If the rule does exist where can I find it?
If it does not I would like to start a discussion about how how such rules might work. I am quite happy with the new bull rush rules (3.5 was a disaster) and it would be a shame if tripping and disarming fun were not part of 4.0
the main reason these aren't core abilities?
disarming means your weapon-user is now near-useless as most powers require a weapon of sort and most damage boosting feats require weapons. it's really just a pain in the arse on both sides of the GM screen. sundering is even worse.
tripping, again, is quite powerful as it gives penalties on attacks, defenses and movement. being able to do that virtually every round to pin an enemy almost in one place is very powerful.
we might see those as standardized abilities later on, but i really hope WotC waits to get it right.
The Fighter Attack 1 power, Spinning Sweep allows you to knock your target prone. There are many other powers that knock targets prone, too.
I try to encourage off-the-wall tricks and things of this nature whenever possible.
I suppose they can gain access to the power by multiclassing into fighter or rogue. This allows them to pick it up if it is what they really see their character doing in a fight. I also might say that an opponent is disarmed if they pull off something particularly daring such as hiding in a tree and leaping down on the opponents head. This would probably be shocking enough to make a minor enemy drop their weapon and be prone.
Thoughts on this?
I also might say that an opponent is disarmed if they pull off something particularly daring such as hiding in a tree and leaping down on the opponents head. This would probably be shocking enough to make a minor enemy drop their weapon and be prone.
Thoughts on this?
Just to keep things in perspective, the only power I am aware of that allows you to disarm your opponent is a level 17 Fighter power. If you start allowing players to do this effect plus knock the target prone, at a lower level and/or without using a power, it may cause this and other powers obsolete and may break the game. I can understand you want to encourage creativity amongst your players, but just ensure that things do not get too out of hand.
Disarming is a move that can really cripple a target for the remainder of the battle. The 4E rules took out the save or die effects for good reason. Although disarming is not as severe as save or die, if the weapon or implement is a significant portion of a creature's power, disarming the weapon is close to save or die.
Another thing you would want to consider is how players would react if they got jumped by enemies the same way and lost their weapon or implement for the remainder of the battle. These things work both ways. Save or die effects really make it unfun if used against players. If you have 200 hit points and think you can last several rounds, it's disheartening if the first die roll takes you out of the action.
If you're worried about obsolescence, just adapt the 3e rule on disarming - if it fails, they get an immediate chance to disarm you in response. The powers don't have that proviso.
If I were going to do it again, I'd make those powers have one effect against an unarmed enemy and a bigger one against an enemy that was armed.
Worst-case scenario, the weapon goes flying across the room and you have to disengage (probably taking opportunity attacks) to go get it... or, you pick up a chair (or whatever happens to be at hand) and whack your assailant with it until something better comes along. It can encourage battlefield movement, which makes things exciting.
Worst case scenario, the weapon is picked up by the enemy.
The simplest way in my opinion is a basic attack vs either Fort or Reflex at a -2 penalty that if it hits, target is rendered prone or disarmed of one item but no damage. A miss allows the target to try to do the same as a free action if they are able (in the case of ranged attacks it may not be possible.)
I'll go ya one better... keep the -2 penalty using a basic attack to disarm or trip vs Fort or Reflex as you have above. Also, as you have, no damage is caused.
However, if you miss, instead of the opponent getting a chance to do the same to you, you grant combat advantage to all enemies until your next turn.
To harsh? Or just right considering your trying to trip or disarm someone without the proper training (ie: power) to do it.
Worst case scenario, the weapon is picked up by the enemy.
That's about two steps above worst-case, since that means that either they didn't have a weapon before (unlikely), or they're dropping the weapon they're already carrying, which means you can go for that one on your next turn (or, if they sheathe it, you've got a little extra time to get away, since they're using up two minor actions to change weapons after having already used their standard to disarm you). Not counting for action points, of course.
Besides, if you happen to be a swordmage, you can just teleport it out of their hands on your next turn
That's about two steps above worst-case, since that means that either they didn't have a weapon before (unlikely), or they're dropping the weapon they're already carrying, which means you can go for that one on your next turn (or, if they sheathe it, you've got a little extra time to get away, since they're using up two minor actions to change weapons after having already used their standard to disarm you). Not counting for action points, of course.
Besides, if you happen to be a swordmage, you can just teleport it out of their hands on your next turn
w-hat? It's unfathomable that someone might be carrying a one-handed weapon? Using two minors and a standard is fully possible in a single round, anyway.
w-hat? It's unfathomable that someone might be carrying a one-handed weapon?
