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| #1bone_nagaMay 21, 2009 21:48:53 | Ok, I've been working on a dark fantasy/horror campaign, so here are my houserules. Before I post them, let me make it clear that I'm looking for comments on balance issues and how they will affect the game. I'm also curious as to whether or not you think they evoke the same feel that I am aiming for. Rules: Background: This campaign is a very dark, gritty, lovecraftian campaign, and the rules are intended to invoke that feel. Magic is rare and mysterious. The people are very superstitious and tend to react violently towards anything too new or different. In their defense, the world's mana (the source of arcane power), has become corrupted, killing anyone that attempts to harness it. A great war between two factions of wizards (the reason the mana became corrupted) has torn the continent apart and plunged it into a dark age. Now the only wielders of arcane magic are warlocks who are shunned for the pacts they have made with dark powers. Divine magic is generally unheard of, although unscrupulous priests sometimes use tricks and illusions to con money from worshipers. PCs exhibiting such power may be seen as miracle workers, threats to the church's power, and/or may be mistaken for warlocks and attacked by panicked locals. 1) Facing. Ignore the normal rules for flanking. Characters get 1 free facing change per round on their turn. Further changes cost 1 square of movement or a minor action. A character also gets a free facing change anytime he takes an immediate action or makes an opportunity attack. Enemies to the character's front are treated normally. Enemies to the flank receive concealment. Enemies to the rear are granted total concealment and gain combat advantage against the character. NOTE: This rule has nothing to do with the nature of the campaign. I realize that its no more or less realistic than the current rules, but it does add another tactical element to combat, and my group has been using facing rules since 2e. 2) Sanity. I liked the Call of Cthulhu d20 rules on sanity, but I didn't want to do a lot of long term tracking so I decided to go with a more temporary one like Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem. Basically, sanity points work the same as hit points. Psychic damage reduces SP instead of HP. Traumatic events (like watching a friend die or stumbling on a mutilated corpse) also reduce sanity. When activating a healing surge, the character can choose to heal either HP or SP. When you reach 0 SP, you go temporarily insane (usually either run in fear, go comatose, or become homocidal, but there are other options, I try to pick one appropriate for the situation, all of them take the character out of the fight). You then make saving throws similar to death saving throws, and if failed you go permanently insane, at which point only powerful rituals can restore your shattered mind. I've been playtesting this rule and its been a lot of fun when someone goes crazy (no one has gone permanently insane yet). 3) Daily Powers. After taking an extended rest, the character must expend 1 Healing Surge for each expended daily power that he wishes to recharge. This is because the game will not be as combat-heavy as a regular campaign, so if the party only faces one or two encounters that day, the dailies become uber-encounter powers. I'm hoping that this rule will make them think twice about spamming dailies for no reason without totally gimping them. 4) Magic. Any arcane classes are refluffed as warlocks (they just don't get the cool pacts). Magic items are exceedingly rare. Most magic items are replaced by mundane equivalents (masterwork items). Magic items that are discovered scale in power with the PC (they draw upon the wielder's inner strength). 5) More lethal combat. Just an added touch to make combat a little more lethal to both sides, but not overwhelmingly so. The 1/2 level bonus now applies to damage as well. 6) Critical hits. We'll be using a critical hit chart, which has been popular in the group since 2e. I'm toning it down to reflect the 4e philosophies. Instant death and serious injuries are possible, but it requires multiple dice to go against you, plus you must fail a saving throw. I'm also thinking about allowing an action point to negate the critical effect, but that might be too much in favor of the PCs, plus it would encourage them to hoard points instead of spending them. 7) Utility Powers. Due to more focus on non-combat encounters, characters have the option of swapping out an attack power for a utility power of the same type (at-will, encounter, or daily), of the same level or lower (to make this an option right away, I changed all level 2 Utilities to level 1). 8) At-will powers. Characters gain extra at-wills as they level. I haven't decided on which level yet. 10th seems obvious, but I'd like them to have the extra options sooner. 9) Forbidden Knowledge. This skill is similar to the Cthulhu Mythos skill. It causes sanity loss on a successful check, but provides something useful in return. 10) Getting the drop on someone. If the PCs sneak up on a "mook" (like a guard or something) undetected, the enemies are treated as minions for the surprise round only. If they're still alive after that, they revert to their normal stats and will probably sound the alarm. This never applies to important NPCs or bosses. It's meant to let the party feasibly sneak into a guarded keep or something, not let them one-shot the BBEG. So...thoughts...suggestion? |
