These are all rules to generally make the fear of losing healing surges a little worse and make the occurrence of death a little more random but still not have the player feeling cheated. For the most part, these rules are here to make the threat of death feel more progressive as the party gets worn down throughout an adventure. I've taken notes from a lot of my favorite video games that encourage team work and take different spins beyond just dying when your health reaches zero.
Fatality
If you deal damage greater than the target's bloodied value, they must make a death save or die instantaneously. This rule does not apply to players, Elite, or Solo enemies.
A Coup De Grace can still kill you if it deals more than your bloodied value.
Why this rule? Helps speed up combat considerably. Back in 3rd Edition, there was a rule for Massive Damage being able to kill a target instantaneously, but the math on the value needed was very fuzzy. I would never want to have a rule like this apply to the players because it would make me as the DM not want to hit them with big vicious attacks.
Dying
While below 0 Hit Points, you make a Death Save at the end of each round. If you fail three Death Saves, you die. Extra Saving Throws granted to you that are not successful do not count as failures against this limit.
At negative hit points equal to your Bloodied value, you die instantly.
Any healing you receive while at negative hit points, you are treated as if you were at 0 Hit Points for determining the total amount you are healed.
When your Hit Points return to above 0 Hit Points, your are no longer Dying.
Why this rule? This is actually a little friendlier than the regular 4th Edition rules for such an occurrence. I throw in a lot more terrible detriments to the player for becoming worn out by the loss of healing surges, so making this rule a little friendlier helps balance things out a bit. I think this is easier to understand than the rules they've got considering the use of saving throws. Overall, it makes getting the chance to make a saving throw almost as valuable as granting that ally a healing surge.
The part about extra saving throws not counting against the three death saves you're allowed is so that a player won't want to have aid held back because being aided and failing could make them die more quickly. It wouldn't make any sense for aid to kill someone faster.
Desperate
You do not fall unconscious while below 0 Hit Points. You fall prone and are considered helpless. You may make a basic attack with a -2 penalty as a standard action and move one space as a movement action.
If a target knocks you below negative hit points equal to 1/4 your maximum Hit Points, you fall unconscious.
When your Hit Points return to above 0 Hit Points, your are no longer Desperate.
Why this rule? I never wanted to knock players to negative hit points because they just sit around bored while a friend tries to pick them back up. This still keeps them in the fight, even if its just barely so. Left4Dead (being able to attack while down) and Gears of War 2 (being able to move while down) inspired this directly.
System Shock
When you return from 0 Hit Points, you cannot spend an action point (save ends). Additionally, you take a -1 penalty to all of your defenses, your attack rolls, your ability checks, and your skill checks. Second Wind removes this effect instantly. You can make a saving throw against this effect whenever you are given a healing surge.
Why this rule? Makes Second Wind's name a little more literal and a more valuable power as well. I also felt that the player shouldn't come back from the verge of death feeling totally okay.
Fatigue
Occurs when your total number of Healing Surges is below half of your maximum and you become Bloodied. Enemies gain a +1 Critical Hit chance against you. Critical Hits automatically kill you if you are below 0 Hit Points.
NOTE: Increased Critical Hit chance means that they can get a Critical Hit on an attack roll with a lower number than what they usually need. If a character gets a Critical Hit on 19-20 and they then gain a +1 to their Critical Hit chance, they now need 18-20 to cause a Critical Hit against you.
Why this rule? The healing surge system is like a scar system. You may recover hit points, but you still feel the damage you took earlier. Effects like this make the overall damage you take during an entire adventure matter beyond the point when you completely run out of healing surges. I want the players to feel gradually worn down by their injuries. I also feel that Critical Hits should play an important role when characters are in this bad of shape. The original idea of a Critical Hit wasn't just some random variable, it was that you managed to hit the target in a vulnerable spot like the head and had a chance of instantly killing them.
Exhaustion
Occurs when you have no remaining Healing Surges and you become Bloodied. Enemies gain a +3 Critical Hit chance against you. Critical Hits automatically kill you while you are Bloodied or worse. While you are below 0 Hit Points and you are hit with a damage dealing power, you roll a Death Save. If you fail this Death Save against the attack, you die instantly.
