I don't like this. I'd rather that everything operate on a narrative schedule. To illustrate, I almost exclusively run games set in major cities, where combat encounters rarely happen more than once or twice a day. Milestones (and thus, action points, magic item powers, etc.) almost never happen. Daily powers may as well be Encounter powers, most of the time. As an alternative, if a party is in a series of fights, I frequently find that 2-3 sessions will all occur on the same in-game day. In this case, a player can go for 2 sessions without being able to use his cool daily power.
So, here's my thought. What if Daily powers were instead Session powers? Rather than resetting with an extended rest, they reset whenever you sit down at the table. In the case that a session ends mid-battle, the DM could rule that they refresh after the battle is over. In addition, milestones also operate on a Session basis. The encounter count is every two engaged in per session, rather than every two in between extended rests.
The one snag that I run into with this change, as far as I can tell, is healing surges. It seems to me that they should also become a Session-based resource, as they are the major limiting factor to combats in 4e, and the milestone rules exist for the purpose of compensating for loss of healing surges and Daily powers. With this change, extended rests cease to matter, and short rests are the only rests worth noting. Groups who need to force sleeping onto the party (because the narrative doesn't demand it, as it does in my game) can simply have the DM require sleep at logical points or provide increasing attack penalties the longer the party fails to sleep.
How does this concept look? Am I missing a huge flaw?
"Session" abilities run into the exact same problems as dailys; being far more useful when playing in short weeknight than in weekend-long gaming marathons.
For your games, of course, do whatever works for you
I'd find it easier to apply that concept to things like rituals and item powers rather than combat powers and healing surges, but that's just me being lazy.
I agree a minor upscale is needed, probably give +2 to hit.
The idea of a per campaign resource is interesting too......
I like the general reach of what you're trying to do, but I also thing "per session" is even more artificial to the narative than per day (unless all of your sessions go as precisely planned as clockwork). In my experience sessions start late, end early, get interrupted by things or everyone decides to forge on ahead and play an extra couple hours that night, etc.
A more organic feel might be to space it per XP accumulation so they recharge 3-4 times per lvl*. This might be cumbersome so you might space it more like milestones: they reset every 3-4 encounters (and make milestones every 2 enconters regardless of days too).
This will come close to the mechanics of PCs facing multiple encounters between recharge periods but without forcing your narrative to have all of these things happen right ontop of eachother. This will have a few side effects I see though:
1) Players have more control over the daily cycle sometimes. If they get beaten up badly or realize they're low on resources they can choose to advance the clock (hole up and rest somewhere) to recharge their resources. This will limit "retreat" tactics of your players when they need to restore their resources between encounters. An appropriate houserule could be made for this, but none come to mind. The best solution might simply be DM fiat: "OK, the party recharges all of their powers now".
2) Players sometimes have less control over the clock; ie attacking an enemy stronghold would logically incur many many encounters. This is difficult to have an extended rest for a daily-recharge based system and still have the individual fights be interesting/threatening. This is another situation where a modified system would shine.
I like 4th ed's shift to a more encounter-based system, but dailies and healing surges still don't fit that model very well. I'd be interested to see if someone can come up with a good (and simple) way to slip this into 4th edition.
*this was just off the top of my head and my memory might be wrong. IIRC you're supposed to have ~4x your level encounters per day for average experience and ~12 encounters per level...this would mean recharging 3x per level.
TBP
This was to get more people using Dailies, and also because I feel that a Daily really isnt so OTT that frankly it should only be used once every six hours.
This creates a timeline that happens in game mechanics only - Encounter, Encounter (milestone), Encounter, Encounter (extended rest).
Essentially, we've changed the definition of "per day" to equal "per 4 encounters". This means you can't take an extended rest until after reaching two milestones (or 4 encounters). At this point, you can regain your healing surges/dailies etc...
Those encounters could span hours, days or weeks depending on what's going on in the campaign.
This works really well for our campaign.
