
#31

doomsought

Feb 15, 2009 13:31:11
Tools of the Trade one: Weapons
Weapons are the life of the adventurer, or rather the death of any that would take his. D20 Brutal covers all tech-levels, simpler weapons require a few structural and mechanical craft checks, while more advanced ones require chemical and electrical craft checks and even knowledge technology checks.

Tech-level:the tech-level of a society is measured by the maximum knowledge: technology rank a member may ever have.

Weapons and size
The ease of how a weapon may be used depends on the size of the weapon and the size of the arm using it. A weapon is two handed if it is one size larger than the arms wielding it. A weapon the same size as the arm is one handed and a weapon one size smaller is also one handed and may benefit from weapon finesse.

format(keyword)

Description
Size category; damage; critical; Properties
Creation checks; materials
Buy sell cost
#32

bartleby42

Feb 16, 2009 10:15:42
Okay I win at your system. I play anyone with a crossbow.
Ranged Targeting Class: 10+size+deflection+cover

So it's easier to hit things via ranged attack, and since called shots to the head are only slightly harder than normal attacks, I'll shoot everyone in the head and profit.

/game
#33

elondir

Feb 16, 2009 11:02:30
Unless the other side wins initiative and does that to your character first. Kind of like in real life where it's very easy to die.
#34

Rustmonster

Feb 16, 2009 14:46:01
Okay I win at your system. I play anyone with a crossbow.


So it's easier to hit things via ranged attack, and since called shots to the head are only slightly harder than normal attacks, I'll shoot everyone in the head and profit.

/game

Unless the other side wins initiative and does that to your character first. Kind of like in real life where it's very easy to die.

So should we rename the system "D20 Headshot"? :P
#35

doomsought

Feb 16, 2009 17:16:30
Which is why helmets are a very good idea, as well as ranks in hide. Buffs are all the more important.
Cover is for the smart, and Range increments will be... small.
Say 5' for hand crossbow, 10' for standard crossbows and bows, 15' for longbow.

But when guns come around, you're pretty much just left with hide checks and cover. (Derringers are 5', 15' for pistols, more for riffles)
I'm not sure I I should give muzzle loaders a base range increment of 10' or just 5'.

(also just added some Chi Strike feats)
#36

doomsought

Feb 20, 2009 18:48:00
Updates all this week I think, I've done most of the feats I've put up and some weapons. I added some races for Scifi settings; I still need to put up much more weapons before I can play test and work on proficiencies though.

#37

bartleby42

Feb 20, 2009 20:42:03
While you have obviously put forth a lot of effort into this, you still have the flaw all systems with called shots have. Either they are too easy, and everyone goes for the head all of the time, or they are too hard and no-one ever uses them.

Now you pushing on the too easy side of things, and even with a short range increment, the game will quickly devolve into, win initiative, head shot, ???, profit.

If you push to make them harder, i.e. comically high range penalties or huge bonuses based off of helms, etc, you might as well of never made the rules, because noone will ever use them.

It's a big problem that there isn't really a solution for. I keep hoping to come up with/find an elegant solution, but they don't appear to exist for this problem.
#38

doomsought

Feb 20, 2009 22:27:47
I've planned armor to only give bonuses to what its covered from the beginning. If you want to protect your head, get a helm, your torso, get a breastplate.
But it actually works out elegantly in layers:
First you can hide and get the surprise round, good planning and smart use of skills pays off. I think I might do away with the initiative Roll anyway.
Second is terrain, concealment and cover; when I get to it concealment will give a static bonus to targeting class rather than miss chance, but still more tactics and clever skill use keeps you alive.
Third you can up your targeting class with magic and feats.
Fourth, while in melee, you can parry or even counter.
Fifth you have armor granting hardness and softening which will drop the blow by much.
Sixth your HP is based of either your Constitution or Strength Score, meaning any body-part's HP can range from 10 to 20.

It will take only a few hits to kill some one, but a few rounds is all you need in combat anyways. The rouge can one hit someone with his sneak attack. But you never send snipers against players before epic anyways.

