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do people play with modified rule sets

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
edwin_su
Nov 24, 2011 12:00:24 do people play with modified rule sets and if so what are the modifications you made ?

I once played with a DM that loves the Vancian system  and loved wizards ( when he plays as player he is always a wizard of some type)
so he modified daylie powers for wizards to be more like the old Vancian system

a wizard could have an unlimited amount of daily powers in spellbooks he would have to learn/buy trade to get the spells/powers.
instead of set powers a wizard would get slots
each slot can contain a spell/power of the level equal or lower then the slot level

example:
a level 9 wizard would have 3 spell slots levels 1 5 and 9
a lavel 29 wizard would have 3 spell slots levels 19 25 and 29 ( if he wanted he could prepere the samel lvl 19 daily 3 times)

he also found the concept of a martial class being out of power strange so he also modified this with the folowing change.
each time a martial character would gain a daily power the player may chose to gain a encounter power of the same level or lower instead.
( marking the power with a D on the character sheet so he knows it was originaly was a daily)

basicly this is just use of rule 0 if you don't like a rule change it.
#2
bone_naga
Nov 24, 2011 12:23:37 Yeah, I'm a big fan of the Amethyst rules. My current campaign is set in modern day with magic, so the tech rules/classes and the magical disruption rules have been a good time. Since it is a skill-heavy campaign, I also threw in a couple things like using action points to reroll failed skill checks, the option to replace attack powers with utility powers of the same or lower level (level 1 attack can be traded for level 2 utilities) and same usage (at-will/encounter/daily), and burning healing surges when they are about to fail a skill challenge to reroll the final failed check.

On a side note, the Houserules and Homebrew forum would have been a better place to post this.
#3
edwin_su
Nov 24, 2011 12:39:19 your right i looked for it but coulden't find it in the D&D fundementals section
and diden't scroll further down then the errata section in the pull down menu so diden't see there was a

-D&D Comunity
-- House Rules & Homebrew

further down in the list

#4
kev777
Nov 24, 2011 13:20:40 That forum should really be right under the 4e Rules Q&A section. House rules are major part of D&D and always have been.
#5
bone_naga
Nov 24, 2011 13:34:17
That forum should really be right under the 4e Rules Q&A section. House rules are major part of D&D and always have been.

Yes it is a part of D&D but Q&A is to ask questions in regards to specific aspects of RAW. The houserules forum is just fine where it is.
#6
Seeker95
Nov 24, 2011 15:03:13 I suspect *every* group plays by a modified ruleset, although some are more codified than others.

Our current group plays with a modified parcel system. Neck, Armor, and primary "Weapon/Implement" slots advance automatically, with one of these groups advancing at each even level. The rest of the parcel items are distributed from among wish lists and wondrous items, at roughly a 50/50 mix.
#7
kev777
Nov 24, 2011 15:34:04
That forum should really be right under the 4e Rules Q&A section. House rules are major part of D&D and always have been.

Yes it is a part of D&D but Q&A is to ask questions in regards to specific aspects of RAW. The houserules forum is just fine where it is.

I think that if the house rules forum was out in the the open under the 4e Rules Q&A forum more people would use it. Right now it's kind of useles if no one replies half the time.
#8
Herrozerro
Nov 24, 2011 21:51:18 just another shout out for Amethyst!
#9
BohoMojambo
Nov 25, 2011 16:22:09 The only major rule we don't use is the Magic Item Daily restriction

All magic items can be used once per day.
#10
salla
Nov 25, 2011 16:24:02 I strongly suspect that all playgroups play with an altered ruleset, whether by intent or by simply not knowing that a rule exists, or by choosing not to use errata. For example, we don't use the update on Stances that makes them shut off when you fall unconscious.
#11
complete4th
Nov 25, 2011 19:15:56 I have several pdfs of game mods; they're all aimed toward balancing 4e better.

That forum should really be right under the 4e Rules Q&A section. House rules are major part of D&D and always have been.

Yes it is a part of D&D but Q&A is to ask questions in regards to specific aspects of RAW. The houserules forum is just fine where it is.

