De-Suckifying Potions - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

De-Suckifying Potions

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
tequila_sunrise
Jan 23, 2009 21:44:46 Okay, we all know it: potions suck for everyone except hemophiliac wizards. So here's an idea: let's just delete the line in each potion entry that reads "Instead of the HP you would normally regain, you regain X amount instead."

Thoughts?

TS
#2
aluman
Jan 23, 2009 22:21:34
Okay, we all know it: potions suck for everyone except hemophiliac wizards. So here's an idea: let's just delete the line in each potion entry that reads "Instead of the HP you would normally regain, you regain X amount instead."

Thoughts?

TS

My warden and fighter uses potions regularly, a minor action to use means the HP gain is worth it, as I can usually do two a round. As far as balance goes, it moves clerics and warlords away from careful decision of when to use *word, as a potion can stablize as much as they can almost. So they can save the exta +Xd6 for when its really needed.
#3
Scottomir
Jan 24, 2009 10:21:58 Like your group, my group also has found healing potions to be generally useless. (In my group, even the wizard didn't want to use them!) The other week, I started a somewhat lively debate on this board about how to de-suckify healing potions...and it provoked surprisingly strong disagreements.

In the end, I went with a suggestion just to invent more "degrees" of healing potions so that characters aren't ever stucking using "gain 10 hp" potions when their healing surge value is up to 17. There are two glaring gaps in the healing potions in the WOTC book (levels 5-10 and 15-20). So here's what we've been using, and it's been working so far...

POTION OF GREATER HEALING (Level 10)
Potion 500 gp
Power (Consumable, Healing): Minor Action. Drink this potion and spend a healing surge. Instead of the hit points you would normally regain, you regain 15 hit points—or 20 hit points if you’re bloodied and have not already drunk any potion with the healing keyword yet in this encounter.

POTION OF MAJOR HEALING (Level 20)
Potion 5,000 gp
Power (Consumable, Healing): Minor Action. Drink this potion and spend a healing surge. Instead of the hit points you would normally regain, you regain 30 hit points—or 40 hit points if you’re bloodied and have not already drunk any potion with the healing keyword yet in this encounter.
#4
Rustmonster
Jan 24, 2009 14:06:28 Doesn't the level one potion heal 10 HP? That only stops being useful after you hit 40HP, so it's still good for a bit, right? As well, it doesn't take Second Wind. They really don't seem that bad to me.
#5
aluman
Jan 24, 2009 20:45:02
Doesn't the level one potion heal 10 HP? That only stops being useful after you hit 40HP, so it's still good for a bit, right? As well, it doesn't take Second Wind. They really don't seem that bad to me.

This. It doesn't take second wind or one of a limited number of powers from the healer.
#6
tequila_sunrise
Jan 25, 2009 12:13:05 It'd odd that some players seem to completely ignore potions while others hoard them. In the paragon level campaign I just started, three out of four players didn't spend a copper on potions, while the fourth bought a dozen Potions of Healing to begin the game with. I'm running this idea by them to see what they think.

TS

I'm predisposed to ignore consumables of any kind, so that might have something to do with this whole issue.
#7
aluman
Jan 25, 2009 16:54:48 Most consumables I ignore as the benefits are outweighed by cost, I tend to horde two sources of consumables. The one that grants blindsight and healing apprati (Including special food).

The first as its strictly better than having darkvision, and the second because it allows my defenders to access/use Healing surges without the leaders focusing just on me.
#8
vaalingrade_ashland_02
Jan 25, 2009 17:01:57 Making them free surges in a bottle makes the Leader heals way less useful.
#9
CWestHawk
Jan 25, 2009 17:44:16 In order to de-suckify potions, they would have to actually suck in the first place. Just my opinion.
#10
Chandrak
Jan 26, 2009 0:39:22 I wouldn't say that healing potions really suck a lot; they're actually pretty useful. What the problem is is that at higher levels, they become less effective, since the monsters can deal more damage in a single hit than the potion provides. Price gets to be a pain as well at high levels.

On the other hand, if you allow players to administer healing potions to unconscious allies, even a 10hp heal can save a character's life who is close to -bloodied.