Six layers of defense, where in other editions you have only one or two.
This will make player survivability go up, while making quick kills easier for the players as well.

And parries. I must remind you, are the basis for truly epic battles. The fighter has counters which he can exchange back and forth until some one gets a strait miss or wants to save his opportunities for later. Now counter spells are more reactive (and possible), its a simple roll of and I may add some more feats to act like a fighter's counter.
Psions will have their own thing when I get to them.

Sorry for the wall of text.
#39

bartleby42

Feb 21, 2009 8:46:24
Once more I don't mean to rip your system to shreds, but your layers of defense aren't really all they are cracked up to be.

But it actually works out elegantly in layers:
First you can hide and get the surprise round, good planning and smart use of skills pays off. I think I might do away with the initiative Roll anyway.

It is never a good idea to make survival in a system to matter entirely on a skill check. This means that every character has to take hide, and anyone who doesn't have hide as a skill list is assumed to be be dead. Also anyone without a sufficiently high Dex, will die.

I'm sorry, they lose 1 level of defense.

Second is terrain, concealment and cover; when I get to it concealment will give a static bonus to targeting class rather than miss chance, but still more tactics and clever skill use keeps you alive.

And places huge amounts of work on the DM, and players complaining like crazy if there is ever a fight without ample terrain.

Any assault on a defensible position, entrance into a dungeon, or meeting on a road, result in losing a level of defense. This happens all of the time. In fact, an unexpected bar fight, against someone throwing a beer bottle at your head, is more deadly than being ambushed.

In fact if cover is that important, you can rename the system D20 cower.

Third you can up your targeting class with magic and feats.

Because dodge was a great feat. Once more you have an either or situation here, either you have a feat that is mandatory (thusly making low feat classes suck) or you have a feat that offers only a nominal bonus (thusly it is no longer a layer of defense).

Fourth, while in melee, you can parry or even counter.

I'm actually pretty sure you system isn't too bad in melee, with only a few bugs to be worked out. I also know that your system is broken as can be with ranged attacks.

Fifth you have armor granting hardness and softening which will drop the blow by much.

What? It's a layer of defense b/c it degrades? Getting easier to hit doesn't really improve your case here.
Sixth your HP is based of either your Constitution or Strength Score, meaning any body-part's HP can range from 10 to 20.

10-20 HP??!? My 1st level rogue, who was hiding (as per your suggestion), can throw a dagger at your head catch you flat footed, and kill a someone with a Con of say, 26, on good roll and really min-maxed stats.

So unless everyone always has a helmet on, you will die from 1st level rogues who hid and throw daggers.

It will take only a few hits to kill some one, but a few rounds is all you need in combat anyways. The rouge can one hit someone with his sneak attack. But you never send snipers against players before epic anyways.

This is bad design, assuming that DMs won't do something because of a convention you have is not the way to balance a system.

And parries. I must remind you, are the basis for truly epic battles. The fighter has counters which he can exchange back and forth until some one gets a strait miss or wants to save his opportunities for later. Now counter spells are more reactive (and possible), its a simple roll of and I may add some more feats to act like a fighter's counter.
Psions will have their own thing when I get to them.

Sorry for the wall of text.

This is why I want a system like this to work, but right now it doesn't. Do some play testing. Play the most obnoxious stuff you can. Make a party of all sniper rogues, make a party without hide. Try to break the system. If you can find a broken combo, or something that should be "held off until later levels" your system has a flaw.

The other problem right now is one of thematics. A brutal system should involve lots of epic fights, that are all very close. Loss of limb shouldn't be uncommon, but shouldn't be insurmountable. When I hear D20 Brutal, I think one eyed barbarians missing 3 fingers, charging into a line of spear men. What your systems ultimate combo is a goblin rogue who hides behind a barrel, throws a dagger and runs away.