I don't think Kev meant that HRs should be a sub-forum of the Q&A; I think he meant it should be listed right after the Q&A forum.
#12
pvx300b
Nov 25, 2011 19:43:36 One of the many house rules I use is a math-friendly update to PC attacks and defenses that I call Base Attack Bonus and Base Defense Bonus, respectively.

Base Attack Bonus

At 5th level, every character receives a +1 bonus to all attack rolls. This bonus increases to +2 at 15th level and +3 at 25th level. However, a feat bonus to attack rolls that scales with level or tier (such as Orb Expertise) instead grants its base bonus throughout all levels and tiers of play. This feature corrects a character's improperly scaling attack bonuses with respect to monster defenses while preserving the desirability of the expertise line of feats.

Base Defense Bonus

At 1st level, when calculating a character's Fortitude, Reflex or Will defenses, the minimum contribution from ability score modifier is either the appropriate modifier or +2, whichever is greater. This minimum increases to +3 at 11th level and +4 at 21st level. This feature offsets a character's degrading non-AC defenses in relation to ability score placement while maintaining the desirability of the various defensive feats.

At 5th level, every character receives a +1 bonus to its Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses This bonus increases to +2 at 15th level and +3 at 25th level. However, a feat bonus to defenses that scales with level or tier (such as Superior Will) instead grants its base bonus throughout all levels and tiers of play. This feature corrects a character's improperly scaling non-AC defenses with respect to monster attack modifiers while preserving the desirability of the various defensive feats.
#13
Herrozerro
Nov 25, 2011 21:08:34
The only major rule we don't use is the Magic Item Daily restriction

All magic items can be used once per day.

that hasnt been an actual rule in quite some time.

#14
CCS
Nov 25, 2011 22:24:55 Lol.... The very 1st 4e campaign we ran was modified!

The initial books explicitly told you that magical ammo didn't exist.
We thought that was pure stupid given the vast # of examples of magic arrows in fantasy lit/myth.
and so magic arrows made an appearance in the first treasure parcel we found.
#15
keghammer
Nov 26, 2011 17:17:19 We only started using themes which I feel is power creep,otherwise we use no Dragon Mag additions and very little from FR or any other iterations. The modules we're in can barely handle us as is...
#16
mvincent
Nov 26, 2011 18:54:15
do people play with modified rule sets and if so what are the modifications you made ?

I avoid house rules since I run public games (LFR, Encounters, Lair Assault). House rules not allowed in those for obvious reasons like consistancy and to allow players to transition between groups. I try to avoid them in my home games for the same reasons (and to avoid acquiring habits that won't work in my public games).

That said, my two concessions are to increase combat speed (since otherwise combats take forever... which ultimately could cause me to drop the hobby):
1) Average damage. This seems to increase the pace by about 40%, and doesn't actually seem to affect play balance (most people don't even notice or care when I do this).
2) Monsters go on the same (average) initiative. Since this effectively allows players to go in any order (even simultatiously, if desired), this increases the pace by about 100%+.
#17
Einlanzer
Nov 28, 2011 15:24:01
One of the many house rules I use is a math-friendly update to PC attacks and defenses that I call Base Attack Bonus and Base Defense Bonus, respectively.

Base Attack Bonus

At 5th level, every character receives a +1 bonus to all attack rolls. This bonus increases to +2 at 15th level and +3 at 25th level. However, a feat bonus to attack rolls that scales with level or tier (such as Orb Expertise) instead grants its base bonus throughout all levels and tiers of play. This feature corrects a character's improperly scaling attack bonuses with respect to monster defenses while preserving the desirability of the expertise line of feats.

Base Defense Bonus

At 1st level, when calculating a character's Fortitude, Reflex or Will defenses, the minimum contribution from ability score modifier is either the appropriate modifier or +2, whichever is greater. This minimum increases to +3 at 11th level and +4 at 21st level. This feature offsets a character's degrading non-AC defenses in relation to ability score placement while maintaining the desirability of the various defensive feats.