Why this rule? I like the idea being Bloodied becoming this state of true desperation. If you are this messed up, the most likely scenario is that you've been acting incredibly reckless.
Last Stand
Occurs when you fall below 0 Hit Points during three different encounters. Every encounter after that, you suffer from Last Stand. Whenever you fall below 0 Hit Points, you take ongoing damage 5 from your bleeding injuries. You gain Vulnerability 5 against the first attack made against you each round. You take -2 penalty to Death Saves.
Why this rule? Inspired by Left4Dead's three strikes rule where you die instantly the 4th time you are downed. In 2nd Edition, we had a house rule of bleed damage while at negative hit points. Bringing that in was partially nostalgia and the fact that I felt like this makes the player's wounds feel as if their harder to repair. I didn't just want to make it where they die instantly at 0 Hit Points in this state because I still want to leave a chance for the player to get incredibly lucky and stay alive.
Adrenaline Surge
If you drop the target who dealt the damage that caused you to fall below 0 Hit Points and you are Desperate, you may immediately spend a healing surge or use Second Wind. You gain an additional action point that you can use until the end of your next turn.
Why this rule? Inspired by Borderlands. If you manage to get revenge against the enemy that downed you with just a basic attack, you deserve a prize. This turns a pretty inspiring moment into one you'll be talking about well after the adventure is over.
Conclusion
So! What do you think?
So! What do you think?
And if any of these houserules I've created seem flawed, incoherent, or could be better just speak up.
If you deal damage greater than the target's bloodied value, they must make a death save or die instantaneously. This rule does not apply to players, Elite, or Solo enemies.A Coup De Grace can still kill you if it deals more than your bloodied value.
Why this rule? Helps speed up combat considerably. Back in 3rd Edition, there was a rule for Massive Damage being able to kill a target instantaneously, but the math on the value needed was very fuzzy. I would never want to have a rule like this apply to the players because it would make me as the DM not want to hit them with big vicious attacks.
as this rule does not apply to PCs, it doesn't "speed up combat". Speeding up combat shoudn't change the changes of victory, while this rule does. (I mean, for example, if I want faster combats, I don't start saying that my players deal tripple damage, even if that would descrease the time spend on combat, right?)
Other then that ... I like my dyings to be quite ... dangerous. players should try and remain above 0 hp at all times. I don't want them to end up with a "meh, I'm only dying"-feeling
as this rule does not apply to PCs, it doesn't "speed up combat". Speeding up combat shoudn't change the changes of victory, while this rule does. (I mean, for example, if I want faster combats, I don't start saying that my players deal tripple damage, even if that would descrease the time spend on combat, right?)
I dunno. If someone goes from full health to bloodied in a single hit, that's pretty significant. I like the imagery of it. But then again, I like 30 page crit tables, so I may be biased.
Otherwise, I agree. Hitting 0 hp SHOULD take them out of the game and bore them. Why? It's just one more incentive NOT to get knocked out.
Eventually the wolf ran away from me, but when i moved to finally get between the cleric and the big bad, the wolf came charging back and flanked me. Then the big bad double crited against me.. since he was allowed to use a billion AP in an encounter.
I made this after my girlfriend told me about Dragon Age. Used it last session. Our mind flayer cleric of Pelor sustained a head injury and the druid botched the heal check. We don't do botch rules all the time, but the DM thought it appropriate for this one. In the end, the mind flayer lost her psionic abilities (telepathy and her racial mind blast) until she can get checked out by an actual doctor.
Now they'll have to find someone who actually knows mind flayer physiology. Should lead to seedy characters...
If you deal damage greater than the target's bloodied value, they must make a death save or die instantaneously. This rule does not apply to players, Elite, or Solo enemies.A Coup De Grace can still kill you if it deals more than your bloodied value.
Why this rule? Helps speed up combat considerably. Back in 3rd Edition, there was a rule for Massive Damage being able to kill a target instantaneously, but the math on the value needed was very fuzzy. I would never want to have a rule like this apply to the players because it would make me as the DM not want to hit them with big vicious attacks.
as this rule does not apply to PCs, it doesn't "speed up combat". Speeding up combat shoudn't change the changes of victory, while this rule does. (I mean, for example, if I want faster combats, I don't start saying that my players deal tripple damage, even if that would descrease the time spend on combat, right?)