Try making the system reward "heroic action" instead of focusing on "ease of death". Loss of limb can be fun, but the called shot system just doesn't work.
#40

Craig13

Feb 21, 2009 11:49:55
ITT: I don't understand the notion of people trying to re-write D&D to be something it isn't.

Why not, isn't that what WotC did? ;)
#41

doomsought

Feb 21, 2009 11:53:02
10-20 HP??!? My 1st level rogue, who was hiding (as per your suggestion), can throw a dagger at your head catch you flat footed, and kill a someone with a Con of say, 26, on good roll and really min-maxed stats.

You seem to read only my responses and never the full rules,
If your "level one rouge" were to throw a dagger, he'd probably use a Shuriken, which like all daggers does 1d4 damage, with sneak attack, the damage is automatically maximized to 4 damage, on a critical hit, 8.
That may give some one a concussion, but now your rogue has to run away.

Now also remember anybody can take ranks in hide. Anyone. So that isn't a problem. And its the smart thing to do; in a modern campaign your players aren't going to jump up in the middle of machine gun fire, instead they are going to sneak around as spec ops agents.
In past campaigns you're common thugs and brigands don't have bows, and when you get to fighting garrisons and such, every one can afford good armor and a little bit of magic. Also remember that not every one fights to the death, there is plant of opportunity for a player to go unconscious first and get captured, or backup to come and rescue them.
#42

bartleby42

Feb 21, 2009 18:41:39
You seem to read only my responses and never the full rules,
If your "level one rouge" were to throw a dagger, he'd probably use a Shuriken, which like all daggers does 1d4 damage, with sneak attack, the damage is automatically maximized to 4 damage, on a critical hit, 8.
That may give some one a concussion, but now your rogue has to run away.

Your right. I have not read all of the rules. But you still haven't playtested the rules.

Even with 4 damage, that's a whole lot when you get down to it. Sadly you never address whether or not you add ability modifiers to damage like you do in normal 3.X, or even ability scores in general. (I might have missed it but can't seem to find that). So assuming that ability scores and damage rolls are modified as they are in 3.X, your dagger/shuriken thrown by a level 1 orc rogue with a str of 20 will do 9 damage, and 13 on a crit. This will "break" the head of mostly anyone, and with, say, five level one rogues, I'd feel comfortable taking on a level 20 character.

I imagine that your solution will be to change how bonus damage is calculated. This isn't really a good idea. Instead of trying to beat the rest of the system into submission in order to make your called shot system work, why not fix the called shot system?

Playtest your rules, post the results. Post the feedback your PCs give you. Run a game. Hear the feedback from your PCs. Try to break the system, encourage your PCs to do the same.

Right now you have a start of a system, and some notions of what makes a system "better". This is good, but I think you might have missed the mark a tad. I'm not against systems because they are complex, but you keep making comments about making the system complex for complexities sake. I'm not saying a complex system isn't fun, some systems are fun in spite of complexity and some kill fun through undo complexity. This is looking more an more like it'll land in the latter category. Right now even if the rules don't slow the game down too much, the rules force characters to be un-heroic. D20 Cower won't be fun, Brutal does not have to mean complex and broken.
#43

doomsought

Feb 21, 2009 19:23:42
However with a near total change like this I have to write up, compile, and then do some initial editing before I can even play test. But you are right on thrown weapons, I will have to change that rule. No ability bonus to damage for ranged weapons. On the other hand a sniper riffle should one-hit just about anybody.
I still have to write up some rules for re-loading and a template for explosive weapons.

Though I'd be thankful if you would take some of the angry tone out of your writing.
#44

bartleby42

Feb 21, 2009 20:22:59
However with a near total change like this I have to write up, compile, and then do some initial editing before I can even play test. But you are right on thrown weapons, I will have to change that rule. No ability bonus to damage for ranged weapons. On the other hand a sniper riffle should one-hit just about anybody.
I still have to write up some rules for re-loading and a template for explosive weapons.

Though I'd be thankful if you would take some of the angry tone out of your writing.