At 5th level, every character receives a +1 bonus to its Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses This bonus increases to +2 at 15th level and +3 at 25th level. However, a feat bonus to defenses that scales with level or tier (such as Superior Will) instead grants its base bonus throughout all levels and tiers of play. This feature corrects a character's improperly scaling non-AC defenses with respect to monster attack modifiers while preserving the desirability of the various defensive feats.

Mine is pretty much identical, except I never really thought of the NAD minimum bonus. I instead tried to think of ways that both relevant stats could contribute to your defense, but haven't come up with anything that works.

Pretty groovy.
#18
bone_naga
Nov 28, 2011 18:51:21
Mine is pretty much identical, except I never really thought of the NAD minimum bonus. I instead tried to think of ways that both relevant stats could contribute to your defense, but haven't come up with anything that works.

This was under my 3e variant, but I had a rule where all attacks and defenses applied two stats. The 2 stat defense didn't make things too difficult because attacks got 2 stats as well. I did some math and found that under that system, at least as far as combat went, players were better off spreading their scores out instead of min/maxing. Of course, this didn't necessarily become the norm either because things like spells and focus on certain skills could still make it attractive to boost a certain stat, but it was much more viable to have moderate scores spread out among your abilities.

Of course, this was easier under 3e where all attacks used the same stats so it was an easy rule to implement. Doing the same under 4e would require a lot more effort since different powers for the same class might warrant different secondary stats.
#19
pvx300b
Nov 29, 2011 9:16:46
Mine is pretty much identical, except I never really thought of the NAD minimum bonus. I instead tried to think of ways that both relevant stats could contribute to your defense, but haven't come up with anything that works.

Pretty groovy.

Well, it occured to us that NAD scaling with respect to monster attack was only part of the problem. An off-NAD that is not corrected--that is, one that is tied to an ability score you never put discretionary points into--will fall more behind, to the point where Team Monster is off the d20. (I think Square Fireballs did a series of articles on why NADs are all messed up. While I don't care for their solution, it is a fascinating read if you're into the math side of D&D.)

We have found that this house rule preserves the spirit of the original design while fixing the unforgivable math error present in that same design. I didn't trouble myself with trying to explain exactly why the contribution should exist in-game; I wrote it off as an abstract concept that needed no explanation. ^_^;