| #2lady_ishtarMay 21, 2009 23:19:13 | 1. seems fine, especially if your group likes it/is used to it. 2. how long does insanity last? at a first glance seems like fun. permanent insanity might be a problem later on. although it also may prove deadly in difficult encounters, as healing might be limited. worth a try at a first glance. 3. the problem is that in penalizes low Con/low surge classes. it might work out fine with few encounters, but if for some reason they have more than one or two encounters in a day it could be a problem. 4. shouldn't be a problem, assuming PCs get their +1 to hit, AC and NADs as they level. 5. this i see as a problem, especially combined with #2 and #3. 6. im against critical hits table, but if your group likes it, go for it. but i see it making the game very deadly when combined with #2, #3 and #5 7. in a combat-lite game could be fun 8. i do this in my game, everyone starts with an extra at-will. no problems so far. 9. could be deadly, but at least you know what you are getting into. 10. i like this one. consider it stolen ![]() all in all i would drop #3 and #5. as far as dailys go, it is not just when to use it, but also what target to use it on. but i do give my players a target rich environment. |
| #3johnthedm7000May 21, 2009 23:52:42 | If your interested, I've got some homebrew taint rules written up that I feel capture some of the feel of lovecraftian horror pretty well, along with tainted feats and tainted paragon paths. Interested? |
| #4bartleby42May 22, 2009 1:12:03 | 1) Facing If you like this kind of rule go for it. That being said it takes away from verisimilitude and needlessly complicates things. 2) Sanity. Not a bad fix. The only issue I can see is Warlocks would be dealing damage to a different HP pool than the rest of the party. It's a nice low paperwork fix. I personally would like to see sanity developed a bit more. I would have SP derived from Wisdom in the same way HP is derived from Constitution. [on a side note the amount of HP gained fits nicely in line with the amount of SP you would want gained for a Cthuhlu style game (Spell caster all get less, divine casters get a little more, melee gets the most, except those who kill people often)]. You might want to have the PCs permantantly lose 1 SP every time they drop below their surge value, and 5 SP every time they die (if you allow resurrection). I would also keep SP from "refreshing" with a nights rest. It might just have the end result of being a Healing surge tax, but that in itself helps make a campaign more horror-esque. 3) Daily Powers. This amounts to a feat tax and a benefit for defenders. That being said, it's great for a horror campaign. Less healing is scary. 4) Magic. All cosmetic and transparent. I'm really glad you didn't go the route of "there is no magic so you don't get to have nice things". Good rule. 5) More lethal combat. I honestly don't know. It should speed up some encounters, but PCs might drop like flies. But you want PCs to drop like flies (or come really close to staying down) in a horror campaign. I don't think it's too unbalancing. The worst that comes with this is an extra 15 damage, and at level 30, that's not much. 6) Critical hits. While critical hit charts are fun if you roll that 20, they suck so hard if you are hit by a critical hit. Just like facing rules, if you and your group really likes them fine, but that doesn't stop the rules from being a bad idea. 7) Utility Powers. This shouldn't be a big deal, mostly because most utility powers are really combat powers with a funny name. Off the top of my head I can't come up with any horrifically broken combos, so you should be safe on that front. Though I'm not really sure what this will achieve, in my experience utilities aren't really used all that much out of combat. What's more likely to happen is crazy multiclassing abuse. 8) At-will powers. Big nerf to humans. If you must do this, I say 10th and 20th. And give humans some sort of candy to soften the blow to them. (Maybe a bonus to SP and/or resistance 5 +1/2 level to damage to their SP [assuming that due to closer assoication with the feywild, shadowfell, etc the demi-races are less stable and more receptive to the old one's call]) 9) Forbidden Knowledge. I'd make it a feat instead of a skill, just to keep it from being rolled all the time by the one guy who is never hit in combat. 10) Getting the drop on someone. I like it. It make stealth a much better skill. I would watch out for abuse of this rule. In fact I wouldn't tell the PCs about the rule. If it fits in with the story, and they are sufficiently sneaky/crafty/have a really good idea "minion-ize" the mooks for that round. Tell them that you are giving a hefty damage bonus because of the subterfuge if they go "awww it was a minion". On a whole good rules. I don't like the old table top game rules (facing, critical tables) but if your group really demands it.... |
