I'm going to list my 4e likes and dislikes. The likes are here just to make it clear that I do have a lot of likes. What I'd like is for people to suggest how I deal with the dislikes. And hey I know they may not be dislikes for you but thats a matter of taste right? Also please no flame wars!!
Likes about 4th Edition
Monsters Stat Blocks.
Monster CR/xp system.
Ease of New Monster Design (including rules).
Auto-skill advancement (mostly).
Balance across classes.
DM philosophy on monster selection in combat.
DM philosophy on room design to a degree.
At-will, Encounter, Daily powers.
Rituals.
Death is rarer.
Game is funner at lower levels.
Game is easier to run as a DM.
Better balance for magic items. Game breaking magic items are out.
I do like the variety and the committment to many classes.
The goal of Skill Challenges - making skill roles more interesting.
Push, Pull, Slide effects.
Conditions and how they work.
Everyone has to make an attack.
Defense instead of saves.
New Expansions don't break the game.
Dislikes about 4th Edition
Many Non-combat skills are missing (length of skill list in general)
Skill challenges are broken.
The feeling of great power at high levels
DM philosophy on room design to a degree
Magic items boring and weak
Feats are mostly boring and weak
5 minute workday is not gone
DM philosophy focused 99% in dungeon, campaign building, kingdom ruling, etc... (see 1st edition)
Gold is exclusively used to buy,make,use magic items and rituals.
Any item in the game can be created at will. (This is ameliorated by the fact that magic items are pretty passe but two wrongs in this case definitely do not make a right)
The cost of raise dead is cheap.
Combat advantage is not significant enough with multiple characters.
Magic item usage limits.
I wish classes where more about mechanics and less about flavor. (Minor Issue and with all versions)
DM philosophy - too much pamper the players
50/50 Saving throws.
So anyway thanks in advance. Not everything has to be addressed by the way and also try and not lose any of my 4e likes when you "solve" my 4e dislikes. Thanks. This is not a anti-4e troll I promise.
-Many Non-combat skills are missing (length of skill list in general)
which ones are missing? the craft/perform/profession skills are thankfully removed and now left to background status, but the 3rd skills have been amalgamated into a more condensed list
-Skill challenges are broken.
these are entirely optional. as to how broken they are i've seen different opinions on the issue, so i really can't say. WotC has updated them in the errata with lower values.
-The feeling of great power at high levels
this is something D&D has always had in general. at high levels you can literally move mountains
-DM philosophy on room design to a degree
?
-Magic items boring and weak
magic items are now made to enhance the character instead of defining him
-Feats are mostly boring and weak
same as items, enhance and not define
-5 minute workday is not gone
you're right, it's not gone, heck, as long as there exists abilities that only come back during the next day it won't be. but due to abilies that regenerate after each encounter, you don't feel as pressed to take advantage of it. the 5 minute workday is also generally easily managed by using time sensitive events.
-DM philosophy focused 99% in dungeon, campaign building, kingdom ruling, etc... (see 1st edition)
what would you like to have seen more of?
-Gold is exclusively used to buy,make,use magic items and rituals.
as opposed to..? nothing is stopping you from throwing gold around on other stuff, but at higher levels, GP is usually traded in for items
-Any item in the game can be created at will. (This is ameliorated by the fact that magic items are pretty passe but two wrongs in this case definitely do not make a right)
it's a DM's perogative to not allow the magic item creation ritual
-The cost of raise dead is cheap.
then raise it (pun entirely intended)? once you got high enough level, dead in D&D is generally as trivial as your DM wants to make it.
-Combat advantage is not significant enough with multiple characters.
what you have liked to see instead? CA is meant to be a generic effect that adds to other stuff, usually because you can't protect yourself to the best of your abilities
-Magic item usage limits.
only on daily abilities. encounter based or at-will items don't have limits on their use other then the "encounter/5-minutes" or "every turn if you want it"
-I wish classes where more about mechanics and less about flavor. (Minor Issue and with all versions)
does this mean you want more subsytems?
-DM philosophy - too much pamper the players
as opposed to what?
-50/50 Saving throws.
saving throws are now a duration mechanic. since the old saves are now static defenses, the term has been changed to changed to reflect duration.
Many Non-combat skills are missing (length of skill list in general)
What skills are missing? AFAIK, all we are missing are Craft and Profession skills, which served only to determine the time required to create mundane items and how much money a character could make working in a non-adventuring career.
If you want to break apart a few of the skills back into separate components (Athletics into Climb, Jump, and Swim, etc.), then my advice would be to add one extra trained skill to every class for every four new skills you add to the game. This way, a well-built party of five characters can still do everything expected of them in a campaign, but you can better separate out who is good at what tasks.
Skill challenges are broken.