Other then that ... I like my dyings to be quite ... dangerous. players should try and remain above 0 hp at all times. I don't want them to end up with a "meh, I'm only dying"-feeling
I'd like you to elaborate a little better on dying feeling dangerous. Try not to trivialize it in your head as DM. Players get freaked out at falling below 0 Hit Points. You don't want to make death so common place that they don't care about their character or the campaign. That just makes all their effort into character creation feel pointless.
I considered having Massive Damage apply to players, but it would work differently. If they take damage equal to their bloodied value, they would have to make a Death Save or fall to 0 Hit Points instantaneously. It's not instant death, but it does suck. You think that sounds fair?
www.scribd.com/doc/22520567/Grisly-Injur...
I made this after my girlfriend told me about Dragon Age. Used it last session. Our mind flayer cleric of Pelor sustained a head injury and the druid botched the heal check. We don't do botch rules all the time, but the DM thought it appropriate for this one. In the end, the mind flayer lost her psionic abilities (telepathy and her racial mind blast) until she can get checked out by an actual doctor.
Now they'll have to find someone who actually knows mind flayer physiology. Should lead to seedy characters...
I really dig this idea a lot actually. Creates a long-term problem from falling to 0 Hit Points. I think I rather make Arm Injuries have the character make a saving throw to not drop their weapon when they attack or not drop their shield when an enemy aims at their Reflex or AC. I'm not keen on how you've set up Torso Injuries at all. I think you could make something far simpler, like vulnerability 5 against all damage and -2 to all saving throws.
Still, you've got a great idea here and I think I'm going to integrate it into my campaign. Thanks a ton!
I actually created a bunch of Called Shot encounter powers for injuring individual body parts. I was considering making these At-Will and you could only use them once on an individual target each encounter? I could argue that they're encounter powers because of the amount of effort it takes to pull them off.
I'd like you to elaborate a little better on dying feeling dangerous. Try not to trivialize it in your head as DM. Players get freaked out at falling below 0 Hit Points.
as they should. 0 hp is something to be feared.
Heck, in my campaign I kicked out resserection. I'm not a killer GM, so my players don't go down much, but if they do ... they realize that that might be the end for their PC.
I considered having Massive Damage apply to players, but it would work differently. If they take damage equal to their bloodied value, they would have to make a Death Save or fall to 0 Hit Points instantaneously. It's not instant death, but it does suck. You think that sounds fair?
yep
called shot: eye
only -4? you think its that easy to hit an eye of a moving target? (if there is a 50% hit chance, -4 only makes it about 25%)
either way. called shots aren't really my cup of thee (if you miss the eye, how come you don't hit something else on the face...)
House Rule: Players are no longer dying when they are reduced to negative hit points. Instead they are OVERWHELMED (save ends) and automatically fail 1 death saving throw.
Overwhelmed
- You are knocked prone if you are not already.
- You are dazed.
- You cannot use your Second Wind.
- You cannot take any move actions other than to shift 1 square (no standing up).
- You cannot use any powers except at-will attack powers or basic attacks.
Once a player has failed 3 death saving throws, they are BLACK AND WHITE. A "Black and White" character that is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points is slain immediately.
Notes: No more making death saving throws. You simply automatically fail a single one every time you drop. Overwhelmed is a Save Ends effect, so you can use a heal check to give an Overwhelmed character a chance to save out of it. Any other effect that might happen on a death saving throw instead happens on the saving throw against Overwhelmed.
I think this closer mimics the L4D method of "3 strikes and you're on thin ice" (while avoiding unnecessary additional book keeping); it also gives you that "on the ground" feeling of being almost helpless but still able to chip in. It certainly gives a threat to dropping to 0 hit points, and the veritable panic of being "black and white" - slightly worse, because the only way to remove death saving throws and thus the "black and white" condition is to take an extended rest. While this may cause the party to take more extended rests (especially with a "black and white" defender), it's far more of an expendable asset - the defender has 2 failed death saving throws, do we risk the next fight? I'm not sure if this would be more harsh or less harsh on players.
www.scribd.com/doc/22520567/Grisly-Injur...