| #5gregt_314May 22, 2009 2:08:36 | 1) Facing. Does facing affect movement? It's alright to walk backwards and sideways without changing facing? If so, sure, go for it. You should be aware it has balance issues in terms of making rogues significantly better and all defender classes significantly worse. If facing DOES affect movement (ie, you can only move a direction you're facing), it's a real problem as it dramatically cuts down combat mobility for all classes, which runs specifically counter to the 4E design philosophy. Either way, expect players to put their backs to something safe (a wall or cleared passageway) and stay put, which may put a significant dent in the excitement value of your encounters. 2) Sanity. "Psychic damage does SP damage" will break some monsters (making them too good or too weak) and I suspect it's not going to be compatible with upcoming PHB3 classes, but if you're not planning on using PHB3 and you're willing to carefully look at monsters before using them this could be kind of cool. Mechanically it certainly suits your setting. 3) Daily Powers. I don't think this is going to have the effect you want it to. Players are still going to drop dailies, they're going to expend healing surges to get them back, and then they're going to complain that they need an extended rest to get their healing surges back. Dailies are too fun (and too useful) to ration this way, so you're effectively just taxing them healing surges rather than actually disincentivising dailies. But it'll depend on your group - if your group responds the way you want them to then run with it. 4) Magic. Any arcane classes are refluffed as warlocks. As in, wizards work exactly the same, but they're just called "warlocks", and are described as getting their power from demons? Sure, that's fine. If you're actually removing or editing the non-warlock arcane classes you'll run into trouble, as wizards are the only controllers in PHB1. I'm generally not in favour of removing class options unless they're mechanically broken in some way. 5) More lethal combat. Shouldn't be a problem. It's a slight nerf to strikers as they're not doing as much damage proportionately over other characters, but it's not a big deal. 6) Critical hits. This sounds like a logistical nightmare, especially bearing in mind that 4E already has quite well-balanced crit rules. But if it's something that's going to make your group loudly cheer then go with it. I think it will make your world feel less fair, which I guess suits the Lovecraft mythos. 7) Utility Powers. When they "pick" the power? So they're stuck with it until they retrain? That's probably a bit mean. Or on a day-by-day basis, like the way wizards pick their powers? That's a bit better. You might be better served just doubling the number of utilities characters get each time they would normally get a utility. Or letting them take double and "memorise" the normal amount, like a wizard. I suspect the aim here is to provide more non-combat powers, but bear in mind that only a few classes get a meaningful selection of non-combat utilities. 8) At-will powers. Characters gain extra at-wills as they level. Handing out extra combat powers will make players want to use them. You'll end up with more combats, not less. I can't see a clear rationale for this change - if you don't feel your players have enough options in combat, then a good place to start would be to stop taxing them for using dailies. 9) Forbidden Knowledge. Sounds great. Which classes get it? Do they get it in addition to normal skills, or instead of? Probably the best way to do it is to replace the "Arcana" skill with "Forbidden Knowledge" (seeing as identifying magic items is no longer going to be a big deal), or maybe the "Religion" skill (already a bit crap). 10) Getting the drop on someone. This is the natural extension of your facing rules, and if you're doing them this seems to follow well enough. Good luck. Personally if I wanted to do Lovecraftian horror I'd use something other than D&D but let us know how it goes. |
| #6bone_nagaMay 22, 2009 11:17:06 | First off, thank you everyone for the constructive posts here.2. how long does insanity last? at a first glance seems like fun. permanent insanity might be a problem later on. although it also may prove deadly in difficult encounters, as healing might be limited. worth a try at a first glance. 2. Temporary insanity is just like dying. Your insane until you either recover from a 20, get healed, or fail 3 saves and go permanently insane. Permanently insane is...well...permanent...just like death. There will be a ritual similar to raise dead to restore sanity. 3. That's a very good point and I am concerned about it. Anyone have another suggestion to prevent them from spamming all dailies in what could be their only encounter for the day without punishing some classes over others? What if I allow them to recharge a single daily of their choice after each extended rest? Would that work better? 5. Given the point you made I'll probably remove #3. 1) Facing. 1) You know, that issue has actually never come up before. I guess I'll just make it unlimited facing changes, and moving any direction but forward is treated as difficult terrain. 2) I might have to adjust some encounters but overall I don't foresee too much trouble with monsters. 4) Exactly, it's just a fluff change. I'm not actually banning or changing any arcane classes. 7) Good point. I'm thinking of either letting them choose at the end of each extended rest whether they want to keep their attack power or temporarily slot it with a utility, or maybe just let it be an "on the fly" choice where they can expend an attack power to activate a utility power instead. Thoughts? 9) It will be available to all classes. I'm debating whether or not to replace Arcana as you suggested, but I'm not sure yet. |