The errata basically fixed this problem- especially if you keep the +5 modifier on skill checks. What do you consider to be broken about them?
The feeling of great power at high levels
As opposed to what edition? Do you mean that non-casters feel powerful at high levels? If anything, I've seen complaints that even epic-level characters (aside from a few overpowered builds) are pretty weak compared to casters in 3.x.
DM philosophy on room design to a degree
Not really sure what you mean here...
Magic items boring and weak
So... characters feel too powerful at high levels but their items are weaker?
One of the design goals of 4e is to make the game about the characters- not their equipment. I have no idea how one could possibly up the power of magic items while simultaneously making the characters not have "the feeling of great power" at high levels. I honestly have no idea... sorry...
Feats are mostly boring and weak
Feats in 4e do not grant new powers. That's what the powers you get on most levels are for. Feats grant mechanical bonuses, and thanks to the PHB2, also provide a means to "patch" your character to keep the math from falling apart at epic levels.
5 minute workday is not gone
Why? Are your players burning their dailies and then resting? If that's the case, tone down the encounters a bit and/or tell them they don't need their daily powers to win every fight- they really don't!
In my game, my players were running out of healing surges after about 3 fights (I was throwing lots of level+1 and level+2 encounters at them), so I now let every character recover a healing surge at every milestone. This has made a big difference, and now my party members routinely do 6 combat encounters between rests.
DM philosophy focused 99% in dungeon, campaign building, kingdom ruling, etc... (see 1st edition)
The 4e DMG is arguably the best DMG ever published for this game. It contains so much material on doing more than creating interesting encounters.
In fact, what exactly is missing here? The DM builds a campaign, the kingdoms within it, and the dungeons for the players to explore. Am I missing something? What else is he supposed to do- provide snacks?
I suppose some recipes in the DMG could have helped- so long as it didn't suggest "add oregano to taste".
Gold is exclusively used to buy,make,use magic items and rituals.
We use gold in my game primarily to buy consumable magic and alchemical items. I had to make some new stuff (there wasn't enough in the AV), but there you go. Beyond that, what else do you want them to buy? If you want them to buy a castle, then make it part of the story. Beyond that, what do you want? You party to just say "that's enough cash, let's all retire!" and just end the campaign?
I'm genuinely curious- what else do you want them to do with their gold?
Any item in the game can be created at will. (This is ameliorated by the fact that magic items are pretty passe but two wrongs in this case definitely do not make a right)
Here's a house rule for that:
Any magic item you want to create is subject to DM approval.
Sound good?
The cost of raise dead is cheap.
500 gp is cheap for a level 3 party? 5,000 gp is cheap at level 13? 50,000 gp is cheap at level 23?
And what about the eight hours of time wasted?
I'll agree that the financial costs get somewhat less steep when the characters are just about to switch tiers (500 gp isn't a terrible burden at level 10, for example), but the -1 penalty still hurts- enough to put the fear of death in the characters in my game, at least.
I guess my best advice would be to either significantly increase the time required for the ritual (a week?), or adjust the costs so that there is a smoother transition between heroic/paragon/epic tiers.
Combat advantage is not significant enough with multiple characters.
Do you mean that the +2 bonus for combat advantage isn't enough of a bonus? I would simply say that "it is" and leave it at that.
The one minor grievance I've had is that it doesn't stack- several times I've seen an enemy surrounded, knocked prone, and blinded, and yet they party still only gets a +2 bonus to attack rolls. Perhaps you could allow the benefits of combat advantage to stack- either with a limit (say up to a +4 bonus if you get it twice) or something more complex (+2 for combat advantage, +1 per additional source of advantage).
Note that most of the time, this will help the players a lot more than it will help their enemies, and it makes rogues (who traditionally seek out combat advantage already) have an even easier time hitting the enemy.
Magic item usage limits.
Adjust them to whatever you want to see in your game. Like I said earlier, 4e is about the characters, not their equipment. If you want to see more item daily powers get used, then increase the limit. Just note that this makes some lower-level items substantially more useful at higher levels, since the relative "cost" of a daily magic item power is reduced.
I wish classes where more about mechanics and less about flavor. (Minor Issue and with all versions)
Look at the 4e ranger- other than having to take either Nature or Dungeoneering, they are simply the "two weapon or archery martial striker" class. How much more flavor do you want them to lose? Aside from a small number of class abilities and their choices of skills, what "flavor" are you talking about?
DM philosophy - too much pamper the players
I wouldn't call "letting your players have fun" pampering them per se, but I see your point.
But how would a house rule help fix the implied philosophy in the rulebooks? Couldn't you just be a bastard to your players? I mean... that's what I do anyways...
50/50 Saving throws.
