Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 pluisjen Aug 29, 2011 4:44:49	Hi all, This thread is to discuss something I've been thinking about for a bit lately after reading some threads on cinematic kills, long combats and the save or die concept. Basically I was thinking about computer games and movies where especially lesser foes sometimes get brutally mauled in an extra gory fashion, and how satisfying it is to watch that. Think games like God of War, or the new Warhammer: Spacemarine moves. While Minions are already available as cannon fodder against which you can go all out, the most satisfying ones I find aren't against the Minions, but more the Standard or sometimes even Elite equivalent. However, these attacks always take a bit of set-up... stunning, grabbing, quick time event, and if you do it right you get to the gore. So... I was thinking, how to translate this awesomeness to 4e and improve the game at the same time? And I came up with this thing, but I'm not sure if it's going to work fully. So, my first attempt is to put my initial ideas on here and see if people are interested, think it'd work, and would be willing to give feedback and/or help me shape it up further. So basically these are my goals: - These cinematic kills have to deliver a satisfying gore - They need setup - They require teamwork - They need to be balanced against normal attacks - They need to not destroy the BBEG in one timed blow And this is my opening idea. Let me know what you think. Step 1: New base condition added to the game: Pierced A creature that is pierced has its defenses temporarily compromised, leaving it vulnerable to attack. Pierced creatures take extra damage equal to 1/2level of the attacker when hit by an attack. Step 2: A new keyword for powers: Execution An execution move makes excellent use of a creature's temporarily lower defenses. When hitting with an Execution attack against a creature that is currently Pierced, the attack is treated as a Coup de Grace (ie; auto-critical and insta-kills if you deal bloodied damage in one blow) Step 3: Adding powers that Pierce. Now, since this is teamwork oriented I was thinking that Pierce powers only add Pierce when the target already has a pre-existing condition. This makes the teamwork slightly bigger. For example; a Wizard power like Bone Hands could create a zone of grasping hands that deal minor necrotic damage, and add Pierced to any creature that is Prone inside the zone, but the power itself cannot prone anything. Piercing powers would favor the Controller, with the odd one going to the Leader (like the Warlord) Step 4: Adding powers that Execute. These are easier. They have to be powers that are decent, but not overwhelming, on their own. They need to deal good damage, but not much else mostly. If you can't get anything Pierced, they shouldn't be useless, but they should shine with good teamwork.  These should favor the Strikers, with the occasional one going to the Defenders. By not making it an effect that can be applied by a power directly (except maybe the most powerful of powers) you require teamwork; one characters sets the monsters up, a second Pierces it, and the third executes it. This gives you the flavor of a well operating team that hacks apart an opponent is a terrible fashion, without making it super powerful against Elites and Solos (at best you get an auto-crit from the Striker after two lighter hits, but he shouldn't be able to deal Bloodied in one hit), forcing teamwork (since Pierced is hard to apply on your own and does little and Execution moves don't work without it)  So. That's the basic idea. Now I ask of ye forum go'ers: - Do you think adding cinematic mauling to the game would improve it? - Do you think this system could be balanced? - Do you think it would be fun? - Do you have examples of the sort of powers you could use for it?
#2 Tony_Vargas Aug 30, 2011 2:02:50	Hmm.. Strikers can already put out some heinous damage, especially when set up by a controller or leader.  There aren't a lot of 'helpless (save ends)' set-up effects out there, but where they exist, they can set up a CdG, which must be pretty gory. You could add more 'finishing' type powers - that require the target be bloodied and under one or another condition (depending on the power).  For instance, you might have a 'Shattering Blow' that requires the target be bloodied, slowed, and taken cold damage since the end of it's last turn.  You could have powers that do some part of thier damage 'all or nothing.'  That is, they do some - maybe a lot - of extra damage, but that damage only happens if it's enough to drop the target - again, hopefully making them a dramatic 'finishing move,' instead of another potential nova.  So, yeah, I think it might be doable.  Of course, I'm sure however you implemented it, CharOp could come up with builds that could drop Orcus in one round using one of 'em - but, heck, they'll always be able to do that. OTOH, you could also just let the character that drops a given monster describe it in a particularly gory fashion if he so desires... maybe limiting it to dropping the monster with an encounter or daily or combo, rather than just plinking it's last few hps with an at-will...