First off, I don't mean to come off as angry, maybe there is a disconnect because it is the written word, but I'm not angry at you, nor am I angry at the concept. I can see you've put a lot of work into this, but I can see some big flaws, which you don't see as flaws, so either I'm wrong or you are. The quick judge of this is a playtest. If you are posting rules in hopes of them being playtested, try to be a little more open to criticism. Noone is trying to make you feel bad, people are calling it as they see it.

Second, your running into the problem of adding more rules to make a bad rule work. Your ultimate goal is to make the rules more realistic, what you are doing is making the rules fit a called shot system. I know well the lure of the called shot system, at hit to the head should kill someone, but called shots aren't realistic. I know they seem that way, but they have a very odd supposition they work upon "on a normal attack, you do not aim for the most vulnerable portions". Think about it, a normal attack from a sniper rifle will be a kill shot (be it head or torso), why would you need a mechanic that makes the sniper aim for the head, when s/he is already aiming for the head?

If realism is your goal, think about what wounds during a fight someone actually survives from (assuming the participants try to kill each other). On a whole the only fight you will walk away from is a fist fight. Bullets/arrows don't kill on a graze, non-trivial hits are mostly fatal. A knife wound that is non-trivial will pretty much kill you. Now the main argument given now is "but a bullet/arrow/knife in the arm won't kill you". And that's close enough to true to make one want to make a distributed hit point system, but that isn't an elegant nor accurate solution. A plausible, and simpler, solution would be to lower HP and roll this into AC. Have a "tier AC" when you know whether an attack is a miss, a dodge, a block, hits armor or penetrates. This isn't the only solution, but it's an example of seeing the problem and trying to get to the original goal, not trying to get a bad rule to work.

It will be based on realism and will not be well balanced. It will be complex and focus on an expanded combat mechanic.

I think I might be in the wrong here. I interpreted this statement as "The rules will be based on realism, and all imbalance and complexity will be resulting from the focus on realism", if it is your intent to be complex for complexities sake, and imbalanced to be imbalanced, then I've been criticing the wrong thing.
#45

doomsought

Feb 21, 2009 22:57:29
But that would be against the spirit of D20 Brutal. I am removing a full layer of abstraction. The whole point is Called shots, and no more black-knight syndrome.

And anyways A skilled fighter will sometimes not go strait for the kill, they will remove the defenses: If 4ed brings strategy to the game, then the point of D20 brutal is tactics.
I want the players to choose if they are fool hardy in going strait for the kill, or if they weaken their opponent first, making it easier. Do they snatch away his blade or shatter it in his hands? Do they decapitate him or rip his limbs off one by one? Do they rush into battle protected by plate metal or come silently letting not even an enemy whisper escape?
#46

bartleby42

Feb 22, 2009 0:32:14
But that would be against the spirit of D20 Brutal. I am removing a full layer of abstraction. The whole point is Called shots, and no more black-knight syndrome.

Okay so your goal is a called shot system, not realism. This clears things up a bit. Your current system has a flaw all called shot systems have, why attack anything but the head? It takes away a level of tactics. I see combat quickly devolving to "I attack the head" repeated over and over again.

You probably don't believe this, so let's look at some numbers:

Head:
Size: tiny
HP: Constitution score
Broken: concussion; -4 dex/int/wis.
Destroyed: Death

Arm:
Size: tiny
HP: Strength score + Constitution bonus
Broken: loose use of arm; Fort save Vs. Damage or severe bleeding
Destroyed: Severe bleeding, -2 strengh & dex

Why would I attack the arm? It's just as hard to hit the arm as it is the head, but if I'm attacking the arm I have to do almost twice as much damage and I don't kill the target. There will be times you want to disarm someone (har! a pun!) but on a whole, there is no incentive to attack the arm over the head.

looking into the future!!! Spooky!

The solutions to this problem and their respective flaws:

1. Make it harder to hit the head/Make the head tougher
This will cut down on attacks to the head, but also stop players from performing called shots. The second it becomes harder to deal damage via called shots than regular attacks, regular attacks will be the norm. (path of least resistance and all of that) This will work, but your called shot system will only see use once in a blue moon.