I made this after my girlfriend told me about Dragon Age. Used it last session. Our mind flayer cleric of Pelor sustained a head injury and the druid botched the heal check. We don't do botch rules all the time, but the DM thought it appropriate for this one. In the end, the mind flayer lost her psionic abilities (telepathy and her racial mind blast) until she can get checked out by an actual doctor.
Now they'll have to find someone who actually knows mind flayer physiology. Should lead to seedy characters...
I really dig this idea a lot actually. Creates a long-term problem from falling to 0 Hit Points. I think I rather make Arm Injuries have the character make a saving throw to not drop their weapon when they attack or not drop their shield when an enemy aims at their Reflex or AC. I'm not keen on how you've set up Torso Injuries at all. I think you could make something far simpler, like vulnerability 5 against all damage and -2 to all saving throws.
Still, you've got a great idea here and I think I'm going to integrate it into my campaign. Thanks a ton!
Regarding the arm thing. They're supposed to take a -2 to attack rolls at the starting stage. But no. I don't mind the saving throw to move and make opportunity attacks, but dropping your weapon? I dunno, the visual of that just doesn't click with me.
Also, torso injury. Haglkjsaslkcnsandjg, no. Torso is already the most feared injury in my game. Vulnerable 5 all? Injuries are meant to penalize players, not make their life a living hell. The -2 to saving throws thing is good though. In that same game I talked about earlier, the wizard got a torso injury (after a PC ran him through and walked off, long story, don't ask). They had to leave the town they were in because some serious shadow magic was going down, but the wizard was bleeding out. Travel wasn't going to be good for him. It made the PCs decision very difficult.
In short, injuries make adventuring dangerous business again.
You're absolutely right on the vulnerable 5 being too much. Maybe a penalty to how much a Healing Surge recovers, like -4 or -2 per tier? This kind of fits in theme with your penalty to Healing Surges, but I think having them bleed out healing surges is a little more than I want. These injuries are essentially randomized, so I want them all to basically be equivalent when it comes to the penalties they bring.
As for Arm Injuries, I think I rather make it to where they only get one or zero opportunity attacks per round than throwing in an additional saving throw to deal with. I mostly didn't like the complexity of it, not the concept. Restricting their opportunity attacks makes plenty of sense to me.
I'd like you to elaborate a little better on dying feeling dangerous. Try not to trivialize it in your head as DM. Players get freaked out at falling below 0 Hit Points.
as they should. 0 hp is something to be feared.
Heck, in my campaign I kicked out resserection. I'm not a killer GM, so my players don't go down much, but if they do ... they realize that that might be the end for their PC.I considered having Massive Damage apply to players, but it would work differently. If they take damage equal to their bloodied value, they would have to make a Death Save or fall to 0 Hit Points instantaneously. It's not instant death, but it does suck. You think that sounds fair?
yepcalled shot: eye
only -4? you think its that easy to hit an eye of a moving target? (if there is a 50% hit chance, -4 only makes it about 25%)
either way. called shots aren't really my cup of thee (if you miss the eye, how come you don't hit something else on the face...)
Kicked out resurrection? Blech. I would never do that. I make resurrection more of something that's up to me as the DM for what happens. Resurrecting an ally can have interesting roleplaying ramifications, especially if you do something more than just "SPELLZ REZ I'M BAK LOL". Have the resurrection go wrong, they come back with a haunting spirit or no soul or part zombie. Just removing resurrection isn't a creative solution at all.
I'm glad you like the new take on Massive Damage for players. I'll integrate it into my campaign.
As for Called Shot: Eye, I assume on any attack that doesn't specify an effect on a miss, you completely do not hit the target...BUT! I do think you have a point. There are plenty of attacks that have effects on a miss, and an eye shot could easily turn into a head shot. So what do you think of it getting a -6 penalty but includes still dealing 1/2 damage on a miss?
