| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1rampantJun 02, 2011 1:20:24 | I mean they did a vampire class so why not a dragon? Would this be a good idea? |
| #2slobo777aJun 02, 2011 2:49:05 | Mechanically it wouldn't be a problem. Fluff-wise you are going to have some confused players when you introduce the Elf Dragon. Perhaps Half-Dragon would be more appropriate as the class name, as this is more of a template on top of race, similar to Vampire. There was a "Dragon Disciple" prestige class in 3.5, and that might be an alternative view of the fluff. Mechanically you could base it off Druid, with Dragon Form instead of Beast Form . . . |
| #3rampantJun 02, 2011 3:26:26 | Druid is a shape shifter, it encourages bouncing back and forth between forms, not something I wanna do with this. The race issue is one reason I haven't gone ahead with this already, I mean a level 7 elf dragon sounds silly. Dragon disciple however... that could work. |
| #4FedosuJun 02, 2011 12:53:22 | You could also give it a name that is a synonym of dragon, or a variation on dragon. Wyrm, Lindworm, Linnorm, Drakon, Dragua. Or even something simply like "Made Dragon" so that you have and Elf Made Dragon. Or Proto-Dragon because they are still in the process of becoming a dragon and won't properly reach that goal until they reach level whatever (probably at level 21 they would have an epic destiny called True Dragon or something like that.) I am curious as to what role you imagine for this class, or if you intend to have different types fulful different roles. The only role I can't immediately picture for a dragon would be Leader, while the other three all seem natural fits, just for different colours. |
| #5rampantJun 02, 2011 14:33:21 | Well the things most dnd dragons have in common are breath weapons, lots of sharp pointy bits, and scary as all get out. Seems like a controller to me. Not sure if it should be primal or arcane though. |
| #6FedosuJun 02, 2011 14:41:21 |
Need it be either? |
| #7rampantJun 02, 2011 14:43:28 | Well I'd prefer it to have a power source, and those two seem to be the best fits. |
| #8FedosuJun 02, 2011 15:15:35 | I would suggest Arcane then, as it has move of a random catchall magic flavour, while primal is more specifically related to the Primal spirits. Arcane also fits because the transformation into a dragon recalls the Sorcerer-Kings of Dark Sun, specifically the Dragon of Tyr and the recent article about Kalidnay. Also, were you planning on making this as more of an essentials style class like the Vampire? Because if so then it's easy to make different sub-classes that fulfil different roles while having certain aspects in common. |
| #9rampantJun 02, 2011 15:34:47 | I really don't like essentials classes, but they may be a good idea here. As for the power source I've considered a few options. Arcane is the standard catch all, but all of the major dragon types possess some elemental energy in their make up (some more than others), finally dragons have some connection to the primal spirits just like everything else native to the natural world. What if Dragon is an arcane class, with different builds/sub-classes mixing in specific powersources? Dragon King - Arcane + Psionic Land Wyrm - Arcane + Primal Hellkite - Arcane + Elemental |
| #10rampantJun 03, 2011 16:20:44 | To my knowledge there has never been a melee controller class, that means that typical controller hp is probably not enough. I need to either toss on some serious defensive boosts (especially since armor is a no-no), or boost the hp. Made Dragon My Heart is Ancient. Source: Arcane? Primary Role: Controller Secondary Role: Defender, Striker Primary Ability score: Constitution? Secondary Ability scores: Strength?, Charisma? HP at first level: 12 + constitution HP per level: 5 Weapon Proficiencies: ??? Armor Proficiencies: Cloth IMplements: Orbs (pearls), Ki foci Skills: Arcana plus 4 chosen from the class skills list Class Skills: Arcana, History, Nature, Dungeoneering, Insight, Intimidate, (suggestions please) Build Options: Dragon Disciple, Hell Kite Class Features: Fundamentum, Ritual of Apotheosis, Ritual casting, Fundamentum: Choose a damage type: Fire, Cold, Electric, Thunder, Poison, Acid, Necrotic, Radiant, or Psychic. You gain resistance 5 + 1/2 your level to that damage type. Any Power you use with the Fundamentum Keyword deals this type of damage and gains the appropriate keyword. Ritual casting: You gain the ritual caster feat. At level 1 you know a single 1st level ritual based on a skill you're trained in. At levels 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, and 30 you learn another ritual of your level or lower based on a skill you have training in. Ritual of Apotheosis: Choose one. Hellkite Ascension: You may use your Strength? modifier in place of your dexterity or intelligence score bonus to ac when wearing light or no armor. Whenever you are hit by a power that deals the same type of damage as the resistance granted by your fundamentum class feature, you can regain the use of one of your encounter powers with the fundamentum keyword. Disciple's Path: You may use your Charisma? modifier in place of your dexterity or intelligence score bonus to ac when wearing light or no armor. Whenever you are hit by a power that deals the same type of damage as the resistance granted by your fundamentum class feature you gain 5 + your Charisma modifier temporary hp. Suggestions? |