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 edwin_su Nov 24, 2011 12:00:24	do people play with modified rule sets and if so what are the modifications you made ? I once played with a DM that loves the Vancian system and loved wizards ( when he plays as player he is always a wizard of some type) so he modified daylie powers for wizards to be more like the old Vancian system a wizard could have an unlimited amount of daily powers in spellbooks he would have to learn/buy trade to get the spells/powers. instead of set powers a wizard would get slots each slot can contain a spell/power of the level equal or lower then the slot level example: a level 9 wizard would have 3 spell slots levels 1 5 and 9 a lavel 29 wizard would have 3 spell slots levels 19 25 and 29 ( if he wanted he could prepere the samel lvl 19 daily 3 times) he also found the concept of a martial class being out of power strange so he also modified this with the folowing change. each time a martial character would gain a daily power the player may chose to gain a encounter power of the same level or lower instead. ( marking the power with a D on the character sheet so he knows it was originaly was a daily) basicly this is just use of rule 0 if you don't like a rule change it.
#2 bone_naga Nov 24, 2011 12:23:37	Yeah, I'm a big fan of the Amethyst rules. My current campaign is set in modern day with magic, so the tech rules/classes and the magical disruption rules have been a good time. Since it is a skill-heavy campaign, I also threw in a couple things like using action points to reroll failed skill checks, the option to replace attack powers with utility powers of the same or lower level (level 1 attack can be traded for level 2 utilities) and same usage (at-will/encounter/daily), and burning healing surges when they are about to fail a skill challenge to reroll the final failed check. On a side note, the Houserules and Homebrew forum would have been a better place to post this.
#3 edwin_su Nov 24, 2011 12:39:19	your right i looked for it but coulden't find it in the D&D fundementals section and diden't scroll further down then the errata section in the pull down menu so diden't see there was a -D&D Comunity -- House Rules & Homebrew further down in the list
#4 kev777 Nov 24, 2011 13:20:40	That forum should really be right under the 4e Rules Q&A section. House rules are major part of D&D and always have been.
#5 bone_naga Nov 24, 2011 13:34:17	That forum should really be right under the 4e Rules Q&A section. House rules are major part of D&D and always have been. Yes it is a part of D&D but Q&A is to ask questions in regards to specific aspects of RAW. The houserules forum is just fine where it is.
#6 Seeker95 Nov 24, 2011 15:03:13	I suspect every group plays by a modified ruleset, although some are more codified than others. Our current group plays with a modified parcel system. Neck, Armor, and primary "Weapon/Implement" slots advance automatically, with one of these groups advancing at each even level. The rest of the parcel items are distributed from among wish lists and wondrous items, at roughly a 50/50 mix.
#7 kev777 Nov 24, 2011 15:34:04	That forum should really be right under the 4e Rules Q&A section. House rules are major part of D&D and always have been. Yes it is a part of D&D but Q&A is to ask questions in regards to specific aspects of RAW. The houserules forum is just fine where it is. I think that if the house rules forum was out in the the open under the 4e Rules Q&A forum more people would use it. Right now it's kind of useles if no one replies half the time.
#8 Herrozerro Nov 24, 2011 21:51:18	just another shout out for Amethyst!
#9 BohoMojambo Nov 25, 2011 16:22:09	The only major rule we don't use is the Magic Item Daily restriction All magic items can be used once per day.
#10 salla Nov 25, 2011 16:24:02	I strongly suspect that all playgroups play with an altered ruleset, whether by intent or by simply not knowing that a rule exists, or by choosing not to use errata. For example, we don't use the update on Stances that makes them shut off when you fall unconscious.
#11 complete4th Nov 25, 2011 19:15:56	I have several pdfs of game mods; they're all aimed toward balancing 4e better. That forum should really be right under the 4e Rules Q&A section. House rules are major part of D&D and always have been. Yes it is a part of D&D but Q&A is to ask questions in regards to specific aspects of RAW. The houserules forum is just fine where it is. I don't think Kev meant that HRs should be a sub-forum of the Q&A; I think he meant it should be listed right after the Q&A forum.
#12 pvx300b Nov 25, 2011 19:43:36	One of the many house rules I use is a math-friendly update to PC attacks and defenses that I call Base Attack Bonus and Base Defense Bonus, respectively. Base Attack Bonus At 5th level, every character receives a +1 bonus to all attack rolls. This bonus increases to +2 at 15th level and +3 at 25th level. However, a feat bonus to attack rolls that scales with level or tier (such as Orb Expertise) instead grants its base bonus throughout all levels and tiers of play. This feature corrects a character's improperly scaling attack bonuses with respect to monster defenses while preserving the desirability of the expertise line of feats. Base Defense Bonus At 1st level, when calculating a character's Fortitude, Reflex or Will defenses, the minimum contribution from ability score modifier is either the appropriate modifier or +2, whichever is greater. This minimum increases to +3 at 11th level and +4 at 21st level. This feature offsets a character's degrading non-AC defenses in relation to ability score placement while maintaining the desirability of the various defensive feats. At 5th level, every character receives a +1 bonus to its Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses This bonus increases to +2 at 15th level and +3 at 25th level. However, a feat bonus to defenses that scales with level or tier (such as Superior Will) instead grants its base bonus throughout all levels and tiers of play. This feature corrects a character's improperly scaling non-AC defenses with respect to monster attack modifiers while preserving the desirability of the various defensive feats.