#3 Rustmonster Aug 30, 2011 2:10:51	- Do you think adding cinematic mauling to the game would improve it? I'm actually very intrigued by this idea. It really does conjure up video-game style cinematic finishing moves in my mind. I can see it creating very epic battles. - Do you think this system could be balanced? As a system? Yes. In 4E? No. 4E has HP. Other than a few outlying effects, the system uses the assumption that HP protects you from suffering a deadly blow. If you ported this idea into 4E, you'd have two divergent, competeing paths to defeat a foe. This is not a good thing. The reason? Parties will focus on either HP reduction or Executions. Spliting resources between them is pointless. It would be best to either attempt to improve the amount of HP damage your party can cause, or to create the best set-up for an Execution. There is absolutly no point to doing this in a single system. You've created essentially two games within the game, one where the goal is HP reduction, and one where the goal is setting up an Execution. This is clunky design. I also fear that since Peirced and Executions are so powerful, even against Elites against whom it is essentially free crits, they would be the only options chosen anyway, since they can either be used for HP reduction or insta-kills. Combat will be decided by Execution one way or the other, either by instant kills or reducing the enemy to 0 HP, making all other mechanics obsolete. - Do you think it would be fun? Again, I think it would be very fun, but only in a game where Executions were the expectation, a game where the entire thing is built around them. As it stands, adding it to 4E would completely change the way D&D is played. You goal seems to be having them as options that are just as viable as the current options, but I feel they would basiclly become the norm. It is simply so much easier than causing HP reduction, and in all likelyhood is even better at CAUSING HP reduction that the current mehanics!
#4 pluisjen Aug 30, 2011 2:50:43	Hm, currently Executions work as an overlay on the HP system. They still do HP damage, and you still need to kill someone by reducing their HP (or by overwhelming their defenses) Regardless it was fully my intention to limit them to Encounter and Daily powers only, there won't be an ability to set up at-will executions. Also, remember that it's a three step process. Just because the last one is a free crit, doesn't mean it's super powerful because you're still making 3 attacks that all have to hit, one of which probably will deal no or very little damage (the piercing one)  And a game where executions would be the norm sounds great. I'm envisioning "God of War: the TRPG" now...
#5 Herrozerro Aug 30, 2011 8:54:05	I like it, to further take your idea of teamwork I feel that peirced and Execution should be maybe exclusive to Controller/Leader (Pierced) and Striker/Defender (Execution).  To further enhance the goals of making this a team effort. It makes sense, at least to me, controllers and leaders set it all up, the defenders and strikers knock them down. If not separating it by role as that can get iffy with MC and hybrids, perhaps limit it by you can only be a Peircer or Executioner. Though for myself I might make them a seporate system, added on top of 4e as a whole.  Maybe tied to weapons or keywords.  For instance make up some encounter or daily powers that are affiliated with weapon groups or damage type keywords that each player can choose one or two of. For instance,  using one of Tony's examples: Make Fragile    Piercer Attack Encounter * Varies, Impliment, Weapon Prerequisite:  Target must have taken Cold or Thunder damage within the last round. Attack: Highest Ability vs Fort Hit: 2d6+ Highest Ability Mod damage and the target is pierced until the end of your next turn. Miss: Half Damage And a theoretical execution power for a hammer user: Shattering Blow   Execution Attack Encounter * Weapon Prerequisite: You must use a hammer with this attack Attack: Highest Ability Mod vs AC  Hit:  2W + highest Ability Mod Damage Pierced Target: You may treat this attack as a Coup de grace Miss:  Half Damage Im unsure weather I would let this be an attack that could be used without a pierced target as it is presented or put the target needing to be peirced in the prerequisite line. Either way, my idea is that this is another layer on top of 4e rather then trying to put it along side existing options.
#6 Herrozerro Aug 30, 2011 11:05:23	In addition I feel that a successful Execution attack should remove the pierced condition as to not allow one peirced enemy to be executed multiple times.