We nearly had a TPK in our last fight, because the monsters where getting crazy lucky rolls with recharging their encounter powers. If people had had potions on them, things would have gone a lot differently.
#11
Dreamstryder
Jan 26, 2009 1:53:51 The designers I think (rightly) chose to design 4e characters that didn't need a pony-load of glowing gifts to survive the mathematics of adventuring (hp+d20 rolls), and 4e gave us healing surges & +1/2 level, among other things. Healing potions, once hoarded for survival (& this DM's most common gift) became less prominent. I rather enjoy stocking chests with something else in 4e.

Here's an idea to recharge the healing potion's handiness (but not to reinstate it as a staple in all of the PCs' meals): Standard: Drink to restore one expended healing surge (you don't heal or use any surges by doing this). You may use only one healing potion per day. Try "per encounter" if your PCs have a habit of burning thru multiple surges every short rest. You'll still need the Heal skill or other power to use them beyond Second Wind, and you might find you use these outside battles more often.
#12
tequila_sunrise
Jan 26, 2009 11:32:36 Well none of my players think that healing potions suck, so I'm keeping them by RAW.

TS
#13
aluman
Jan 26, 2009 19:14:08
On the other hand, if you allow players to administer healing potions to unconscious allies, even a 10hp heal can save a character's life who is close to -bloodied.

We nearly had a TPK in our last fight, because the monsters where getting crazy lucky rolls with recharging their encounter powers. If people had had potions on them, things would have gone a lot differently.

Yeah it would ahve, as 10 HP of healing moves you from -(1hp above bloodied) to 10hp.
#14
aluman
Jan 26, 2009 19:18:12
Well none of my players think that healing potions suck, so I'm keeping them by RAW.

TS

I would say TS, I commend you for being willing to introduce so many changes to your game to keep the game fun for your players.
#15
alchemyprime
Jan 28, 2009 0:02:59 My group knows that with Healing 'wafers' (not otions in my campaigns since I have Potion + Potion = Random Crap that Can Kill You Or Make You God houserule) I changed them.

Leaders giving a Healing Wafer may heal their bonus healing on it (ie. the Xd6 from their Healing Word type abilities) instead of the base at the Leader's descrepincy.

We also have a feat I made that lets you heal "The base healing or your surge value -1 for wafers, whichever is higher, a number of times equal to your Con modifer." The rogue took that.

My players have it down and the warlord, the rogue and the telepath (psionic leader form the boards) hoard healing wafers now.

