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I'm still at the early stages, but I think I have enough written down to take in some feedback.
This build of course brings to mind The Final Fantasy Dragoon(lancer) which makes me ask about your plans on reach weapons? If you wanted to control the "donut shaped" threat area implementing an extended threat area through the pole arms is one option.
Also with drakes and such you could use them for extended reach as a "tag team" option between Dragoon and pet. One of them pulls a feint and the other capitolizes.
Really looking at all the ideas you put into this you could really make this class into any role. If you wanted a flexible class you could give it different class benefits depending on what drakes or dragons they choose which will put them in a certain role. A flex class that can become whatever role it needs by retraining is kinda a cool idea, but that is off the track of things I guess.
the idea is to completely replace the threatened space with a new system, Shadow of Menace.
the shadow if menace is a zone of threat that's shape and size vary by power. It can be a donut, it can be a circle, it can be a line, it can be a curved wall.
As to the weapon question, I don't have plans to push the dragoon to spears all that much. I want spears to be a good option, but not the only option.
using throwing spears and spears with reach simply makes sense since unlike a fighter or warden a dragoon will not need to be adjacent. Just like a assaulting sword mage will often use a glave, or a paladin will use a trident.
Which means I'll likely have powers where polearms/spears improve the power, I don't think I'll make any powers that require them.
----flex class----
Yeah it's flexable, but for instance to really function as a striker the dragoon will need the enemies to attack their allies. The enemies always have the option of delaying their action and attacking the dragoon.
That and I'm not planning on adding any leader capacity.
Ok your links don't get me to any actual crunch beyond the hp/profs/skills so unless I'm missing something you're trying to come up with a flexible mark mechanism.
I wanna suggest using the drake, build the drake into the marking mechanism. Use its attacks and any drake powers to mark foes, and then turn around and let the Dragoon itself focus on punishing the marks.
Ok your links don't get me to any actual crunch beyond the hp/profs/skills so unless I'm missing something you're trying to come up with a flexible mark mechanism.
I wanna suggest using the drake, build the drake into the marking mechanism. Use its attacks and any drake powers to mark foes, and then turn around and let the Dragoon itself focus on punishing the marks.
flexible mark/OA mechanism and flexible punishment system.
And yeah, no real crunch yet. In my experience to many people write the crunch before they refine the concepts, and updating the crunch as the concepts change bog things down. Which is why I haven't written it down yet.
I like your idea about the drake. On the dragoon's turn have the drake attack and set out the shadow of menace, then on the enemy's turn have the dragoon enforce the shadow of menace.
Acting twice every turn is a key part of the concept. (once on your turn, once in reaction)
The problem I see with current defenders is that all their powers simply define what they do with on their turn. With their equally important reaction attack only being defined by class features and feats.
Drake marks, Dragoon enforces, simple enough.
Now how should the marks be enforced? Attacks? auto-damage? interruptions?
Drake marks, Dragoon enforces, simple enough.
Now how should the marks be enforced? Attacks? auto-damage? interruptions?
for the dex build Immediate inturupt or reaction attacks. Likely charges or ranged attacks.
for the cha build, I'm thinking the enforcement should be additional penalties. like reducing the damage by the dragoon's charisma.
Sort of like the sword mage's choice of aegis of assault vs. aegis of defense?
So if a guy violates the mark by attack anything other than the drake the Dragoon can make a basic melee or ranged attack against the stupid schmuck if he's a dex user, if he's the cha build the damage gets reduxed instead. Sounds workable.
Sort of like the sword mage's choice of aegis of assault vs. aegis of defense?
So if a guy violates the mark by attack anything other than the drake the Dragoon can make a basic melee or ranged attack against the stupid schmuck if he's a dex user, if he's the cha build the damage gets reduxed instead. Sounds workable.
Sort of, but with the whole marking system changing depending on what power you use that round.
So for one power you would mark an area burst 1 within 5 and another round you would mark a close blast 3. And with the enforcement changing by the power too. One round an attack penalty, another round a counter attack.
For the drake powers some would be dex based, some would be cha based, some wouldn't vary by stat.
Well the variable mark is easy, just give the drake a variety of attack options, walls, bursts, blasts, single target, multi-target, melee attacks, ranged attacks, walls, chain effects, cluster effects. Then have each power detail how the mark is enforced in this case.
In fact you could probably get away with never giving the Dragoon a direct attack power at all.
Also since the drake is gonna be doing alot of the melee attacking the Dragoon probably doesn't need a lot of HP.
Well the variable mark is easy, just give the drake a variety of attack options, walls, bursts, blasts, single target, multi-target, melee attacks, ranged attacks, walls, chain effects, cluster effects. Then have each power detail how the mark is enforced in this case.
In fact you could probably get away with never giving the Dragoon a direct attack power at all.
