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Does This Balance the Shifter?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
samuraichicken
Feb 10, 2010 20:45:35
The shifter seems a little underpowered when compared to all the other 4e races. I want to give them just a little bonus to make them more powerful, but not too much to unbalance the game. After looking at shifters for a while, I think I found something to help them out:

In addition to their other racial abilities, shifters gain a racial feat of their choice that they meet the prerequisites for as a bonus feat. This bonus feat can be retrained at later levels, but the retrained feat must be a racial feat.

When you look at shifter racial powers, most of them give a bonus to the shifter while they are using their racial power, otherwise they give a static bonus. To me, this seems the best way to add a little extra power to the shifter without unbalancing them, mostly because the player gets to choose what kind of shifter they get to play.

What do you think about this? Is it too powerful, too underpowered, or did it hit the goldilocks realm of “just right.”
#2
paroikos
Feb 11, 2010 2:30:48 I haven't found the shifter underpowered. The shifters (both breeds) have been a huge hit with my party. At least half of my primal players are shifters. They may be "underpowered" until they shift, but shifting is really good.

Longtooth shifting in particular is crazy. Longtooth Shifters make great fighters that get better as you hurt them. Wisdom is a skill used for almost every primal and divine class in some way, so they work for Paladin, Warden, Barbarian, Cleric, and we had a crazy melee Shaman at one point.

Razorclaw to me is less versatile, but Razorclaw shifting works really good with a few classes, like Predator Druids and Rogues. At the moment I have a Tempest Fighter that does +2 damage with combat advantage while shifting, and she's about to start dual-wielding rapiers, so she'll be getting extra points from her dexterity modifier with a lot of tempest powers if she has combat advantage. She's already destroying as it is, and she's only been bloodied once the whole campaign.

It really depends on your players. I've seen the combo of Strength/Wisdom and Dexterity/Wisdom with shifting only as too good to be true in my players eyes. And honestly the shifter's racial feats are way too good to give them one for free. I'd never have anyone play anything but them if I did that.
#3
babyj
Feb 11, 2010 3:17:18 Agreed, shifters are already beast (not meant to be a pun; they kick butt) as written. No need to shake things up even more in their favor.
#4
pluisjen
Feb 11, 2010 7:10:14 The only thing they could use maybe is something that works when they aren't bloodied. But a racial feat is unlikely to fix that unfortunatly.
#5
Crimson_Concerto
Feb 11, 2010 8:24:21 I don't think that Shifters are unbalanced. They're just very oddly and uniquely balanced. That doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing, and while I can certainly understand complaints about how they don't get to do very much when they're not bloodied, I think that trying to fix it from a balance perspective by giving them more stuff is just looking at it from the wrong angle.

Now, I've done a bit of thinking about the Shifter racial powers, and I've come to the realization that how often you get to use them will be very dependant on both your playstyle and your DM's playstyle. See, many DMs will have marked creatures avoid punishment at all cost and always try to attack the Defender, some DMs will even have non-marked creatures go for the Defender when possible, and some DMs will just have their creatures attack whoever's closest. All of these can mean that, depending on your Shifter's class and role and how defensively you decide to play that class and role, it may very rarely take enough damage during an encounter to active its racial power.

Try to solve this problem by not being so timid with bringing your character into the fray and asking your DM to mix up or spread out how his monsters attack every once in a while, maybe even rolling to randomly to determine what characters a monster attacks. Even if you don't have other party members who have special effects or powers that they can only use when bloodied, your Defender will appreciate not having his healing surges depleted faster than everybody else's and getting to actually use his methods of punishment every once in a while.

IF, however, neither you nor your DM are willing to change up your playstyles, then it very well may be that in the context of your specific campaign, Shifters are underpowered. In that case, I suppose that your solution may not be a terrible one...
#6
Johnathan_Vagabond
Feb 11, 2010 12:35:37 I think it would be more interesting to offer them a non-bloodied effect. Something that switches off when they become feral. A way to distinguish their civilized side from their wild one. Perhaps (because their bloodied powers are so offensive) until you first become bloodied during the encounter, you gain a +1 to all defenses. As it stands shifters have no reason not to get bloodied as soon as possible, which is supposed to be sort of a bad thing. As it stands, a shifter would only use their healing surges immediately up to their bloodied limit and poke themselves with a dagger at the start of battle (and then heal). That concept seems a little silly to me.
#7
chanter_hound
Feb 11, 2010 21:51:22 Most people don't find them underpowered at all or underwelming at all, (Or at least the loudest people.) because they pin everything on that racial feat being only slightly stronger than most racials.

Biggest reason the longtooth is any real use right now, is that it has a set of stats unseen in any other races. Otherwise it becomes like a razorclaw vs Elf or Githzari. Vs elf, who starts off with 7 movement.. The razorclaw only gets a +1 to speed and a +1 ac/reflex which imo is pretty pathetic when you compaire it to the wildstep, profiecies, and the ability to reroll any missed attack.

Then there is also the flavor abilities. Shifters have no flavor in the mechanics. It makes them pretty boring humans.
#8
Alex_
Feb 12, 2010 0:00:25 I give shifters te option to activate their power by spending a healing surge.

They can also reroll twice when using nature skill to forage or work with animals and can use it in place of Perception to follow tracks.
#9
extropymine
Mar 02, 2011 1:04:16 Just found this thread, and I was wondering what else people may have done to re-balance Shifters (razorclaws in particular).