2. Make it easier to hit the arm
Unless it is massively easier (read 25% easier or more) it still won't be considered, and even then, it's hard to say that it'll be the option taken.
Example (using 3.X terms to illustrate):


The head's AC is 30 and the arm's AC is 25.

With an attack bonus of +10, the arm will be hit on 15-20 (25% chance to hit) and the head will be hit on a 20 (5% chance to hit). It's quite possible that the arms will go first.

With an attack bonus of +20, the arm will be hit on 5-20 (75% chance to hit) and the head will be hit on a 10-20 (50% chance to hit). It's very unlikely that the arms will be attacked, the benefit given from the target dieing far out weighs the benefit given from them losing an arm.

With an attack bonus of +1, the arm will be hit on a 20 (5% chance to hit) and the head will be hit on a 20 (5% chance to hit). There is no reason not to attack the head. Instead of having the PCs weaken a much more powerful foe, they have no incentive to attempt such a thing, and instead will try to kill a more powerful foe.

The only time it makes sense not to "go for the head" is against foes that fall in the "sweet spot" where there is a 10% or less chance to hit the head and a significantly higher chance to hit elsewhere. Even if you can get that AC in the sweet spot half of the time, your PCs will begin to ignore the other options because head shots are the best choice often enough.
#47

doomsought

Feb 22, 2009 9:36:53
First the head gets double dodge bonus.
And I was planning on changing the Broken property for head and body for a while now but just haven't been sure what to.
Do you have any good ideas?
#48

vaalingrade_ashland_02

Feb 22, 2009 10:49:12
I'm not seeing the realism here. What you've achieved with the called shots and sparse HP is going out the other side and getting Made Of Plasticine.

Even if there were some benefit to attacking anything but the head, you've made it insanely easy to just lop off limbs and shave off armor; things that are actually really hard to do.

You could achieve much the same effect by giving all characters 1 hp.
#49

doomsought

Feb 22, 2009 14:04:44
Not at all, few weapons can get up to ten damage,
those that can, such as axes and large two handed swords, are expected to.
Giving out 1 HP would mean instant death. Here even un armored you can take a few hits with most weapons.
#50

umcorian

Feb 22, 2009 14:16:55
I confess, I only got through the first part, where I saw a Head = your Constitution Score in hit points.

You're seriously proposing that every PC have the equivalent of 25%-50% a first level character's hit points vs. any foe with an Int above 3? Doesn't really sound like much fun to me.

I think I'd rather chop off my own head than play under this system. lol
#51

Rustmonster

Feb 22, 2009 14:27:32
Doomsought, have you ever played Dwarf Fortress? Your ideas reminded me strongly of the combat in DF. It's complicated, and keeps track of injury to individual areas of the body (it even goes as far as internal injuries as well as individual fingers and toes!). It may be more than you want, but maybe you should check it out to get some ideas. The fighting in DF is fast and brutal, and injuries can be crippling, and may even cause you to bleed out. The wrestling rules in particular are lierally bone crunching.

Here is a wiki for it, if you want to check it out. The wiki has lots of info, and it might give you some ideas.

http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Main_Page
#52

vaalingrade_ashland_02

Feb 22, 2009 14:49:01
Ironically, DF fix the OP's definition of 'not video gamey'.

As do a LOT of first person shooter video games. Also, Mechwarrior. Hold shift-# for a called shot!
#53

doomsought

Mar 10, 2009 20:21:14
Power Sources
Advanced technology of all sorts requires a source of power. Power scales by size and type.