Saving throws in 4e are a duration mechanic. I don't know what else you want here- what do you want to fix? The attack roll now represents overcoming the defenses of your opponent, not their ability to roll a save against it.
Anyways, I hope these can help you. Maybe with some additional feedback, myself and others can provide additional support to help you fine-tune the game to the mutual benefit of yourself and your gaming group.
- Many Non-combat skills are missing (length of skill list in general)
It is easy anough to separate skills back into more 'origional' molds, but this was done with one main thing in mind: non-skill monkies (rogues and such), especially classes that dump Int, still have a good group of skills. I merged Spot/Listen/Search a while ago, Hide and M.S. as well. Athletics and Acrobatics followed in suite. Diplomacy and Deception swallowed up a lot of skills again. All of this before 4th was even announced. Why? Because it made life simpler and kept certain power-gamers in my group from throwing a skill point into a skill at level 15+ just so that they can use the 'Trained-only' functions. I keeps the paperwork down, and lets players do a lot more with a little.
- Skill challenges are broken.
The concept is good, but yes, challenges as presented are wonky. I base my challenges around the idea of a tree; as you fail or pass, you take certain branches. DCs are done as 10+1/2 lvl+5 for lower difficulties, raised as needed. And, as my DM philosophy, I keep things fluid, altering it as neccessary. You have to find your own path with SC.
- The feeling of great power at high levels
Well, shouldn't epic levels feel epic. The philosophy is that at higher levels you should be powerful, especially levels 16+, because you are approaching the power of demigods, ancient heroes, and such.
- DM philosophy on room design to a degree
Explain this one further.
- Magic items boring and weak
Custom creating items has always been up to the DM, but this edition has less of an enphasis on magic items then it's predicessor. I personally never felt an item's power or abilities should overshadow or define a character.
- Feats are mostly boring and weak
Not quite weak, but much less important in defining the character. Powers has taken a lot of that flair feats used to have, as well as the choosable class options.
- 5 minute workday is not gone
If you allow your players ample time between fights, yes it is still there. But with encounter and at-will powers, even if a level 30 PC blows all of his/her dailies in the first fight, they still have something to do in the next. Nor should a player do what was usually done in 3rd ed.; blow everything destructive in the first rounds of combat, then break out the proverbial crossbow. When to use a power is much more important this edition.
- DM philosophy focused 99% in dungeon, campaign building, kingdom ruling, etc... (see 1st edition)
No RGP, reguardless of setting, rules etc., should tell you how to role-play. The rules should (and do) help you work out all the numbers needed for the game, at that is always going to be a lot. Whatever else you use should and is up to you.
- Gold is exclusively used to buy,make,use magic items and rituals.
What ever else it is used for is up to your world.
- Any item in the game can be created at will. (This is ameliorated by the fact that magic items are pretty passe but two wrongs in this case definitely do not make a right)
Not really at will, but I always frowned upon the idea of withholding items a player wants. You can always RP the need to get a recipie.
- The cost of raise dead is cheap.
Easy to change, or have other certain conditions apply. And the cost does go up.
- Combat advantage is not significant enough with multiple characters.
Another ???
- Magic item usage limits.
Another way to keep items from overshadowing a PC and his/her powers. Implimented in MIC and made the game easier on myself and my group.
- I wish classes where more about mechanics and less about flavor. (Minor Issue and with all versions)
I don't see this, as each class, especially PHB II classes, do have major mechanical differences, instead of just different spell lists.
- DM philosophy - too much pamper the players
You make the game as hard or as easy as you want it. I stick to the middle; the players are always about to loose bbut manage to come out on top. Besides, a player is going to (usually) put a lot of heart into a character; no one I have ever met enjoyed loosing a PC to the first save-or-die spell they come across (1st level stuff in 3.x).
- 50/50 Saving throws.
No more save or suck/die, it allows both the PC and monster to stay in a fight if a 1 is rolled on their first save.
Just me, but some of your problems are directly or indirectly related to fluff. Those you have to change or re-define for yourself. Those problems of crunch are either there for balance reasons, such as the skill list or saving throw, or are easy enough to change like challenges. And change them. Not just if you want to, but I don't believe there will ever be a game that is 100% perfect. And 4th edition is flexiable enough, even more so then 3rd, in allowing these changes that you should be making up house rules early and often. The game promotes it. Even with all the parts of the game I loved I changed a great deal of them to suite my specific wants and needs in the game. If I couldn't do this I would never have looked at 4th ed. Playing some games much more rules-heavy, like Call of Cthulhu, I ended up hating the system, especially when weird fluff-causing-rules or arbitrary subsets come into play. 4th does it's best to stay away from this. That is why I love the system. The system no longer dictates the game I play, I make it what I want.