Almost everything else in the game operates on a narrative schedule (At-will and encounter are units of narrative time, not in-game time)
At-will is once per turn. Per encounter is once until you take five minutes to rest.
I don't think that they follow a narrative schedule, really. I do, however, think that they follow a schedule more friendly to narration.
At-will is once per turn. Per encounter is once until you take five minutes to rest.
I don't think that they follow a narrative schedule, really. I do, however, think that they follow a schedule more friendly to narration.
At-will is not once per turn. If I have a minor at-will power, I can do it three times in a turn. Or 4, if I spend an action point.
TBP
At-will is not once per turn. If I have a minor at-will power, I can do it three times in a turn. Or 4, if I spend an action point.
This has no actual relevance to my post. This will be the entirety of my response to you on this subject, unless you actually bother to say something in response to my larger point which is not meaningfully affected by this inane nitpicking.
This has no actual relevance to my post. This will be the entirety of my response to you on this subject, unless you actually bother to say something in response to my larger point which is not meaningfully affected by this inane nitpicking.
I apologize. The inner nit-picker got the best of me. My usual haunt is the Rules Q&A boards, so I'm used to correcting people.
TBP
We've simply changed the everything to fall under "encounters" instead of "days".
This creates a timeline that happens in game mechanics only - Encounter, Encounter (milestone), Encounter, Encounter (extended rest).
Essentially, we've changed the definition of "per day" to equal "per 4 encounters". This means you can't take an extended rest until after reaching two milestones (or 4 encounters). At this point, you can regain your healing surges/dailies etc...
Those encounters could span hours, days or weeks depending on what's going on in the campaign.
This works really well for our campaign.
That might be a really good idea. It would fix a lot of problems that I have with the Daily system - if the players know exactly how much timeframe they have to use their Dailes, it makes it easier for them to know when to use them.
I might change it to 6 encounters, though. So it would be Encounter, Encounter (milestone), Encounter, Encounter (milestone), Encounter, Encounter (extended rest). 4 seems like it might be too few, do they ever burn through all of their Healing Surges?
*Daily Powers are now per Session powers. In addition every 2 milestones one daily of your choice will recharge.
*Likewise Healing Surges will replenish at milestones. 2 surges are restored per milestone +1 for defenders, you may forgo gaining an Action Point to recover 2 more surges. One additional Action Point (if any are left) may be spent as well for 2 surges when a milestone is reached.
*Milestones are every 2 encounters this includes significant (as decided by DM) roleplaying ones.
*An extended rest will replenish your bloodied value in HP, but no Healing Surges. Note that an extended rest can only be taken every 24 hours.
My current group had a really tough fight in an enimies' lair and we learned afterwards that some people we cared about were in horrible immediate danger. Most of the party had used their dailies but we rushed out and made the trek back to our base town. There we fought a series of running battles with numerous bad guys (of appropriate encounter levels) and burned what few dailies many of us had left and most of our healing surges. We will next session have to take on a boss (and crew) paired down to our encounters and very little healing. It will be very tense and very heroic. Sometimes you just have to work with what you have, you charge down the hill with bayonettes. :D
Not saying I want every game to be like the one above but it damn well is exciting when it happens.
I like the idea of stripping away any time unit besides encounter (Dailies recharge after four encounters). This might even do what I want better than my system, though, depending on the campaign, it may make Dailies come up so infrequently as to not matter; if we only get one encounter a night, it might be a month before a power is used again--not very fun for the player.
I think that Pyke_Moonshadow really hits it on the head by saying that it's all about the kind of situation and feel that you want to achieve with the game. I absolutely like the situation he describes, and, even with my system as stated, I might as a DM say that powers don't recharge, due to the situation, in order get that tension.
It really depends on the tone you want with the game.