It's unlikely that someone is going to pick up your weapon just to prevent you from using it. It's just not intuitive. The more natural reaction (and the more tactically sound one in this case) is to kick the weapon away - which leads into the worst-case scenario where you have to chase after it.
Using two minors and a standard is fully possible in a single round, anyway.
Yes, but then you don't take damage because they've used all their actions to totally disarm you (and most monsters don't have action points, so you can leave that out of the equation). If you have to move away to retrieve your weapon, they can opportunity attack you, and you might take damage. Now, I assume that taking damage is a worse case than not taking damage, yes?
It's unlikely that someone is going to pick up your weapon just to prevent you from using it. It's just not intuitive. The more natural reaction (and the more tactically sound one in this case) is to kick the weapon away - which leads into the worst-case scenario where you have to chase after it.
I can see situations where it is kicked over a cliff or off a ship.
A non-power based system for tripping and disarming is something sorely needed in 4e. I was extremely dissapointing that Martial Power didn't solve this - it just introduced more problems.
A big point of 4th ed is equality between the classes. Tripping and Disarming could potentially be very useful tactically, and I think it would be unfair if there were only a few classes that could do it at-will.
A non-power based system for tripping and disarming is something sorely needed in 4e.
Generalize much? A more appropriate remark would be: "I would like for 4E to have a non-power based system for tripping and disarming." 4E needs neither, unless you're willing to start telling everyone they've been playing it wrong for the last few months.
It's unlikely that someone is going to pick up your weapon just to prevent you from using it. It's just not intuitive. The more natural reaction (and the more tactically sound one in this case) is to kick the weapon away - which leads into the worst-case scenario where you have to chase after it.
Yes, but then you don't take damage because they've used all their actions to totally disarm you (and most monsters don't have action points, so you can leave that out of the equation). If you have to move away to retrieve your weapon, they can opportunity attack you, and you might take damage. Now, I assume that taking damage is a worse case than not taking damage, yes?
I hardly see how it's "not intuitive" to pick up an enemy's weapon in a fight. I will admit that in a lot of RL situations it would be far safer and quicker to just kick the weapon away, but there are some situations in which I'd personally prefer to pick up the weapon such as if I were originally unarmed, I didn't want the enemy's allies to be able to have the weapon, or any number of other circumstances. In the context of a D&D battle and the way things are structured there would really be no reason for me to not pick up the weapon if I have the actions available to do so and I have an empty hand to hold the weapon in; also keep in mind that in D&D a 'weapon' might also include a holy symbol, wand, rod, or other type of implement which gives the enemy powers and abilities they might not otherwise have.
Back on topic to the main post: Trip and disarm are available via various powers, but there's no universal way in 4E to utilize such tactics. Although I highly miss those options as tactical options, I'm not sure that they really have a place to fit with the rest of the 4E ruleset being built in the manner it's built. 4E's balance seems to have close ties with the X Power = Y Effect model.
Ah, yes, page 42 strikes again. If my players want to trip or disarm, I let them. All the trip and disarm powers I've seen also attack for damage. I don't think it's unbalancing to spend a standard action to do these maneuvers and not get your attack in.
I try to encourage off-the-wall tricks and things of this nature whenever possible.
Pretty much same here. I do allow unarmed damage to apply to a trip/throw (always far less than a power that does the same thing). Disarm is a trickier matter, I have it as an attack (for no damage) vs the higher of Ref (avoids the attempt) or Fort (holds on to weapon for dear life with raw strength/endurance). On any non-power disarm, it lands in an adjacent square always, so it at least takes a move (shift) and minor action to pick it back up.
I hardly see how it's "not intuitive" to pick up an enemy's weapon in a fight.
There's the RL explanation (which is complicated) and the game one (which is much simpler).
In a real life situation, disarming and then picking up the enemy's weapon requires multiple actions which run contrary to combat instinct. First, you have to resist the instinct to just keep attacking them while they're weaponless and thus at a disadvantage. How hard this is depends largely on the strength of your adrenaline response - I imagine it would be extremely easy for me, but your mileage may vary. Second, you have to recognize that their weapon is better than yours. This is easy if you're unarmed to begin with (and aren't trained in unarmed combat), but in that case you've already accomplished a lot by engaging them in the first place. Third, you have to reach down and pick up the weapon. This divides your attention and potentially puts you off balance, opening you up for a counterattack. Fourth, you have to accustom yourself to the peculiarities of the weapon if you want to effectively use it against them - the weight and balance may be off, and if you wield it improperly, it's much easier for them to wrestle it away from you. This last point assumes melee weapons, but a similar principle applies for ranged weapons - you have to demonstrate that you know how to use the weapon (cocking the gun, reloading the crossbow, etc), otherwise the enemy knows that you'll have a harder time defending yourself if he tries to take it back.