Many Non-combat skills are missing (length of skill list in general)
Perform, Craft and Profession were removed because they have no heroic level use. A starting D&D character has an Olympic level bonus at the skills they are trained at, making roles for those skills meaningless if they can't be meaningfully increased past real world Grand Master levels. If you wish to make the PCs less adept at those skills the I suggest creating a side skill system for those abilities with inflated skill numbers. Should you want you can use whatever houserules you made up to make sense of 3rd EDs meaningless arbitrary numbers. Just don't charge the PCs real skills, use a separate non adventuring skill pool of some design.
As a side suggestion I do suggest you use backgrounds in the PHB II style regardless of your other choices. In addition I would remove professions, as a profession is a compilation of skills used in an environment to make money. A sailor should be able to climb(Athletics), balance(Acrobatics), and navigate(Nature) on land as well as at sea. The only unique ability they have is the ability to steer/manage a ship, something that would be easy to obtain knowledge about.
Skill challenges are broken.
Skill challenges are fine. The skill system itself has the same issue 3.5 does, in that it's too easy to be really good or really bad at a skill.
If you feel people who aren't trained in a skill should only have a long shot at "normal" success and only people who are trained in skills should play during a skill challenge keep the skill checks at the high end. If you feel that people who are incredibly overskilled at a skill should auto succeed and people who are okay should have a good chance at success to maximize participation use the low numbers after errata. If you want a more balanced system prevent any non power modifiers to skill from stacking past +5 (IE max bonus is 1/2 level +5 for trained + 5 for ability/feat/skill focus) and redo the skill challenge math to fit.
The feeling of great power at high levels
Don't play Epic. This is a constant theme of D&D so you'll have to bear it pretty much every edition.
DM philosophy on room design to a degree
Not sure what you dislike here, but having interesting things about a room to interact with is always good in any edition/RPG.
Magic items boring and weak
Magic Items are actually some of the biggest game breakers in system right now. However I have to admit they are kinda dull. Try introducing more low level wondrous items. Also go through any 2nd ED stuff you may have (or can find online) and tweak it so it's fair, but odd. Just remove the instant win/lose stuff and replace it with more interesting fare.
Feats are mostly boring and weak
They're meant for low level customization. They should be weak. You'll get over it in time.
5 minute workday is not gone
Not much that can be done here. Try making more items milestone based to help out. It's the best D&Ds ever been in this issue, so I can't think of anything better right off.
DM philosophy focused 99% in dungeon, campaign building, kingdom ruling, etc... (see 1st edition)
Can't see your issue here. Please explain.
Gold is exclusively used to buy,make,use magic items and rituals.
Er, no real change from before. D&D's just too high level economically to make the PCs care about lesser expenses. You can mess with the math, just make sure you know what your changing, why it was originally that way, and the ramification of those changes.
Any item in the game can be created at will. (This is ameliorated by the fact that magic items are pretty passe but two wrongs in this case definitely do not make a right)
Artifacts. Now that you can actually play with the damn things you can and should use them.
Also players really want items above their level. You can only create items of equal level or lower. I state as a player that's been a constant thorn in my side preventing me from getting everything I want.
The cost of raise dead is cheap.
Not really. It actually goes up with level as opposed to before where 1000 gp got you back just fine every time. Revolving Door death is just a D&D thing. But you can cut it if you and your group don't want it.
Combat advantage is not significant enough with multiple characters.
Uh, it's as good or better then flank ever was. I don't see your point here.
Magic item usage limits.
It's to help with the 5 day workweek issue. And to balance the game. You can remove them if you want, but realize you'll just run into the "uber power" issue you had up top earlier if you do so.
I wish classes where more about mechanics and less about flavor. (Minor Issue and with all versions)
Well 4ths not as flavor bound as most editions, and far more open about what touches what, so you can futz with things without worrying about destroying the entire balance system, so long as you don't change the numbers.
50/50 Saving throws.
Saves replaced duration. It works pretty well in practice. Just mentally compare the effects to rolling 1d4 rounds when you have an issue.
What I'd like is for people to suggest how I deal with the dislikes.
Okay, I'll try to do that without going with the "no you shouldn't dislike that". I make no promises as for not really making comments. ;)
Many Non-combat skills are missing (length of skill list in general)
What I'd do if I felt like that is branch skills. Take each skill and turn it in two branches. You can implement some balancing factor such as "if you're trained in Stealth (Move Silently) you get a bonus to Stealth (Hide)" or whatever. Some skills are ready to branch if you compare them to 3rd edition skills, some others might require some effort (branching Heal, for example). If you want an interesting twist, say that each skill training gives you 10 points to spend among the two branches, and you can't go lower than 3. Other bonuses apply to both equally.
Skill challenges are broken.