| #7bone_nagaMay 22, 2009 11:19:08 | If your interested, I've got some homebrew taint rules written up that I feel capture some of the feel of lovecraftian horror pretty well, along with tainted feats and tainted paragon paths. Interested? Absolutely! Please post them. I was using Taint rules from Darkness & Dread in 3e, and the warlock really loved the rules until her taint got too high and she lost control of her character. She didn't really like that, and we've stopped using them since. I'd be really interested in seeing a 4e system, though. |
| #8bone_nagaMay 22, 2009 11:31:44 | I personally would like to see sanity developed a bit more. I would have SP derived from Wisdom in the same way HP is derived from Constitution. [on a side note the amount of HP gained fits nicely in line with the amount of SP you would want gained for a Cthuhlu style game (Spell caster all get less, divine casters get a little more, melee gets the most, except those who kill people often)]. Yes, I forgot to mention it, but SP will use WIS instead of CON. I thought about the permanent SP loss, but that seems like it might be a bit much. I think there's already a good threat to them going insane (especially since the mere sight of some monsters, like demons, dragons, and abberants can deal SP damage). I am considering not having it refresh each night, but just like my idea for the dailies is seems to punish some characters disproportionately compared to others. While critical hit charts are fun if you roll that 20, they suck so hard if you are hit by a critical hit. Point taken, but if my group likes them I'll keep it going. I'm going to ask them again before we get started if they really want to keep the lethal crit chart or it they'd prefer temporary effects that they can always recover from. This shouldn't be a big deal, mostly because most utility powers are really combat powers with a funny name. There are a few that are useful out of combat, and I intend to introduce some more. I'm going to steal some an idea from something else I read that created utility powers that anyone could take. Each utility was tied to a certain skill, and you had to be trained in that skill to take the utility power, so I'm hoping to have some valid noncombat options for this rule. Big nerf to humans. Good point. Not sure exactly what I'll do for this one. Maybe I'll just nix this rule. I'd make it a feat instead of a skill, just to keep it from being rolled all the time by the one guy who is never hit in combat. What if I make the skill trained only? |
| #9lady_ishtarMay 22, 2009 16:00:10 | as far as giving out extra at-wills nerfing humans, not sure it is an issue. i give all my players a third at-will (so humans get 4) and i still have 2 humans in the group. neither have complained. as for daily power recovery, regaining one per extended rest should work out better than healing surge cost. |
| #10johnthedm7000May 22, 2009 16:40:22 | The rules themselves are quite long (a total of 20-odd pages) perhaps if you could give me an email address I could email them to you. |
| #11ff6shadowMay 22, 2009 19:36:34 | If your are worried about the dailies because you're only having 1 fight in a day, then make that fight harder to compensate. If I were planning, and a fight would likely be the only fight of the day, it's going to be a harder encounter than the standard. |
| #12CriticalBastardMay 22, 2009 20:00:16 | 2) Psychic damage reduces SP instead of HP. This drastically reduces the power of psychic damage for reasons already mentioned (not shared damage pool). I would have psychic attacks damage SP and HP, that way they will see more use and properly spice up your campaign. 3) Daily Powers. I think it would be less bookkeeping to place a limit on daily attack powers per encounter. Maybe one daily attack power per encounter, and whenever you spend an action point you can use an additional daily attack power that encounter. 5) More lethal combat. Just an added touch to make combat a little more lethal to both sides, but not overwhelmingly so. The 1/2 level bonus now applies to damage as well. Seen this before, love it. 8) At-will powers. Characters gain extra at-wills as they level. I haven't decided on which level yet. 10th seems obvious, but I'd like them to have the extra options sooner. As mentioned, Humans have it rough enough. I've seen the suggestion before to give humans +1 racial bonus to a second stat (so +2 to one stat, +1 to second). They will need a little bump balance wise if you're handing out at-wills. Maybe humans gain a free 1st level encounter power when others are getting free at-wills? |
| #13gregt_314May 22, 2009 20:51:36 | I think the other problem with extra at-wills is that most characters won't use extra at-wills. Certainly in the PHB each build only has two at-wills that are at all useful to it; the Power books don't hugely improve on this situation. The melee cleric I play (on those rare occasions I play rather than DM) for example only has two at-wills currently printed that it can use; being able to take more at-wills from the same class won't help him because he'll still just be using Priest's Shield and Righteous Brand. There's nothing that would tempt him to exchange his +6STR-plus-magic-weapon melee attacks for a +2WIS-plus-non-magic-implement ranged. |