My party often go into battles in the beginning of a session with the slogan of "Don't use your dailies, Don't use your action points" while mostly using at-wills, an encounter here and there, especially encounter healing powers, like the Word powers (Majestic, Healing, Inspiring, which you can use twice per encounter, but once per turn)
The last encounter of the night, they will often break out their action points and dailies, they almos tnever make milestones, preferring to take extended rests, even though that generally kills their time scale. First question asked every session is "Did we take a Short Rest or Extended Rest?" They also know I might sling an encounter on them during either type of rest, thus ruining their resets. It makes the value of the Daily Powers really shine over those of Encounter Powers, and makes the choice of At-will powers much more vital to character building.
Whatever works for your game, of course, go for it. I run Open In/Open Out store games, generally containing 7+ PCs, as many as 15 at one time have been in My games in any given day. I run 3 games a week, and this works for Me, as is. City Adventures, more Roleplay encounters, etc.. will change your dynamics considerably.
Seuss
Because of scaling powers, and therefore as you level powers would become useless prior. I decided because mana is so little anyway, to make a d100 check to see if your power actually costs mana. DC equal to the power's level x3.
So essentialy encounter/daily are at-will... sometimes... eventualy they runout.
To further make it interesting some monsters can drain your mana. It's cheap, but it works.
It does away with all the "where shall we rest now" problems. There simply is no more "adventuring day" and thus no more 5 minute adventuring day problem. The DM no longer has to try to figure out what the heck the orcs did during the night and why they didn't just track down the party and try to slaughter them.
However, I would not stick to this schedule like it was glue. Whenever there is a really significant break in the action, like the boss is defeated or the characters take a long break from adventuring type activity for some reason, then I'd reset their powers. That way they start each new major chapter of the story fresh instead of something silly like finishing an encounter and a month later you still don't have dailies back or going 4 sessions without being able to recharge a power.
So it would be essentially based on milestones plus "significant narrative breaks".
I might change it to 6 encounters, though. So it would be Encounter, Encounter (milestone), Encounter, Encounter (milestone), Encounter, Encounter (extended rest). 4 seems like it might be too few, do they ever burn through all of their Healing Surges?
Yes. They're usually begging for an extended rest by the end of the 4th encounter.
1st Encounter of the Day, nobody uses Dailies, few if any use Action Points, mainly encounters and at-wills.
2nd Encounter of the Day, 75% use Dailies, Everyone uses an Action Point, All encounter powers used, finish them off with at-wills.
Party begs for an extended rest.
Rinse, repeat.
Seuss
My players are often lucky to get through 2 encounters before they want an extended rest. They know they have to wait all day to get one, but they usually need it. The way it normally goes in My campaigns is:
1st Encounter of the Day, nobody uses Dailies, few if any use Action Points, mainly encounters and at-wills.
2nd Encounter of the Day, 75% use Dailies, Everyone uses an Action Point, All encounter powers used, finish them off with at-wills.
Party begs for an extended rest.
Rinse, repeat.
Seuss
You're too kind to them. Throw a third encounter at them while they sit around. lol. Pretty soon they'll be saving those dailies.
Yes. They're usually begging for an extended rest by the end of the 4th encounter.
This can depend on the group. Groups that have ways to reduce damage, gain temp HP, get extra healing per HS use, and etc. tend to be able to last longer. Most times the group is running low on HSes which is why they want to rest.
My players are often lucky to get through 2 encounters before they want an extended rest. They know they have to wait all day to get one, but they usually need it. The way it normally goes in My campaigns is:
1st Encounter of the Day, nobody uses Dailies, few if any use Action Points, mainly encounters and at-wills.
2nd Encounter of the Day, 75% use Dailies, Everyone uses an Action Point, All encounter powers used, finish them off with at-wills.
Party begs for an extended rest.
Rinse, repeat.
Seuss
What kind of encounters are you throwing at them? Also is it possible these are low level characters? Since it's not until level 5 that you get your 2nd daily attack power a lot of times people wanna rest after they burn their only one. And it sounds like you party is doing a nova on the 2nd fight simply because they can.
Honestly at the early levels just about the only reason for rest is to get more healing surges. You only have 1 Daily so it's not unreasonable to think you only get to burn a daily once every four fights or more.