For this, I'll say "wait for DMG2 and see". They say there's something interesting in that regard in the book...
The feeling of great power at high levels
As someone said above... That's the point, isn't it? Since the greater deities are now lvl 35-37ish, the fact that a character gets to lvl 25ish should mean he IS powerful...
Nevertheless, that's not a suggestion. Here goes: halve XP values for monsters to slow progression. Stop playing at the level you consider the point where things start going downhill.
DM philosophy on room design to a degree
Huh? Is this about the "encounters should take place in locations at least Y x Z squares large"?
Magic items boring and weak
Feats are mostly boring and weak
Boost them. Even though, as mentioned, these are no longer meant to be defining factors in a character's sheet, nothing stops you from boosting them to your desired power level. I'd work this on a "per request" basis. Have your players suggest how they'd like a feat to improve, and work together to reach a common ground between what he wants and what you want.
5 minute workday is not gone
Don't let your players do that. If you need it, use RAW for long rests, where you can't take another long rest until 12 hours (or something, not with book right now) have passed.
DM philosophy focused 99% in dungeon, campaign building, kingdom ruling, etc... (see 1st edition)
I'm not sure I get the point. You're complaining that there's too much focus on making crunchy adventures (dungeons) or fluffy descriptions (kingdom ruling)?
Anyways, the cure is simple: select different books. Manual of the Planes is much more fluffy than Martial Power and so on...
Gold is exclusively used to buy,make,use magic items and rituals.
Any item in the game can be created at will. (This is ameliorated by the fact that magic items are pretty passe but two wrongs in this case definitely do not make a right)
My point would be: How is this different?
But this is about suggestions, so: Be a DM. Charge PCs gold for their travels (tolls), for authorization to enter the Sacred Dungeon, for bribing a monster etc. They only stash their gold for magic items because that's what players WANT to buy. If they NEED to spend elsewhere, they probably will (or they'll try to get around paying, which will lead to fun events). Regarding magic items, you can institute a mechanic similar to alchemy recipes. You need to pay a sum to learn how to make the item. I'd make it very minor, otherwise players won't want to make items because it costs so much to get the recipe.
The cost of raise dead is cheap.
Change it. Don't let players get raised automatically if you think they're abusing the system ("oh, let me die, you can just raise me later for 500 bucks"). You've got the power.
Combat advantage is not significant enough with multiple characters.
How so? a +2 to hit is a +2 to hit, doesn't matter if two characters get it (from flanking) or all the party (from a dazed monster). Actually, the MORE characters that have CA against a target, the BETTER (for the attackers).
Magic item usage limits.
Raise the limits. Ignore them. Up to you. Remember that limitless magic items might mean the players will stash low level items to abuse them ("okay, in this short rest I'll pull out my three helms of healing and use their powers").
I wish classes where more about mechanics and less about flavor. (Minor Issue and with all versions)
This is at odds with what you say about liking that everyone makes attacks now. Before, the wizard was very different, mechanically, from the fighter. Now they're more similar in structure. Still, different in effect.
DM philosophy - too much pamper the players
Don't pamper the players. Just because the DMG says "the goal is to have fun", doesn't mean you need to comply.
50/50 Saving throws.
How about 1d4 round durations instead? If the save has a penalty, make it 1d4+1 or +2, or if it has a bonus 1d4-1 or -2 (min 1). If something gives an extra save, count off a round. This changes the way (save ends) works greatly, though, but it makes it clear that saves are merely a time tracking device.
Skills. There are a couple ways to deal with this. One: highest mental skill bonus extra skills, while also adding crafting and performing, etc back into the game. I would advise against seperating the skills though, beyond that. It will end up requiring a lot of work to make sure it works properly.
the other way to go is to put in a side skill system, with points, based off the skill bonuses, that has separate record keeping from the primary skill system.
The economy. I'm guessing here, but if your problem is the same as mine, there are simple solutions.
My problem is that there is no economy the pcs can actually interact with in a real profound way, and allowing them to profit financially from things other than adventuring is discouraged by the fact that you pretty much can't make profit from selling things, particularly things you make.
If your characters want to go into trade, let them. Make social adventures of it, complete with xp if you like. Possibly involve a form of skill challenges(I use a simple sucession of rolls, diplomacy, then streetwise, the bluff, etc and if the successes outway the fails and the rp during the SC was good, they succeed, or if they just win every roll, etc.) Put in overhead, so their not making pure profit, start them small, and take the price of any item they create off by 10-15 percent for crafting cost, and depending on how well they roll(if you want to make a crafting roll, if you don't want to add crafting back in, use theivery. if you do use crafting, I'd suggest making it a single skill) put back all or some of that 10 - 15 percent back in to the sell price. If they want to do it, give them haggling rolls(diplomacy) with a small bonus to the sell price.