| #11Damon_TorJun 03, 2011 17:37:13 | I would think a dragon class would necessarily come with your race pre-selected: Dragon. |
| #12rampantJun 03, 2011 17:45:19 | I'd considered that actually, go all savage species on it. Another option might be to make a dragon race with an extensive racial power list. |
| #13battlemaster95Jun 05, 2011 9:43:51 | how would size factor into the class. unless I'm mistaken, there are no character classes or races that are large sized for the majority of play time. dragons are usually large size, unless this class was to be a juvenile dragon. |
| #14rampantJun 05, 2011 11:34:55 | I was thinking PPs and EDs would take care of the size thing. |
| #15RustmonsterJun 05, 2011 15:39:27 | Why not say that a character with the Dragon class must choose from a selection of Dragon races, each based on a colour of dragon? So when you choose the Dragon class, you can choose, say, Black Dragon as your race, and it would give you a bunch of Black Dragon related stuff, like Acid resistance and a Skill bonus to Stealth, etc. All of the Dragon class's elemental-based powers use an element based on your Dragon race. Give each Dragon race a breathe weapon attack as an encoutner power, similar to the Dragonborn, although some like Blue Dragons might have slightly different ones. Lots of feats to modify the Breathe Weapon based on colour, too. |
| #16MehangelJun 05, 2011 17:08:43 | I decided to try and make a dragon class a while back, and decided that honestly it isn't all that straightforward. I don't have the time to put down all the statistics down, but I suppose it came down to each type of dragon had its own power source that it drew from, so, Catastrophic = Primal, Chromatic = Arcane, Metallic = Divine, Planar = Psionic, and Scourge Dragons = Martial. Now because I haven't seen much information on either the planar or the scourge dragons, I could not very well complete those two aspects of the class. However, I could not simply give them all breathweapons as not all dragons have a breath weapon. So I gave each catagory of dragon different aspects depending on their catagory. So while Chromatic and Metallic Dragons got breath Weapons I gave the Catastrophic Dragons Auras. I also decided against forcing players to choose a dragon race, rather left it open to all races, thus allowing the dragon to shapeshift to a humanoid form. And yes I know, dragons don't really have the shapeshifting ability in 4e. As for At-Will Powers, I gave the class basic melee attacks such as Bite, Claw, etc. All of which improve by level and enhanced through feat choice. Rather than give a huge list of different encounter abilities, I gave them an encounter power that could either activate the breath weapon/aura or cast an at-will power from any class of their power source. Obviously if they seek out damage, their aura/breathweapon will be the better choice, but strategy-wise, the at-will power might give them what they need at the time. For Daily Powers, I gave them a Daily Power that gave the choice to either use any encounter power from a class of their power source, or an additional use of their breathweapon/aura. The Utilities were all based around flying and were set in stone. The first utility was like an at-will featherfall, an ability to keep oneself from dying from falling from great heights. The second was an encounter ability that allowed for flight equal to 1/2 the characters speed. The third was a daily power that granted flight speed for the rest of the encounter equal to 1/2 speed. These utilities improved or increased in power through the levels and through the use of feats. At first level the dragon character gains wings (or another physical trait in the case of scourge dragons), if he doesn't already have them. They also gain a Resistance to a set damage type associated to the specific dragon they choose, which increases as they gain levels. One large downfall of the class was that there wasn't allot of custamization as each time they gained another encounter or daily power, it was just another use of the same encounter or daily power not a new one. The dragon in Heroic Tier could change shape into either its dragon or humanoid form. While in its dragon form it could reach up to large size. I also made a paragon path for the class, adult dragon, which allowed the size be increased, but with almost no other significant benefits as size increase can be very powerful in itself. But I decided against making such a paragon path required to take, rather I would leave it open to the player to decide. However, I also made an epic destiny, Elder Wyrm, for the dragon which required the paragon path adult dragon as a prerequisite. This also increased the maximum size but also gave it some other neat abilities which activate upon becoming bloodied, Reaching 0 hit points, and death. The class could only activate the bulk of its abilities if in dragon form, unless of course you were a dragonborn or other dragon race. The class was made not so much to be balanced in comparason to the other classes, but rather to make the option available. I never could finish the class as I never had all the stats of the different dragons. But by keeping it basic and simple with few abilities, it wasn't too difficult. |