I've played one for 21 levels now and in my opinion, the +1 AC and Reflex just doesn't matter by mid-paragon for as infrequently as it happens. It doesn't scale, like longtooth shifting does, and in the face of the essentials feats like Improved Defenses, I have started to really envy the races that get to use their power in every encounter to much greater effect.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 samuraichicken Feb 10, 2010 20:45:35	The shifter seems a little underpowered when compared to all the other 4e races. I want to give them just a little bonus to make them more powerful, but not too much to unbalance the game. After looking at shifters for a while, I think I found something to help them out: In addition to their other racial abilities, shifters gain a racial feat of their choice that they meet the prerequisites for as a bonus feat. This bonus feat can be retrained at later levels, but the retrained feat must be a racial feat. When you look at shifter racial powers, most of them give a bonus to the shifter while they are using their racial power, otherwise they give a static bonus. To me, this seems the best way to add a little extra power to the shifter without unbalancing them, mostly because the player gets to choose what kind of shifter they get to play. What do you think about this? Is it too powerful, too underpowered, or did it hit the goldilocks realm of “just right.”
#2 paroikos Feb 11, 2010 2:30:48	I haven't found the shifter underpowered. The shifters (both breeds) have been a huge hit with my party. At least half of my primal players are shifters. They may be "underpowered" until they shift, but shifting is really good. Longtooth shifting in particular is crazy. Longtooth Shifters make great fighters that get better as you hurt them. Wisdom is a skill used for almost every primal and divine class in some way, so they work for Paladin, Warden, Barbarian, Cleric, and we had a crazy melee Shaman at one point. Razorclaw to me is less versatile, but Razorclaw shifting works really good with a few classes, like Predator Druids and Rogues. At the moment I have a Tempest Fighter that does +2 damage with combat advantage while shifting, and she's about to start dual-wielding rapiers, so she'll be getting extra points from her dexterity modifier with a lot of tempest powers if she has combat advantage. She's already destroying as it is, and she's only been bloodied once the whole campaign. It really depends on your players. I've seen the combo of Strength/Wisdom and Dexterity/Wisdom with shifting only as too good to be true in my players eyes. And honestly the shifter's racial feats are way too good to give them one for free. I'd never have anyone play anything but them if I did that.
#3 babyj Feb 11, 2010 3:17:18	Agreed, shifters are already beast (not meant to be a pun; they kick butt) as written. No need to shake things up even more in their favor.
#4 pluisjen Feb 11, 2010 7:10:14	The only thing they could use maybe is something that works when they aren't bloodied. But a racial feat is unlikely to fix that unfortunatly.
#5 Crimson_Concerto Feb 11, 2010 8:24:21	I don't think that Shifters are unbalanced. They're just very oddly and uniquely balanced. That doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing, and while I can certainly understand complaints about how they don't get to do very much when they're not bloodied, I think that trying to fix it from a balance perspective by giving them more stuff is just looking at it from the wrong angle. Now, I've done a bit of thinking about the Shifter racial powers, and I've come to the realization that how often you get to use them will be very dependant on both your playstyle and your DM's playstyle. See, many DMs will have marked creatures avoid punishment at all cost and always try to attack the Defender, some DMs will even have non-marked creatures go for the Defender when possible, and some DMs will just have their creatures attack whoever's closest. All of these can mean that, depending on your Shifter's class and role and how defensively you decide to play that class and role, it may very rarely take enough damage during an encounter to active its racial power. Try to solve this problem by not being so timid with bringing your character into the fray and asking your DM to mix up or spread out how his monsters attack every once in a while, maybe even rolling to randomly to determine what characters a monster attacks. Even if you don't have other party members who have special effects or powers that they can only use when bloodied, your Defender will appreciate not having his healing surges depleted faster than everybody else's and getting to actually use his methods of punishment every once in a while. IF, however, neither you nor your DM are willing to change up your playstyles, then it very well may be that in the context of your specific campaign, Shifters are underpowered. In that case, I suppose that your solution may not be a terrible one...
#6 Johnathan_Vagabond Feb 11, 2010 12:35:37	I think it would be more interesting to offer them a non-bloodied effect. Something that switches off when they become feral. A way to distinguish their civilized side from their wild one. Perhaps (because their bloodied powers are so offensive) until you first become bloodied during the encounter, you gain a +1 to all defenses. As it stands shifters have no reason not to get bloodied as soon as possible, which is supposed to be sort of a bad thing. As it stands, a shifter would only use their healing surges immediately up to their bloodied limit and poke themselves with a dagger at the start of battle (and then heal). That concept seems a little silly to me.
#7 chanter_hound Feb 11, 2010 21:51:22	Most people don't find them underpowered at all or underwelming at all, (Or at least the loudest people.) because they pin everything on that racial feat being only slightly stronger than most racials. Biggest reason the longtooth is any real use right now, is that it has a set of stats unseen in any other races. Otherwise it becomes like a razorclaw vs Elf or Githzari. Vs elf, who starts off with 7 movement.. The razorclaw only gets a +1 to speed and a +1 ac/reflex which imo is pretty pathetic when you compaire it to the wildstep, profiecies, and the ability to reroll any missed attack. Then there is also the flavor abilities. Shifters have no flavor in the mechanics. It makes them pretty boring humans.
#8 Alex_ Feb 12, 2010 0:00:25	I give shifters te option to activate their power by spending a healing surge. They can also reroll twice when using nature skill to forage or work with animals and can use it in place of Perception to follow tracks.
#9 extropymine Mar 02, 2011 1:04:16	Just found this thread, and I was wondering what else people may have done to re-balance Shifters (razorclaws in particular). I've played one for 21 levels now and in my opinion, the +1 AC and Reflex just doesn't matter by mid-paragon for as infrequently as it happens. It doesn't scale, like longtooth shifting does, and in the face of the essentials feats like Improved Defenses, I have started to really envy the races that get to use their power in every encounter to much greater effect.