Later on, as the business grows and they have mooks doing the selling for them and own multiple shops or caravans, whathaveyou, make social adventures of making cross national contacts, making deals with bulk suppliers, major buyers, etc. Definately make those whole social encounters if the pcs are up for it, and determine how big their business gets on how much effort and planning they put into it. It probably shouldn't take over the campaign, but it can be used for normal adventure hooks. They will get rivals, make enemies, etc. They will likely **** off either authorities or criminal interests, and if they become inbedded in national or international economy of a region, a war in that region could pull them in in different ways than we're used to.
Raymond Feist's books can give some decent inspiration for this sort of thing. between their adventuring, and business success, they could even concevably gain political control of a region, leading to all manner of conflict, and thus adventure.
Make the whole thing as simple or complex as the players and your interest in such things. One of the most fun campaigns I've ever been a part of had this sort of endeavor, and it was a major plot point, driving a large portion of what brought us into conflict with other people, meaning that after the first few levels none of our adventures were the usual townsfolk need help, you're adventurers, do it. or, the church of pelor is hiring adventurers to kick some but against a Bannite Cult.
It was pretty amazing.
One thing is I meant "The lack of epic feel at epic levels"
I do agree that I don't want magic items defining the game for the PCs. I basically agree with many of the 4th Edition design goals. On the other hand I would like my group to get excited about magic items especially wonderous items. I also hate the fact that even the simplist Elixer takes your magic item power for the day (at heroic).
As for skills. I like the amalgamated skills especially for things used heavily in adventuring. Currently I am using a dual skill system. I just wondered what everyone else was doing if anything.
While I consider the 4e DMG to be very good at what it does I feel it doesn't do enough. Doing a series of adventures and then retiring at the end without all the extra trimmings just seems boring to me. At some point you want to build your own Tower, Temple, Castle, Thieves Guild, etc...
What I did do was put in my own rules for creating business, organizations, and managing henchman. No henchman rules seems to be a major ommission. It has been a trend post 1st Edition (so its not a new trend) to remove all information about how to run a campaign versus a series of adventures.
This is where gold comes in... my PCs need gold to push their campaign objectives (and they vary by player). But realistically if I didn't do something different with magic item creation I'd have players with so much gold they could always have any magic item.
I agree magic items were a big issue in earlier editions. I'm not saying bring back all those issues. I'm just wondering if anyone has any ideas on how to bring back some of the fun without wrecking the game.
Here are some ideas I have floated around (I have vowed to finish a generic campaign before house ruling so some of these ideas are just on the board for now).
1. Give players a set number of daily uses per level. Eliminates the 5 minute work day. (Approximately 4 dailys uses per daily power per level) (based on 10 encounters to level)
2. I've created the missing rules for campaign stuff (organizations, businesses, etc...) I ended up writing a time system with weeks as the unit of measure. So to do some things time is required.
3. I've created a secondary system of skills that are less valuable in game but still add to roleplaying flavor.
4. For magic items I implemented a rule that you had to have a recipe to do creation. The local arcane guild has most of the basics but anything I don't want or don't want immediately isn't available. It gave my group a reason to join the guild.
5. Probably raise the price to 5000gp period. Not sure I buy into the world reasoning for different prices. The ritual will also be a much much higher ritual so you have to buy and if you appear rich the raiser may charge more.
My group is 8th level and no one has died yet. People have went down but no one has truly died where a raise is needed. I figure with the scarcity of death raise dead should really hurt.
Any this post was meant to be a gathering place for ideas not a debate over the merits of any system or reasoning. I don't mind if you want to chime in but its hard to argue about how "fun" something is... If magic items are lacking in fun right now for me and my group how can that be disputed for example?
magic items: wonderous items tend to be hit or miss, IMO. too much of a corner case and it gets seen as "money not yet converted", too good and it becomes almost required. to use an example, my 3rd ed group found a cloak of the manta. now normally, this item would be corner case material, but we're playing a coastal game and we've found ourselves on boats pretty often. it's saved our iron block, i mean the dwarf fighter, from drowning several times while giving him actual mobility and my warlock has used it along with his invisibility & flight invocation to go spy underwater. many times we've been debating getting a second one, but other needs took our shinies away first. what you think is missing from the items? a larger variety? more "@will" powers?
on buildings & organizations: i've always thought those things should be handled by the GM and not the game itself. i wouldn't be surprised if we see mention or guidelines of this in the DMG 2 or Unearthed Arcana (which i firmly believe the additional DMGs will basically be). the DMG in 4th is probably one of the best i've read that teaches you how to run the game. what you seem to be wanting a "Campaign Creator's Handbook".
on revival: once you hit epic 5000gp is pretty much a drop in the bucket for an epic PC. a 22th level magic item is worth 65 revivals if the cost is flat... an heroic tier pcs shouldn't even begin to dream about it.