| #17rampantJun 05, 2011 20:59:44 | Ok well the first thing to figure out then is whether or not to make this an open class. I.E. is a class with a restricted race list a good idea? Maybe look at it like the Savage species monster class? or stick to an open design for any race? |
| #18mhbjarkistefJun 05, 2011 23:23:42 | I'm reading this thread from start, commenting as I read. 1# "They did a vampire class, why not a dragon?" #2 "Fluff-wise you are going to have some confused players when you introduce the Elf Dragon" "...with Dragon Form instead of Beast Form". To me, dragons are the GODS of dungeons and dragons, and I call disrespect on anyone who makes a class that allows a player to turn into a dragon at heroic or paragon tier. The dragons are epic, majestic creatures, made by a god and are among the most powerful creatures of the world. #4 "Dragon-synonyms" "Proto-Dragon, because they are still in the process of becoming a dragon..." "What role?" #5 "Arcane Controller?" I think primal, since dragons are animals I think when they're dead or lending you their power they count as "animal spirits". #8 "Essentials or not?" #9 "Mixing power sources" #??-14 "Size and stuff" Stop thinking about races, this does not have to be complicated. #15 "Dragon-races", "Dragon Colors" #17 Let's make it an open class. I think with a lot of work and many builds, we can do this. But we must keep things simple. I'm gonna go answer the two or the bigger posts in this thread. |
| #19rampantJun 06, 2011 5:41:07 | Ok open class then What about calling it the Draconic? or the Dracomancer? The role is gonna be controller because that's the one that works best with the majority of the various dragon powers from the mm which will form the backbone of the class powers I'm going for two builds one build, the hellkite(?), is based on a much more intense transition focused on quickly gaining power to hurt and terrify (thus the striker leaning), and the dragon disciple a more disciplined and philosophical approach focused around gradually mastering the power of your new form and using it to control the world around you (thus the defender leanings). I'd like advice on which ability scores to use. Also I can't decide between arcane or primal, both could work. |
| #20mhbjarkistefJun 06, 2011 11:34:09 | I see the origin of this class as either a) A man who found a way to harvest the powers of the dragons (sort of like the warlock and hexblades). This would make the power source Arcane, and can be any role, since power can be manipulated for any kind of purpose. b) A divine/primal connection to bahamut and the dragon-spirits of the world. This means that the dragons are willingly lending you power (like shaman or paladin) making the powersource Divine or Primal. We have divine heroes of all roles and primal heroes of all roles. The role of our Dragonsoul or w/e is not at all limited to the MM. I think Defender would be the best default role, since it is so easy to go from one role to another from there. For example: * A weaponmaster with combat superiority is a defender, he has a marking ability but also a class feature that does not use marking. This means a Dragonsoul can either be a defender or off-defender. * Paladin has implement attacks and the warlord has a ranged build. This means converting the dragonclass into an "artillery" is easy. * Rogue can daze, give penalties, slide and push. This means a melee class can become a controller just with the right class feature (ruthless ruffian) and power selection. * A weaponmaster can forgo armor to boost his damage. This means that a defender can turn striker with a -2 to ac and +2 to damage. We make the key ability score be Wisdom or Intelligence, based on the class' origin, and then we have a defender build with con rider, a slayer build with str riders, a leader with cha riders and so on. |
| #21rampantJun 06, 2011 12:59:56 | SLow down, I'm limiting this to two builds to start with to keep this from spiralling out of hand. I see the transformation as being very stressful on body and mind, I figured constitution or charisma would be the best stats to use (physical health and sense of self you see). However I'm not sure how to arrange it. My current idea is that constitution is primary since you need it just to survive the transformation, charisma is the secondary for the Disciple path which represents a more controlled progression from mortal to dragon. The hell-kite needs a different stat because it represents someone who is rushing whole hog and embracing the impulse and frenzy strength was the first idea but I'd love to hear better ideas. The role needs to be clearly defined, and while it's true that dragons in the MM cover all monster roles, and could be easily tweaked to fit any role, I thinki it would be cool to have a melee controller, and it happens to match well with the basic dragon abilities. |