While much of what you talk of seems like it adds a layer of book-keeping I try to stay away from (at almost all costs, there is already so much to keep track of in the game x.x) I think the 3-times dead aspect of L4D might have something to it. What about:
House Rule: Players are no longer dying when they are reduced to negative hit points. Instead they are OVERWHELMED (save ends) and automatically fail 1 death saving throw.
Overwhelmed
- You are knocked prone if you are not already.
- You are dazed.
- You cannot use your Second Wind.
- You cannot take any move actions other than to shift 1 square (no standing up).
- You cannot use any powers except at-will attack powers or basic attacks.
Once a player has failed 3 death saving throws, they are BLACK AND WHITE. A "Black and White" character that is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points is slain immediately.
Notes: No more making death saving throws. You simply automatically fail a single one every time you drop. Overwhelmed is a Save Ends effect, so you can use a heal check to give an Overwhelmed character a chance to save out of it. Any other effect that might happen on a death saving throw instead happens on the saving throw against Overwhelmed.
I think this closer mimics the L4D method of "3 strikes and you're on thin ice" (while avoiding unnecessary additional book keeping); it also gives you that "on the ground" feeling of being almost helpless but still able to chip in. It certainly gives a threat to dropping to 0 hit points, and the veritable panic of being "black and white" - slightly worse, because the only way to remove death saving throws and thus the "black and white" condition is to take an extended rest. While this may cause the party to take more extended rests (especially with a "black and white" defender), it's far more of an expendable asset - the defender has 2 failed death saving throws, do we risk the next fight? I'm not sure if this would be more harsh or less harsh on players.
Very, very interesting. You bring up a good point on the book keeping. Removing the need for Death Saves is a cool spin, but might be too revolutionary. There are far too many feats, powers, racial features, etc. that modify death saves in different ways that might be a bit much to have to house-rule to tailor it to the new rules every time. But it also might be worth the work.
A problem with Overwhelmed is something that I tried very deliberately to avoid: At-Will Powers. Plenty of healer classes get at-will powers that can recover hit points, immediately taking them out of negative HP. That's why I kept it to just basic attacks, which can include some at-will powers if they specify it so (like Magic Missile), none of which I have seen to include healing. Shifting also doesn't provoke opportunity attacks, which is why I specified it be a regular movement. It'd be too easy for someone to get an opportunity attack on a target while they are crawling.
Let me also say I like the term "Overwhelmed". I prefer "Last Stand" to the name "Black & White" because it's a little too meta sounding and doesn't fit in the context of D&D.
You might be right on there being a little too much complexity to the death and dying rules I've named. I'll try to simplify them a bit.
You're absolutely right on the vulnerable 5 being too much. Maybe a penalty to how much a Healing Surge recovers, like -4 or -2 per tier? This kind of fits in theme with your penalty to Healing Surges, but I think having them bleed out healing surges is a little more than I want. These injuries are essentially randomized, so I want them all to basically be equivalent when it comes to the penalties they bring.
As for Arm Injuries, I think I rather make it to where they only get one or zero opportunity attacks per round than throwing in an additional saving throw to deal with. I mostly didn't like the complexity of it, not the concept. Restricting their opportunity attacks makes plenty of sense to me.
Up to you, man. It works for my game, make it work for your's.
EDIT: I see that was already mentioned. Well then, let me just voice my support for the idea.
Last stand just seems like it requires too much tracking. Same with Fatigue and Exhaustion. I like the ideas, but there's already so much to keep track of during combat it seems like the sort of thing that could be easily overlooked.
System Shock just seems unnecessary. You have plenty of other rules to discourage taking damage. I could also see this rule causing players to drop more often as they try to hold their Second Winds in reserve to clear the penalties after they get healed. You're also adding another save ends condition, which again I feel might just be adding too much to keep track of.
Desperate and Adrenaline Surge I both like.
Since you asked for house rules, I'll share mine. When a character is dying, I don't track HP. Instead I only track death saves. If a dying character takes damage, it automatically counts as a failed death save. A successful coup de grace counts as 2 failed death saves (although I would not use this in conjunction with your desperate rule, as an attacking character is making a target of himself, whereas a dying character is ignored, so in that case I think 1 save would be punishment enough). My rationale for this is 1) its less bookeeping, especially since the negative HP are irrelevant once the character receives healing anyway, 2) I like gritty, dangerous campaigns, and 3) HP are an abstract concept and not representative of purely physical damage. However, once you are dying, you are no longer parrying, rolling with the blows, etc, and the damage is physical. At that point, a dagger can kill you just as easily as a sword.