This is where gold comes in... my PCs need gold to push their campaign objectives (and they vary by player). But realistically if I didn't do something different with magic item creation I'd have players with so much gold they could always have any magic item.
If you really want to have gold be an interesting commodity that the PCs search after here's my suggestion. Cut it out of the treasure loop. Make all the "gp" the players earn based on wealth by level come in residium. Then remove magic item shops et all from the game. To turn a magic weapon into money requires a massive effort to find a buyer such that it almost isn't worth it. Finding a magic item you want is a quest in itself, such that it's almost better to hope you get lucky. And making items requires residium instead of arcane components, which you can't buy for money. No one's selling that stuff, it's too precious.
Now that money can't buy magic you can ration it out as you want. Kill a Dragon for it's horde? Sure give them 2mil in cash. They can't buy items with it, and they'll need every cent to build their castle and hire the troops to keep the angry landowners from smashing them for building it.
It's a lot like working in the wish based economy in 3rd. If gold can only be used for RP purposes past level 3, it doesn't matter how much or little of it you give out.
1. Give players a set number of daily uses per level. Eliminates the 5 minute work day. (Approximately 4 dailys uses per daily power per level) (based on 10 encounters to level)
That's a bad plan here. A lot of stuff futzes with daily use and that's a big part of the game. What would be better would be making X milestones required for a full rest to give you back your stuff (2 to 4 depending on your combat to non combat ratio). Assuming your PCs don't try to ration things anyway of course. I know my groups hate wasting an in game day if they don't have to.
2. I've created the missing rules for campaign stuff (organizations, businesses, etc...) I ended up writing a time system with weeks as the unit of measure. So to do some things time is required.
I feel like things of that sort should be an adventure, or at least part of it. I remember in one of my recent campaigns one of us took over a small town (via lies and chicanery) and the interesting part wasn't rolling for henchmen or calculating out how much cash we earned/spent. It was interacting with the people who worked for us, planning new expansions and dealing with the people who may or may not have legitimately owned the place. Perhaps your game feels differently, in which case you should work something up, but I think it's better to spend that time on the NPCs. But if you alter the item rules as I suggest above it won't be a big deal.
3. I've created a secondary system of skills that are less valuable in game but still add to roleplaying flavor.
Just remember to split skill it so you don't convince people to avoid RP and all should be well.
4. For magic items I implemented a rule that you had to have a recipe to do creation. The local arcane guild has most of the basics but anything I don't want or don't want immediately isn't available. It gave my group a reason to join the guild.
Hm... It's cool if your PCs want to be tied to a guild, but making that a must isn't a good plan in my point of view. Also I think just removing the gold to magic exchange is a better plan.
5. Probably raise the price to 5000gp period. Not sure I buy into the world reasoning for different prices. The ritual will also be a much much higher ritual so you have to buy and if you appear rich the raiser may charge more.
That's real cheap for Epic characters. I'd either keep the price jump or make the spell Epic only. Otherwise the game gets easier as you go up in level which always seems counter intuitive to me.
If you really want to have gold be an interesting commodity that the PCs search after here's my suggestion. Cut it out of the treasure loop. Make all the "gp" the players earn based on wealth by level come in residium. Then remove magic item shops et all from the game. To turn a magic weapon into money requires a massive effort to find a buyer such that it almost isn't worth it. Finding a magic item you want is a quest in itself, such that it's almost better to hope you get lucky. And making items requires residium instead of arcane components, which you can't buy for money. No one's selling that stuff, it's too precious.
Now that money can't buy magic you can ration it out as you want. Kill a Dragon for it's horde? Sure give them 2mil in cash. They can't buy items with it, and they'll need every cent to build their castle and hire the troops to keep the angry landowners from smashing them for building it.
It's a lot like working in the wish based economy in 3rd. If gold can only be used for RP purposes past level 3, it doesn't matter how much or little of it you give out.
Wow, I actually really like that idea! That almost completely removes the "Before we start adventureing, we work for 50 years and amass a fortune. How many +5 Vorpal Bastard Swords should I buy?" dillema, as well as the "I buy a castle. Might as well settle down as I can't compete against monsters anymore" problem. It also removes Mage Mart, making magic items seem more special.
If you really want to have gold be an interesting commodity that the PCs search after here's my suggestion. Cut it out of the treasure loop. Make all the "gp" the players earn based on wealth by level come in residium. Then remove magic item shops et all from the game. To turn a magic weapon into money requires a massive effort to find a buyer such that it almost isn't worth it. Finding a magic item you want is a quest in itself, such that it's almost better to hope you get lucky. And making items requires residium instead of arcane components, which you can't buy for money. No one's selling that stuff, it's too precious.