My two cp.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tequila_sunrise Jan 23, 2009 21:44:46	Okay, we all know it: potions suck for everyone except hemophiliac wizards. So here's an idea: let's just delete the line in each potion entry that reads "Instead of the HP you would normally regain, you regain X amount instead." Thoughts? TS
#2 aluman Jan 23, 2009 22:21:34	Okay, we all know it: potions suck for everyone except hemophiliac wizards. So here's an idea: let's just delete the line in each potion entry that reads "Instead of the HP you would normally regain, you regain X amount instead." Thoughts? TS My warden and fighter uses potions regularly, a minor action to use means the HP gain is worth it, as I can usually do two a round. As far as balance goes, it moves clerics and warlords away from careful decision of when to use *word, as a potion can stablize as much as they can almost. So they can save the exta +Xd6 for when its really needed.
#3 Scottomir Jan 24, 2009 10:21:58	Like your group, my group also has found healing potions to be generally useless. (In my group, even the wizard didn't want to use them!) The other week, I started a somewhat lively debate on this board about how to de-suckify healing potions...and it provoked surprisingly strong disagreements. In the end, I went with a suggestion just to invent more "degrees" of healing potions so that characters aren't ever stucking using "gain 10 hp" potions when their healing surge value is up to 17. There are two glaring gaps in the healing potions in the WOTC book (levels 5-10 and 15-20). So here's what we've been using, and it's been working so far... POTION OF GREATER HEALING (Level 10) Potion 500 gp Power (Consumable, Healing): Minor Action. Drink this potion and spend a healing surge. Instead of the hit points you would normally regain, you regain 15 hit points—or 20 hit points if you’re bloodied and have not already drunk any potion with the healing keyword yet in this encounter. POTION OF MAJOR HEALING (Level 20) Potion 5,000 gp Power (Consumable, Healing): Minor Action. Drink this potion and spend a healing surge. Instead of the hit points you would normally regain, you regain 30 hit points—or 40 hit points if you’re bloodied and have not already drunk any potion with the healing keyword yet in this encounter.
#4 Rustmonster Jan 24, 2009 14:06:28	Doesn't the level one potion heal 10 HP? That only stops being useful after you hit 40HP, so it's still good for a bit, right? As well, it doesn't take Second Wind. They really don't seem that bad to me.
#5 aluman Jan 24, 2009 20:45:02	Doesn't the level one potion heal 10 HP? That only stops being useful after you hit 40HP, so it's still good for a bit, right? As well, it doesn't take Second Wind. They really don't seem that bad to me. This. It doesn't take second wind or one of a limited number of powers from the healer.
#6 tequila_sunrise Jan 25, 2009 12:13:05	It'd odd that some players seem to completely ignore potions while others hoard them. In the paragon level campaign I just started, three out of four players didn't spend a copper on potions, while the fourth bought a dozen Potions of Healing to begin the game with. I'm running this idea by them to see what they think. TS I'm predisposed to ignore consumables of any kind, so that might have something to do with this whole issue.
#7 aluman Jan 25, 2009 16:54:48	Most consumables I ignore as the benefits are outweighed by cost, I tend to horde two sources of consumables. The one that grants blindsight and healing apprati (Including special food). The first as its strictly better than having darkvision, and the second because it allows my defenders to access/use Healing surges without the leaders focusing just on me.
#8 vaalingrade_ashland_02 Jan 25, 2009 17:01:57	Making them free surges in a bottle makes the Leader heals way less useful.
#9 CWestHawk Jan 25, 2009 17:44:16	In order to de-suckify potions, they would have to actually suck in the first place. Just my opinion.
#10 Chandrak Jan 26, 2009 0:39:22	I wouldn't say that healing potions really suck a lot; they're actually pretty useful. What the problem is is that at higher levels, they become less effective, since the monsters can deal more damage in a single hit than the potion provides. Price gets to be a pain as well at high levels. On the other hand, if you allow players to administer healing potions to unconscious allies, even a 10hp heal can save a character's life who is close to -bloodied. We nearly had a TPK in our last fight, because the monsters where getting crazy lucky rolls with recharging their encounter powers. If people had had potions on them, things would have gone a lot differently.
#11 Dreamstryder Jan 26, 2009 1:53:51	The designers I think (rightly) chose to design 4e characters that didn't need a pony-load of glowing gifts to survive the mathematics of adventuring (hp+d20 rolls), and 4e gave us healing surges & +1/2 level, among other things. Healing potions, once hoarded for survival (& this DM's most common gift) became less prominent. I rather enjoy stocking chests with something else in 4e. Here's an idea to recharge the healing potion's handiness (but not to reinstate it as a staple in all of the PCs' meals): Standard: Drink to restore one expended healing surge (you don't heal or use any surges by doing this). You may use only one healing potion per day. Try "per encounter" if your PCs have a habit of burning thru multiple surges every short rest. You'll still need the Heal skill or other power to use them beyond Second Wind, and you might find you use these outside battles more often.
#12 tequila_sunrise Jan 26, 2009 11:32:36	Well none of my players think that healing potions suck, so I'm keeping them by RAW. TS
#13 aluman Jan 26, 2009 19:14:08	On the other hand, if you allow players to administer healing potions to unconscious allies, even a 10hp heal can save a character's life who is close to -bloodied. We nearly had a TPK in our last fight, because the monsters where getting crazy lucky rolls with recharging their encounter powers. If people had had potions on them, things would have gone a lot differently. Yeah it would ahve, as 10 HP of healing moves you from -(1hp above bloodied) to 10hp.
#14 aluman Jan 26, 2009 19:18:12	Well none of my players think that healing potions suck, so I'm keeping them by RAW. TS I would say TS, I commend you for being willing to introduce so many changes to your game to keep the game fun for your players.
#15 alchemyprime Jan 28, 2009 0:02:59	My group knows that with Healing 'wafers' (not otions in my campaigns since I have Potion + Potion = Random Crap that Can Kill You Or Make You God houserule) I changed them. Leaders giving a Healing Wafer may heal their bonus healing on it (ie. the Xd6 from their Healing Word type abilities) instead of the base at the Leader's descrepincy. We also have a feat I made that lets you heal "The base healing or your surge value -1 for wafers, whichever is higher, a number of times equal to your Con modifer." The rogue took that. My players have it down and the warlord, the rogue and the telepath (psionic leader form the boards) hoard healing wafers now. My two cp.