I like Fatality. I would actually have it apply to PCs as well, but instead of instant death, it drops you to 0 HP. That way it creates a sense of danger for the PCs, but it doesn't generate the equivalent of a SoD. Monsters, on the other hand, are generally out of the fight once they hit 0 HP anyway, so there's no change there.
EDIT: I see that was already mentioned. Well then, let me just voice my support for the idea.
Last stand just seems like it requires too much tracking. Same with Fatigue and Exhaustion. I like the ideas, but there's already so much to keep track of during combat it seems like the sort of thing that could be easily overlooked.
System Shock just seems unnecessary. You have plenty of other rules to discourage taking damage. I could also see this rule causing players to drop more often as they try to hold their Second Winds in reserve to clear the penalties after they get healed. You're also adding another save ends condition, which again I feel might just be adding too much to keep track of.
Desperate and Adrenaline Surge I both like.
Since you asked for house rules, I'll share mine. When a character is dying, I don't track HP. Instead I only track death saves. If a dying character takes damage, it automatically counts as a failed death save. A successful coup de grace counts as 2 failed death saves (although I would not use this in conjunction with your desperate rule, as an attacking character is making a target of himself, whereas a dying character is ignored, so in that case I think 1 save would be punishment enough). My rationale for this is 1) its less bookeeping, especially since the negative HP are irrelevant once the character receives healing anyway, 2) I like gritty, dangerous campaigns, and 3) HP are an abstract concept and not representative of purely physical damage. However, once you are dying, you are no longer parrying, rolling with the blows, etc, and the damage is physical. At that point, a dagger can kill you just as easily as a sword.
YES! Your rules for no negative HP but only Death Saves makes an incredible amount of sense to me. Having a single attack automatically mean a failed Death Save reduces a TON of book keeping. It might seem very radical to my friends playing, since negative Hit Points have been a D&D staple since always, but I think they can get behind this.
Let me point out that his does penalize players with higher hit points who could potentially survive more than three attacks. My players might really want to keep track of Negative Hit points still. I could make it to where whenever they are attacked, they have to make a death save along with taking damage as normal. Granted, that is extra book keeping but if it adds a significant amount of tension to combat and the players don't mind it then I think it's worth doing. BUT I do have other rules bogging things down that, in combination with this, could slow the game a fair amount.
Your rules would make feats or class/paragon path/ epic destiny features that grant extra Death Saves extremely invaluable. Unfortunately, that kind of puts things too much in favor for Humans, Warforged and Revenants for the role of Defender.
I think I'm going to completely drop Fatigue and remove the Critical Hit Chance bonus from Exhaustion. I'm also removing the -2 to Death Saves from Last Stand.
I've included System Shock because I feel it adds some realism. It's always kind of bugged me characters being able to hop back from the verge of death like nothing was wrong. You could argue that's just a perk to healing magic, and I would agree with you. Still, I rather they felt recovering from dying a little more. I could do a couple of things...
A) System Shock is permanent until a short rest. This way they won't feel like reserving Second Wind.
B) You are slowed until the end of your next turn. If you are below half your total number of healing surges, you are also dazed. It's much worse than System Shock but goes away more quickly and is far less mathy. Slowed is worse than you might initially imagine because you probably want to escape from whatever it was that caused you to be in such bad shape.
I'll probably go with B) though I'll miss using the name System Shock.
So these changes would mean
1) Last Stand (no more death save penalty for less math)
2) Exhaustion (no more +crit chance for less math)
3) Slowed / Dazed after returning from Desperate (less math than System Shock, no need to reserve Second Wind)
4) Death Saves whenever you take damage below 0 Hit Points (I think I'll probably keep negative HP so I don't unbalance things for Defenders)
Do you think just giving Defenders one additional Death Save (4 total until they die instead of 3) would make players not mind not having Negative Hit Points?