Now that money can't buy magic you can ration it out as you want. Kill a Dragon for it's horde? Sure give them 2mil in cash. They can't buy items with it, and they'll need every cent to build their castle and hire the troops to keep the angry landowners from smashing them for building it.
Random side note, why would there be angry landowners? Surely you're not building a castle on land you don't own, right?
Anyway, I'm not sure why you would need to make magic items unpurchasable. Why wouldn't the effort involved with making a successful business, and the social encounters involved, be worthy of monetary reward in a addition to what they get from normal adventures?
Wow, I actually really like that idea! That almost completely removes the "Before we start adventureing, we work for 50 years and amass a fortune. How many +5 Vorpal Bastard Swords should I buy?" dillema, as well as the "I buy a castle. Might as well settle down as I can't compete against monsters anymore" problem. It also removes Mage Mart, making magic items seem more special.
Wow, I didn't know that other than Mage Mart, any of those things were even issues. People really try to pull that stuff? and DMs don't just say no, period? And why would buying a castle mean you need to retire? that one is really confusing.
Dislikes about 4th Edition
Many Non-combat skills are missing (length of skill list in general)
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Magic items boring and weak
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Any item in the game can be created at will. (This is ameliorated by the fact that magic items are pretty passe but two wrongs in this case definitely do not make a right).
In D20 brutal I am borrowing the craft skills from D20 modern, and making them multiple checks for every item creation, and every enchantment. Failure means you just don't make the item and have to start over again, but for every value of 5 over the required roll, the item will gain bonuses (haven't written down what yet). Also rather than level, I am using skill requirements to limit what the PCs have access to/are able to make.
Knowledge skills also come into play with more advanced objects.
Wow, I didn't know that other than Mage Mart, any of those things were even issues. People really try to pull that stuff? and DMs don't just say no, period?
I was more trying to talk about if players tried to do things for extra gold, like use Crafting or Prof, to get an adventureing edge by taking time off. I'm sure it wasn't much of a problem, but some players might take a "It's in the rules, that means I can do it!" tact.
basiclly, to sum up, it would allow players to make money in ways other than adventuring without busting the magic item assumptions.
And why would buying a castle mean you need to retire? that one is really confusing.
Because, if you spend all your gold on a castle, you have no money to buy adventureing gear. Therefore, there is no point in adventureing, because you'll just die. I gold did not translate into gear, then it wouldn't be a problem to plunk down a couple mil gold to buy a castle.
Because, if you spend all your gold on a castle, you have no money to buy adventureing gear. Therefore, there is no point in adventureing, because you'll just die. I gold did not translate into gear, then it wouldn't be a problem to plunk down a couple mil gold to buy a castle.
Though arguably this isn't as big a problem in 4E, because magic items don't define your character to the extent they did in 3E. Though they are still nice!
Though arrguably this isn't as big a problem in 4E, because magic items don't define your character to the extent they did in 3E. Though they are still nice!
True, but you still DO need the three basic item types to stay on top. You'd be playing at a definite handycap.
True, but you still DO need the three basic item types to stay on top. You'd be playing at a definite handycap.
Agreed.
I was more trying to talk about if players tried to do things for extra gold, like use Crafting or Prof, to get an adventureing edge by taking time off. I'm sure it wasn't much of a problem, but some players might take a "It's in the rules, that means I can do it!" tact.
basiclly, to sum up, it would allow players to make money in ways other than adventuring without busting the magic item assumptions.
Hmm. That's a fair reason to make sure the rules as written work to avoid it, but I don't see the problem with a DM whose willing to make essentially a social adventure out of it giving tangible benefit from ecenomic ventures.
Because, if you spend all your gold on a castle, you have no money to buy adventureing gear. Therefore, there is no point in adventureing, because you'll just die. I gold did not translate into gear, then it wouldn't be a problem to plunk down a couple mil gold to buy a castle.
I guess I don't see the problem here. You wouldn't be able to get a castle early on adventuring, you'd pretty much have to go adventuring for a while, and be frugal, do things to make more money than the average adventurer. And, um I really don't think that adventuring without maxed out gear is going to equal death, unless your DM is a jerk or an idiot. In fact, if you have little to know magical gear, your DM should just scale down encounters slightly if needed.
I still don't think buying a castle would lead to forced retirement. Also, if the players really want a castle, the DM should make it possible over the course of the campaign to get a castle, either by saving a kingdom and getting lordships or whatever other means seems appropriate to the campaign. There's no reason to hold out on them arbitrarily, it's a perfectly reasonable thing for them to work for, and eventually achieve.