| #22mhbjarkistefJun 06, 2011 19:48:31 | Two builds, yes sir. I agree on the Con Cha thing, although it think the dragonclass should have mutliple key ability score. Which two builds are we starting with? Possible Role Combinations: Defender/Leader Defender/Controller Striker (ranged or melee) Leader/Controller (ranged or melee) Where should we start? I'm thinking Con and Cha for most of the builds, different secondary score for some of the and then maybe one or two with a different main stat. |
| #23rampantJun 07, 2011 2:33:38 | Settle on ability scores ( i was seeing an A-shaped class with con as prime and the others as secondary, although a v-shaped class [con and cha] could work) then basic class outline and features |
| #24mhbjarkistefJun 07, 2011 8:18:54 | Defender/Leader = Con, Cha Defender/Controller = Con, Cha (benefits from Wis or Int?) Striker (melee) = Con, Str (benefits from Wis?) Striker (ranged) = Is this a magic based build? Then I think we can keep the Cha/Con build. Wis sounds cool too. Leader/Controller = Cha, Int? The Defender/Leader goes Con to survive not only combat but also the transformation that's constantly happening. Cha allows him to disipline himself and not lose control of himself during the animalistic transformation. His tertiary ability score would probably Int or Dex for his reflex, so we can just as well nail one of them down by building a class feature based on that score. That class feature would be something like virtue's touch or combat superiority, where you can choose from an array of class features that are each aimed at a specific build, but can be taken by any of them. Still, if he has a heavy shield he already gains a bonus to reflex. We could also make him benefit from wis or str. Weapon + Shield Defender/Controller Still has to survive a beating but focuses more on imbueing his hits with magic and hitting to give penalties and forced movement then damage or being sticky. Con would be your primary ability score, but you also benefit from a high char (magic) and wis/int (you need smarts to either know the techniques (int) or know when to use them (wis). Although all the riders of this build depend on Cha, int/wis would be a good stat for a class feature. Something like "You can add your intelligence modifier to all your push and pulls". Weapon + Shield (using stuff like shield-bashing and feats that are available only to shield wearers) or Weapon + Orb if we go more magical. I havent checked out the orbs so I don't know if they fit this class (enchant-wise) overrall. Striker Either we have the dragonsoul have proficiency with heavy armor, or give him a "+x to AC when not wearing heavy armor". Either way, this build's AC takes a penalty. Either in the form of "When not wearing heavy armor, you gain a +2 bonus to damage with all close and melee attacks" or "You do not gain your normal armor bonus for not wearing heavy armor. You instead gain a +2 bonus to damage with all close and melee attacks". we could even add a line that gives bonuses for dual-weilding or using weapons with the off-hand property. This class would simulate the claws and raw strength of the dragon. Con and Str is ideal. If we feel the need to add a tertiary score (which I don't) we can make it Dex (for instincts and initiative). Ranged Striker well... since the dragonsorcerer makes a very good job of being draconic ranged striker, this build is.... pointless.... Controller/Leader or Leader/Controller This is the wizard of all the builds. Cha is its primary stat and are mostly ranged attacks. This means that the other /leader and /controller builds can take implement powers from this class, but won't we as powerfull. This build is not rider-heavy and therefor its powers will be very friendly towards the /leader and /controller. I would think that this class benefits from high CON (so he can pick some other powers that those that were meant for him) and then int, since he is the wizard of the group. This build emphasizes on area attacks, and often area attacks that penalize enemies and invigorates allies. How does this sound? Two very similar builds (both defenders), one strengthy-striker, and one area-controller/leader with a different main stat. |
| #25rampantJun 07, 2011 13:34:41 | I was thinking a melee controller, with a class feature option like the barbarian's feral might that skewed it towards either the striker sub-role (hell-kite) or the defender sub-role (dragon disciple) Constitution would be primary, possibly v shape it so that con and cha cover different powers, then each of the sub roles would key off a certain other stat for their riders and stuff |
| #26GarthanosJun 08, 2011 8:52:13 | Dragonborn / Dragon Sorceror + Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies (keyword starting with an A) = just wondering.? |