In game, to pick up a dropped weapon you'd have to enter their square (the precedent for dropped weapons in both 3e and 4e is that it lands in the wielder's square), which provokes opportunity attacks from them and any of their friends who happen to be in position. Admittedly, you'd also have to do that to kick their weapon away unless you wanted to spend an action point to make an extra attack against the weapon, so neither approach is particularly intuitive in the game context. For that matter, neither is disarming in general: since being unarmed doesn't grant combat advantage, and neither does picking things up, they're only out one minor action whereas you have spent a standard action which could have been used to deal damage.
Back on topic to the main post: Trip and disarm are available via various powers, but there's no universal way in 4E to utilize such tactics.
This is because those tactics are highly situational, and what rules you'd use for them vary according to circumstance. For instance, if you're trying to shove someone over, that's a Strength attack vs Reflex. If you're trying to kick their legs out from under them, that's Dex vs Reflex. If you're trying to cut a chandelier cord at exactly the right time so that it falls on their head and knocks them over, that's Intelligence vs Reflex. If the target is particularly sturdy, you'd possibly be attacking Fortitude instead. If you're wielding a rapier and trying to disarm someone else wielding a rapier, that's opposed Dexterity checks. If you've got a club instead, that's opposed Strength vs Dexterity. If they've got some sort of special sword with an intricate grip that makes it easier to hold on to, or particularly good gauntlets, they might get a +2 to their roll.
A non-power-based system for tripping and disarming is not sorely needed in 4e, because it already has one, laid out quite clearly and succinctly on page 42 of the DMG. All it takes is players willing to get out of the mindset that if it isn't explicitly laid out in the PHB, they can't do it.
That's about two steps above worst-case, since that means that either they didn't have a weapon before (unlikely), or they're dropping the weapon they're already carrying, which means you can go for that one on your next turn
Of course, if the trade is your +6 vorpal fullblade against their ordinary broadsword, the scenario does worsen a bit.
I agree with people who say that disarm is broken. I remember when I used to disarm all weapon-wielding opponents in Neverwinter Nights and then take them down with opportunity attacks.
Perhaps I am missing something in the PHB, but are trip and disarm no longer available in 4e. These seem to be a major part of combat if you watch people who really know how to fight with a sword. They trip each other, and knock each others weapons out of their hands all the time so as to gain an advantage on their opponent.
If the rule does exist where can I find it?
If it does not I would like to start a discussion about how how such rules might work. I am quite happy with the new bull rush rules (3.5 was a disaster) and it would be a shame if tripping and disarming fun were not part of 4.0
It doesn't exist yet because the dire flail fighter that never let an opponent stand up made someone in R&D cry. Perhaps it's yet to come in Dragon?
Trip
Benefit: You get the power Trip
Trip Basic Attack
At-Will*Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: The target is knocked prone.
Disarm
Benefit: You get the power Disarm
Disarm Basic Attack
Encounter*Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: The target drops one weapon it is holding. It land on the ground at their feet(in their square).
As for disarming being to powerful, am I the only one that has a backup weapon. It does not cost that much. Just have a Dynamic Dagger+1 and Augmenting Whetstone of an ok level and it is not than bad. Now if you are being disarmed every turn then it would be a problem.
As for being knocked prone, there are low level items make this not a big deal. Acrobat Boots and Rope of Slave Fighting come to mind.
It would be better to abstract a Disarm effect and have a generic attack power that does no damage but imposes a specific penalty to the target's attacks, or perhaps that requires they spend a Move action on their turn to regain the use of their weapon. The weapon doesn't actually go anywhere in the meantime (so it can't be lost); it just requires they use a Move before they can attack with it again. That way, at least, the effect is equal regardless of level.
This is because those [trip] tactics are highly situational, and what rules you'd use for them vary according to circumstance. For instance, if you're trying to shove someone over, that's a Strength attack vs Reflex. If you're trying to kick their legs out from under them, that's Dex vs Reflex. If you're trying to cut a chandelier cord at exactly the right time so that it falls on their head and knocks them over, that's Intelligence vs Reflex. If the target is particularly sturdy, you'd possibly be attacking Fortitude instead. If you're wielding a rapier and trying to disarm someone else wielding a rapier, that's opposed Dexterity checks. If you've got a club instead, that's opposed Strength vs Dexterity. If they've got some sort of special sword with an intricate grip that makes it easier to hold on to, or particularly good gauntlets, they might get a +2 to their roll.
Thats one of the best "explanations" I have heard thus far. Only question I have is, are those rolls to easy?.