Deadly Skill Challenges - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Deadly Skill Challenges

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
misterfido_dup
Sep 04, 2008 11:16:10 I wanted to hear people's opinions on skill challenges which CAN kill you, and the exact mechanics by which they work, and how well they mesh with 4E.

I've been working on a lovingly crafted Tomb of Horrors 4E update (not updated from the 3.5 PDF, but from the actual original Tomb of Horrors), tweaking everything so that it feels the same, but runs as smoothly and entertainingly as a modern, refined 4E dungeon crawl does. Anyway, one problem I ran into is the number of death traps--which are basically the antithesis of 4E's trap system, in that they both are immediately lethal, AND they are not paired with monsters/teams of simultaneously functioning traps.

Take the lava pit trap. You know the one I mean--walk down a hallway, and SPLASH you die (a little more complicated than that, but bear with me). Instead of an obscure skill check, or doing the "Count to 15" thing written in the original module, I have a skill challenge involving climbing out of the pit before it completely swings open, scrambling over each other, jabbing climbing tools into the edges of the pit, etc.

Success: The party survives the encounter, and earns an appropriate amount of experience.
Failure: Any party members who contributed a failure to the encounter fall into the pit, and die (though this occurs at the end of the encounter--they may still participate up until the final failure).

What do you guys think? It's a little harsh for a skill challenge, but considering I use the errata (easier) DCs for skill checks, killing anyone who fails their check and contributes to the COMPLETE failure of the challenge (successful encounters don't kill them, even if they earned it 2 failures) deserves death =P.

The pros I can see of this scenario is that, no matter what happens, a 5-PC party cannot be killed in one death trap. Someone _ALWAYS_ gets out of the collapsing tunnel, someone ALWAYS climbs to the top of the lava pit... and this fits with 4E's general theme of making killing any character, much less killing ALL characters, extremely difficult.

The cons is that it doesn't fit with the Tomb's original ability to kill everyone who dares enter it mercilessly. And it might be an unfair punishment for a SKILL challenge--especially since skll challenges are normally balanced to provide only minor punishment on a failure, such as making an encounter more difficult or not granting treasure.

Well? Is it a good comprimise? Should the challenge kill EVERYONE in the party, or only the last person to make a failure? Should I not use skill challenges? I'd love to hear from everyone.
#2
Armisael
Sep 04, 2008 12:46:23 That goes against the very design philosophy of skill challenges. I wouldn't do it.
#3
aakthas
Sep 04, 2008 13:11:12 I don't think that I would have a skill challenge that could kill the party (or even individual characters) automatically, at the very least without the understanding (in my own head, if not the players) that the skill challenge itself was significantly overlevelled for the party (at least 5 levels higher, perhaps more.)

What I would do is utilize the mechanic buried in the system, and cause either a specific amount of damage (20, 5d10, whatever) for failing a skill check, which is common to traps, and failing enough of those will kill somebody, or do healing surges of damage, which is implied in the system as a good way to abstract damage that occurred during the skill challenge.

That being said, a first level party having to put up with the DC 40 skill checks that should accompany this 20th level challenge...they will all die. An epic level party, not so much. They will be mostly OK. Given that they can likely fly, teleport, and do backflips up the side of a mountain, a bunch of lava isn't as much of an impediment to them anyway.

Just my two cents.
#4
matthewswift
Sep 04, 2008 14:28:26 Treat it like a trap that deals massive damage. :D

Now compare that to your skill challenge theory.

Which is more deadly?

It's a trap right? They've already got a mechanic for this...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 misterfido_dup Sep 04, 2008 11:16:10	I wanted to hear people's opinions on skill challenges which CAN kill you, and the exact mechanics by which they work, and how well they mesh with 4E. I've been working on a lovingly crafted Tomb of Horrors 4E update (not updated from the 3.5 PDF, but from the actual original Tomb of Horrors), tweaking everything so that it feels the same, but runs as smoothly and entertainingly as a modern, refined 4E dungeon crawl does. Anyway, one problem I ran into is the number of death traps--which are basically the antithesis of 4E's trap system, in that they both are immediately lethal, AND they are not paired with monsters/teams of simultaneously functioning traps. Take the lava pit trap. You know the one I mean--walk down a hallway, and SPLASH you die (a little more complicated than that, but bear with me). Instead of an obscure skill check, or doing the "Count to 15" thing written in the original module, I have a skill challenge involving climbing out of the pit before it completely swings open, scrambling over each other, jabbing climbing tools into the edges of the pit, etc. Success: The party survives the encounter, and earns an appropriate amount of experience. Failure: Any party members who contributed a failure to the encounter fall into the pit, and die (though this occurs at the end of the encounter--they may still participate up until the final failure). What do you guys think? It's a little harsh for a skill challenge, but considering I use the errata (easier) DCs for skill checks, killing anyone who fails their check and contributes to the COMPLETE failure of the challenge (successful encounters don't kill them, even if they earned it 2 failures) deserves death =P. The pros I can see of this scenario is that, no matter what happens, a 5-PC party cannot be killed in one death trap. Someone _ALWAYS_ gets out of the collapsing tunnel, someone ALWAYS climbs to the top of the lava pit... and this fits with 4E's general theme of making killing any character, much less killing ALL characters, extremely difficult. The cons is that it doesn't fit with the Tomb's original ability to kill everyone who dares enter it mercilessly. And it might be an unfair punishment for a SKILL challenge--especially since skll challenges are normally balanced to provide only minor punishment on a failure, such as making an encounter more difficult or not granting treasure. Well? Is it a good comprimise? Should the challenge kill EVERYONE in the party, or only the last person to make a failure? Should I not use skill challenges? I'd love to hear from everyone.
#2 Armisael Sep 04, 2008 12:46:23	That goes against the very design philosophy of skill challenges. I wouldn't do it.
#3 aakthas Sep 04, 2008 13:11:12	I don't think that I would have a skill challenge that could kill the party (or even individual characters) automatically, at the very least without the understanding (in my own head, if not the players) that the skill challenge itself was significantly overlevelled for the party (at least 5 levels higher, perhaps more.) What I would do is utilize the mechanic buried in the system, and cause either a specific amount of damage (20, 5d10, whatever) for failing a skill check, which is common to traps, and failing enough of those will kill somebody, or do healing surges of damage, which is implied in the system as a good way to abstract damage that occurred during the skill challenge. That being said, a first level party having to put up with the DC 40 skill checks that should accompany this 20th level challenge...they will all die. An epic level party, not so much. They will be mostly OK. Given that they can likely fly, teleport, and do backflips up the side of a mountain, a bunch of lava isn't as much of an impediment to them anyway. Just my two cents.
#4 matthewswift Sep 04, 2008 14:28:26	Treat it like a trap that deals massive damage. :D Now compare that to your skill challenge theory. Which is more deadly? It's a trap right? They've already got a mechanic for this...