#13 Herrozerro Nov 25, 2011 21:08:34	The only major rule we don't use is the Magic Item Daily restriction All magic items can be used once per day. that hasnt been an actual rule in quite some time.
#14 CCS Nov 25, 2011 22:24:55	Lol.... The very 1st 4e campaign we ran was modified! The initial books explicitly told you that magical ammo didn't exist. We thought that was pure stupid given the vast # of examples of magic arrows in fantasy lit/myth. and so magic arrows made an appearance in the first treasure parcel we found.
#15 keghammer Nov 26, 2011 17:17:19	We only started using themes which I feel is power creep,otherwise we use no Dragon Mag additions and very little from FR or any other iterations. The modules we're in can barely handle us as is...
#16 mvincent Nov 26, 2011 18:54:15	do people play with modified rule sets and if so what are the modifications you made ? I avoid house rules since I run public games (LFR, Encounters, Lair Assault). House rules not allowed in those for obvious reasons like consistancy and to allow players to transition between groups. I try to avoid them in my home games for the same reasons (and to avoid acquiring habits that won't work in my public games). That said, my two concessions are to increase combat speed (since otherwise combats take forever... which ultimately could cause me to drop the hobby): 1) Average damage. This seems to increase the pace by about 40%, and doesn't actually seem to affect play balance (most people don't even notice or care when I do this). 2) Monsters go on the same (average) initiative. Since this effectively allows players to go in any order (even simultatiously, if desired), this increases the pace by about 100%+.
#17 Einlanzer Nov 28, 2011 15:24:01	One of the many house rules I use is a math-friendly update to PC attacks and defenses that I call Base Attack Bonus and Base Defense Bonus, respectively. Base Attack Bonus At 5th level, every character receives a +1 bonus to all attack rolls. This bonus increases to +2 at 15th level and +3 at 25th level. However, a feat bonus to attack rolls that scales with level or tier (such as Orb Expertise) instead grants its base bonus throughout all levels and tiers of play. This feature corrects a character's improperly scaling attack bonuses with respect to monster defenses while preserving the desirability of the expertise line of feats. Base Defense Bonus At 1st level, when calculating a character's Fortitude, Reflex or Will defenses, the minimum contribution from ability score modifier is either the appropriate modifier or +2, whichever is greater. This minimum increases to +3 at 11th level and +4 at 21st level. This feature offsets a character's degrading non-AC defenses in relation to ability score placement while maintaining the desirability of the various defensive feats. At 5th level, every character receives a +1 bonus to its Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses This bonus increases to +2 at 15th level and +3 at 25th level. However, a feat bonus to defenses that scales with level or tier (such as Superior Will) instead grants its base bonus throughout all levels and tiers of play. This feature corrects a character's improperly scaling non-AC defenses with respect to monster attack modifiers while preserving the desirability of the various defensive feats. Mine is pretty much identical, except I never really thought of the NAD minimum bonus. I instead tried to think of ways that both relevant stats could contribute to your defense, but haven't come up with anything that works. Pretty groovy.
#18 bone_naga Nov 28, 2011 18:51:21	Mine is pretty much identical, except I never really thought of the NAD minimum bonus. I instead tried to think of ways that both relevant stats could contribute to your defense, but haven't come up with anything that works. This was under my 3e variant, but I had a rule where all attacks and defenses applied two stats. The 2 stat defense didn't make things too difficult because attacks got 2 stats as well. I did some math and found that under that system, at least as far as combat went, players were better off spreading their scores out instead of min/maxing. Of course, this didn't necessarily become the norm either because things like spells and focus on certain skills could still make it attractive to boost a certain stat, but it was much more viable to have moderate scores spread out among your abilities. Of course, this was easier under 3e where all attacks used the same stats so it was an easy rule to implement. Doing the same under 4e would require a lot more effort since different powers for the same class might warrant different secondary stats.
#19 pvx300b Nov 29, 2011 9:16:46	Mine is pretty much identical, except I never really thought of the NAD minimum bonus. I instead tried to think of ways that both relevant stats could contribute to your defense, but haven't come up with anything that works. Pretty groovy. Well, it occured to us that NAD scaling with respect to monster attack was only part of the problem. An off-NAD that is not corrected--that is, one that is tied to an ability score you never put discretionary points into--will fall more behind, to the point where Team Monster is off the d20. (I think Square Fireballs did a series of articles on why NADs are all messed up. While I don't care for their solution, it is a fascinating read if you're into the math side of D&D.) We have found that this house rule preserves the spirit of the original design while fixing the unforgivable math error present in that same design. I didn't trouble myself with trying to explain exactly why the contribution should exist in-game; I wrote it off as an abstract concept that needed no explanation. ^_^;