Template

Description
Power formula by size
Fuel use by size (per hour)
Fuel storage
Fuel cost
#54

doomsought

Apr 05, 2009 13:17:12
Blood levels VS Skill levels
Barbarians, monks and psions.
I though about classes a little bit and decided my original plan of just re-fitting classes to the rules wont quite work in the case of barbarians and monks.
The monk everybody loves and knows is pretty much going to be absorbed into the psion/psionic warrior. You have Ki attacks (where the D&D explanation for psionic powers and the historical idea of Chi/ki is exactly the same)
However the monk class is going to be something different, just like the barbarian class and dragon class (used for dragon born, dragons and kobalds).
This new type of class will be the blood class, and will not have its attributes mixed with a skill class (that is why you multiclass); A blood class gives bonuses to ability scores and natural hardness and softening.
Barbs will get a rotation of STR/DEX/CON and NS/NH, monk (the class) will get a rotation of WIS/INT/DEX and NS with their own special ability. Dragon covers just about everything and also has size increases.

#55

lucifernietzsche

Apr 05, 2009 15:03:22
I'd always thought that, given the abstraction that is HP in D&D, the best way to make a more brutal and gritty game would've been to do the following...

Give Crits a higher probability of occuring. Reduce attack bonuses and increasing defense bonuses. Reduce the HP of all creatures including PCs (or instead increasing the damage potential of all weapons and damage-dealing powers...or perhaps a little of both). Make all called shots (if employed) impart some sort of penalty to the attack roll, then make a small, simple table of what happens when specific body parts get hit.

I mean...wouldn't that get the same feel and be a lot simpler?

But, I can understand making up a new system just for the fun of it, so I don't begrudge your attempt, and wish you luck.
#56

doomsought

Apr 05, 2009 19:14:49
I'd always thought that, given the abstraction that is HP in D&D, the best way to make a more brutal and gritty game would've been to do the following...

Give Crits a higher probability of occuring. Reduce attack bonuses and increasing defense bonuses. Reduce the HP of all creatures including PCs (or instead increasing the damage potential of all weapons and damage-dealing powers...or perhaps a little of both). Make all called shots (if employed) impart some sort of penalty to the attack roll, then make a small, simple table of what happens when specific body parts get hit.

I mean...wouldn't that get the same feel and be a lot simpler?

But, I can understand making up a new system just for the fun of it, so I don't begrudge your attempt, and wish you luck.

The point of what I did with HP was to nudge down the abstraction of HP without making it too complicated. But just ask your self, which is more brutal, simply dieing easily, or having your arm ripped off and bleeding nearly to death, and then passing out? (something that can happen the way I've made it) I just need to make it less probable for the players to be instantly killed, and let them get creative with dismembering their enemies. Maybe have the first encounter always be kobalds with adamantine helms? Whatever works.
#57

dave2008

Apr 07, 2009 11:17:13
The point of what I did with HP was to nudge down the abstraction of HP without making it too complicated. But just ask your self, which is more brutal, simply dieing easily, or having your arm ripped off and bleeding nearly to death, and then passing out? (something that can happen the way I've made it) .

You could hack a limb off and bleed to death using LuciferNietzsche suggestion as well and it would probably be easier and more fun to play. But not quite as complicated and fun for you to figure out the rules for. I have the same problem some times. Good luck!
#58

doomsought

Apr 12, 2009 19:45:13
Thanks Dave.
I've planned out how Psionic powers will work, and it won't be magic with points. I'm going to make each power a feat rather, and build up paths to more advanced powers something like the psionics of second edition, but more thought out and less broken.

The powers will be split into the inward and outward paths, which are telekinesis and esp respectively. Chi strikes, energy rays, disintegration and even warping of space is in the realms of the outward path. Precognition, telepathic contact, mind-reading dodges and mind **** fall under the in-ward path.

For the paths of power, chi strike opens 3 energy enhancements and concussive attacks, each of these has two exclusive counters and an epic form.
I interpreted most of your standard move-stuff-about telekinesis as messing with gravity so it is all descendant from Warp the world (a concussive attack), this opens up the options of having invisible telepathic hands, levitation and even producing wormholes.
#59

doomsought

Apr 14, 2009 16:19:17
I've posted my rotations for monk and barbarian but I am concerned they might not be powerful enough (give enough bonus to defenses).