Do you think just giving Defenders one additional Death Save (4 total until they die instead of 3) would make players not mind not having Negative Hit Points?
I think an extra death save would probably satisfy them, but it depends a lot on your group. I didn't get any resistance to it in mine even with using the standard 3. Again, my theory is that once you're dying, any weapon can potentially kill you so the abstraction of HP no longer applies (a knife across your neck, a sword through your chest, or a fireball causing burns on 90% of your body are all equally deadly). They might be happy just to have less bookeeping. And at higher level, while it is true the extra HP would have given them more survivability that the death saves don't take into account, they also have better access to healing and extra saving throws. If used in conjunction with Desperation, it would also force an interesting choice on them. Do I continue to attack in hopes of bringing this guy down, which could also cause retaliation against me, or do I play dead and wait for someone to help me while the rest of the party handles him?
Do you think just giving Defenders one additional Death Save (4 total until they die instead of 3) would make players not mind not having Negative Hit Points?
I think an extra death save would probably satisfy them, but it depends a lot on your group. I didn't get any resistance to it in mine even with using the standard 3. Again, my theory is that once you're dying, any weapon can potentially kill you so the abstraction of HP no longer applies (a knife across your neck, a sword through your chest, or a fireball causing burns on 90% of your body are all equally deadly). They might be happy just to have less bookeeping. And at higher level, while it is true the extra HP would have given them more survivability that the death saves don't take into account, they also have better access to healing and extra saving throws. If used in conjunction with Desperation, it would also force an interesting choice on them. Do I continue to attack in hopes of bringing this guy down, which could also cause retaliation against me, or do I play dead and wait for someone to help me while the rest of the party handles him?
I like the point you make in your last sentence there. It makes being Desperate thought provoking. Do you think they should still have the option of using Aid Another while Desperate? Also, as a full-round action, do you think they should be allowed to shift one space so they don't provoke Opportunity attacks? I know this is veering away from the Death Save Failure on damage, but you've got me thinking a lot about the Desperate condition now.
Your rules do encourage the use of At-Will and area effect powers to kill targets. Why waste a big damage dealing power when an At-Will can do the same thing? I don't think that's a bad thing, it's just an observation.
By the way, thanks for the input. You've made a lot of intelligent points worth noting. :D
I like the point you make in your last sentence there. It makes being Desperate thought provoking. Do you think they should still have the option of using Aid Another while Desperate? Also, as a full-round action, do you think they should be allowed to shift one space so they don't provoke Opportunity attacks? I know this is veering away from the Death Save Failure on damage, but you've got me thinking a lot about the Desperate condition now.
Your rules do encourage the use of At-Will and area effect powers to kill targets. Why waste a big damage dealing power when an At-Will can do the same thing? I don't think that's a bad thing, it's just an observation.
By the way, thanks for the input. You've made a lot of intelligent points worth noting. :D
Yes my system might encourage At-Wills to finish off targets, but usually monsters are removed from play once they hit 0 HP anyway. Now for Desperate. For Aid Another, my initial reaction was no, but now that I think about, I think they should be able to. I don't think it's a stretch for a hero to be battling the villain and losing the battle, when suddenly the ally that was supposed to be dead steps in and distracts the villain, allowing the hero to land the killing blow. I also don't see anything wrong with letting a Desperate character shift 1 square by giving up all their actions. A Desperate character isn't exactly going to have it easy anyway.
Yes my system might encourage At-Wills to finish off targets, but usually monsters are removed from play once they hit 0 HP anyway. Now for Desperate. For Aid Another, my initial reaction was no, but now that I think about, I think they should be able to. I don't think it's a stretch for a hero to be battling the villain and losing the battle, when suddenly the ally that was supposed to be dead steps in and distracts the villain, allowing the hero to land the killing blow. I also don't see anything wrong with letting a Desperate character shift 1 square by giving up all their actions. A Desperate character isn't exactly going to have it easy anyway.
Thanks! I'm going to post the revised Death and Dying rules based on input from this thread soon. Before that, I want to talk about the Injury system mentioned before as being something that only Solo type foes have access to.