| #14bone_nagaMay 22, 2009 21:07:02 | This drastically reduces the power of psychic damage for reasons already mentioned (not shared damage pool). I would have psychic attacks damage SP and HP, that way they will see more use and properly spice up your campaign. Even though psychic damage seems a little weaker at first, I've already been playtesting these rules and they seem ok. The PCs already lose SP from other means, traumatic sights, otherworldly monsters, etc. So far I've had both PCs and monsters go insane. If it damages both HP and SP, I feel like it would make it too powerful. As for humans, I don't want to play around with the races too much, and since I'm getting mixed reviews on this, I'm going to hold off on it for the time being. I'll start them out with the usual allotment, and after they've played out a level or two I'll see what they think (I could ask a couple of them now, but theres some new players and I want their input too). |
| #15bone_nagaMay 22, 2009 21:08:41 | I think it would be less bookkeeping to place a limit on daily attack powers per encounter. Maybe one daily attack power per encounter, and whenever you spend an action point you can use an additional daily attack power that encounter. And I like this idea. |
| #16CriticalBastardMay 23, 2009 9:51:39 | Even though psychic damage seems a little weaker at first, I've already been playtesting these rules and they seem ok. The PCs already lose SP from other means, traumatic sights, otherworldly monsters, etc. So far I've had both PCs and monsters go insane. If it damages both HP and SP, I feel like it would make it too powerful. If that's the case, you must be running one crazy campaign (bad pun intended)! As for humans, I don't want to play around with the races too much, and since I'm getting mixed reviews on this, I'm going to hold off on it for the time being. I'll start them out with the usual allotment, and after they've played out a level or two I'll see what they think (I could ask a couple of them now, but theres some new players and I want their input too). You will not think humans are weak early, because At-Wills start out great and everyone starts out being feat hungry. However, by level about level 7 to 13 your characters will start filling out with feats and powers and that extra At-Will and feat will be greatly overshadowed by almost all racial powers (not to mention the +2 to a secondary stat). Also most classes don't need to go beyond 3 at-wills (in fact, some can't even use beyond 2), so if you give an extra at-will across the board, the humans will gain a 4th at-will they probably hardly need. Even if you assume all At-Wills will be used equally (which is far from true), then you are diminishing the Human advantage mathematically. Humans have 3/2 the At-Wills of other, whereas if you hand one out, humans have 4/3 the At-Wills of others. It reduces the meaning of their primary racial by 17% (+50% at-wills versus +33%). So please throw your human brothers and sisters a bone! It doesn't have to be a big bone. Maybe when you give out an extra At-Will, humans have a choice to 1) Gain all At-Wills for their class, 2) take an extra feat instead. |
| #17bone_nagaMay 23, 2009 10:26:40 | If that's the case, you must be running one crazy campaign (bad pun intended)! You have no idea. Let me put it this way, one character killed several children, and was honestly confused as to why she lost sanity for it. You will not think humans are weak early, because At-Wills start out great and everyone starts out being feat hungry. However, by level about level 7 to 13 your characters will start filling out with feats and powers and that extra At-Will and feat will be greatly overshadowed by almost all racial powers (not to mention the +2 to a secondary stat). That's very good information. Thanks for the input. |
| #18bone_nagaJun 04, 2009 20:28:29 | I let this thread die for a while, but I've had a new idea that I'm going to post here just to keep it with the rest of my rules. As some people pointed out, having psychic damage target a different pool than physical damage changes the usefulness of some attacks. Now for the PCs, it works out fine, because they lose sanity from other sources as well (seeing horrific abominations, stumbling across mass graves, reading forbidden tomes, etc). It doesn't work out as well with the monsters, however. Before, I only had two players, and the encounters were scaled accordingly. Now I have a much larger group, and so if they're fighting the BBEG and 5 players are hitting HP, but 1 player is targeting SP, that player isn't really contributing. Since 4e allows a lot more abstractions for NPCs and monsters anyway, I decided I would have psychic damage target SP for the PCs like I've been doing (again, they have other sources to lose sanity from). However, since monsters aren't likely to lose SP for RP reasons, and I don't want to make any player less useful, psychic attacks against monsters still do HP damage as normal. Whatever attack drops the monster to 0 HP (physical or psychic damage) will determine whether it dies or goes insane. I thought about applying this to PCs as well, but then I think it loses some of the flavor, and I don't like the idea of dealing HP damage for spotting a lovecraftian horror, or reading a book of forbidden knowledge. However, I am open to suggestions on this aspect, if anyone thinks they can come up with a better solution. On a side note, I decided to drop the critical hit charts. 4e got rid of SoDs and after talking to the new group, we decided there was no need to resurrect them in an altered form. |