Also you get an action point and the use of another magic item daily power every milestone. Many magic items have powers on par with class daily powers. So going into the 3rd encounter they have an AP, 25% still have Daily powers, the use of 1-2 Magic Item Daily powers (depending on equipment and previous uses), plus all their encounter and at-will powers. That is less than what they used in the first encounter that is at their disposal.
Also a great way to keep the AP flowing which our party does as it helps in the long haul is don't use an AP for the first two fights. If you save your AP then after the first milestone you have 2 AP. Since it's only 2 fights until your next AP that means you can use 1 AP in each fight and still have an AP after the fourth. So you pretty much get 3 combats in a row with using an AP.
Yes, once the 2nd and 3rd Daily powers come into play, the characters are more likely to try for those milestones and the associated benefits, however, I don't foresee My groups going too much longer than 2 encounters before going for a rest, as I still tend to burn quite a few hps each encounter, so the defenders at least are running low on Healing Surges by then. I know Defenders have alot of healing surges, but with limited Defenders, and them soaking damage as much as they can, they do burn fast.
In the higher level game, we did a full rest every 2-3 encounters too, now, rarely had My Wizard used up all his Daily powers before a rest, generally only Flaming Sphere and maybe Bigby's Icy Grasp, only because I a> knew the rest was coming as everyone else had used a bunch of daily powers, and b> because i often used these two powers together as a killer combo attack, Bigby's holding a monster in place, while the Sphere auto-damages it.
The whole "Extended Rest" thing also harkens back to the old Spell Memorization format of previous editions, where once you use them, you lose them was the motto of a spell caster. My characters like I said "TRY" to hold onto their APs and Daily powers, however, sometimes they even use them in the 1st encounter of the day, especially if I trick them into thinking the encounter is tougher than it is. It sucks when they do it, for them, because it usually means another extended rest is coming up. When I do put them under a time crunch, combat often takes longer as they conserve their bigger powers and wear the enemies down, and they will be more likely to lose 1-3 PCs more than not, I do tend to kill 1 pc every other session.
Seuss
I'm not satisfied with the current Milestone rules or that Daily powers are, in fact, per day. Almost everything else in the game operates on a narrative schedule (At-will and encounter are units of narrative time, not in-game time), but Daily powers and Milestones operate on an in-game schedule.
I don't like this. I'd rather that everything operate on a narrative schedule. To illustrate, I almost exclusively run games set in major cities, where combat encounters rarely happen more than once or twice a day. Milestones (and thus, action points, magic item powers, etc.) almost never happen. Daily powers may as well be Encounter powers, most of the time. As an alternative, if a party is in a series of fights, I frequently find that 2-3 sessions will all occur on the same in-game day. In this case, a player can go for 2 sessions without being able to use his cool daily power.
So, here's my thought. What if Daily powers were instead Session powers? Rather than resetting with an extended rest, they reset whenever you sit down at the table. In the case that a session ends mid-battle, the DM could rule that they refresh after the battle is over. In addition, milestones also operate on a Session basis. The encounter count is every two engaged in per session, rather than every two in between extended rests.
The one snag that I run into with this change, as far as I can tell, is healing surges. It seems to me that they should also become a Session-based resource, as they are the major limiting factor to combats in 4e, and the milestone rules exist for the purpose of compensating for loss of healing surges and Daily powers. With this change, extended rests cease to matter, and short rests are the only rests worth noting. Groups who need to force sleeping onto the party (because the narrative doesn't demand it, as it does in my game) can simply have the DM require sleep at logical points or provide increasing attack penalties the longer the party fails to sleep.
How does this concept look? Am I missing a huge flaw?
Honestly, this sounds good, until you run into times where you are RPing for like days on end, and have to use your "Session" powers at the beginning of that time, and don't have them later when you really need them....
One solution you could try is giving Daily powers a "Recharge: 6 or Extended Rest" thing.... I haven't tried it out in my own games, but I'm tempted to if I run a new game sometimes soon