Also since the drake is gonna be doing alot of the melee attacking the Dragoon probably doesn't need a lot of HP.
the variable marking is easier than that. The move part of the full action is setting up the mark.
and yeah the dragoon will only need striker lever HP for any build (only one build has the drakes but the other builds have ways of handling the low HP as well)
You sure you wanna do that? I mean using the drake attacks seems to be the easiest way to set up that variable mark. I'd make all the builds use it. If you've got another idea lets see it, I'm curious.
You sure you wanna do that? I mean using the drake attacks seems to be the easiest way to set up that variable mark. I'd make all the builds use it. If you've got another idea lets see it, I'm curious.
basing the marks on any kind of attack limits the flexibility. That and the basic mechanic is to have a Shadow of Menace, which is a zone where enemies that start their turn or move into the zone are marked.
Not that I think having the drake attacks mark the targets is a bad idea, just that I don't want to be limited to it. When the class is complete ideally there will be around 60 different marking subsystems.
Some will be based on what you attack, some on what your drake attacks, some on move actions where you leap up into the air to high you don't exist on the battle field, some on minor actions laying out a line in the sand where if enemies cross you'll attack them.
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updated with a rough draft at will
One thing that kinda popped in me haed was maybe using the drake as aerial reinforcement. Like calling in a bombing run with the breath weapon. How to mechanic that I'm not sure, but you could use different attack patterns like a strafe (the curved wall), a blast (circle) or a breath spin (donut) as a "trick" learned every couple levels like powers.
Strafing run, even a carpet bomb is easy, It's a drake attack during which the drake flyies x squares and targets x opponents with a ranged attack, for the carpet bomb verion enemies adjecent to the target also get damaged.
that would suggest a controller secondary for the drakemaster build
I think you'll find that most good defender builds have controller elements, only inverted, where a controller tries to slow down the enemy as much as possible, a defender specifically makes getting away from him nigh impossible.
Also consider alternate mark conditions, maybe some attacks mark guys they miss instead of the ones they hit, or mark the guys adjacent to the guy they attack.
As for this shadow thing you keep bringing up, I dunno if you need it. The drake sounds like a more than workable method to achieve the variable mark mechanics. Could you give us a bit more of an idea how it would work? Honestly you need to come up with the class features before worrying about at-wills.
I think you'll find that most good defender builds have controller elements, only inverted, where a controller tries to slow down the enemy as much as possible, a defender specifically makes getting away from him nigh impossible.
Also consider alternate mark conditions, maybe some attacks mark guys they miss instead of the ones they hit, or mark the guys adjacent to the guy they attack.
As for this shadow thing you keep bringing up, I dunno if you need it. The drake sounds like a more than workable method to achieve the variable mark mechanics. Could you give us a bit more of an idea how it would work? Honestly you need to come up with the class features before worrying about at-wills.
The shadow is mostly for the other builds, only one build will have the drake. And I do think the wording needs improvement.
As to class features, those can wait since the marking mechanics are IN the attack powers, Just like barbarian's striker damage is IN their powers.
Ah ok that makes sense. The question now becomes: Why do you need a non-drakemaster build?
My advice is to make the drake companion the core class feature. That way you can eliminate the need for this shadow power which really sounds more like something for a Shadow Defender, and focus on two builds rather than three.
Plus you can have the Build choice affect the drake stats, and intro a new drake variant with each new build option.
the shadow is a bit misleading, I still want to use it, just with a better name for it. The idea is that the dragoon leaps up into the air ala FF dragoon jump attacks, where the dragoon can not be targeted while he's in the air. The shadow is the area where he can land.
But as to giving all dragoons drakes, that might be the way to go. Currently the class is lacking for class features since the marking system is incorporated into the powers.
Ok see that's just not gonna fly in 4e. Literally, the whole dragoon jump thing really doesn't work in a game with a turn based systesm and allowances for 3-d. Well it does but it's no where near as spectacularly broken. You jump whooooo I'm so scared.
Ok see that's just not gonna fly in 4e. Literally, the whole dragoon jump thing really doesn't work in a game with a turn based systesm and allowances for 3-d. Well it does but it's no where near as spectacularly broken. You jump whooooo I'm so scared.
the jump system already works in 4E. It's based on the voidsoul's Void Assumption which already exists in game. The dragoon doesn't jump to somewhere, he jumps to nowhere. With his shadow being the only thing that exists.
Then either an enemy triggers the mark and the dragoon descends down to enforce his mark or the dragoon descends at the end of the turn.
Since he doesn't actually go anywhere, 3-d is a non issue, he can even function just fine in a dungeon.
Right a defender who doesn't exist (and thus can't be attacked) until someone violates the mark. Thus ensuring that the mark must be violated and thus the punisment is either un avoidable or the Dragoon gets locked in the non-realm because the enemy is just standing there. Seems like sort of an all or nothing play, which is great, assuming the rest of the party can handle whatever you miss.
You're trying to build an OP striker mechanic into a defender.
Right a defender who doesn't exist (and thus can't be attacked) until someone violates the mark. Thus ensuring that the mark must be violated and thus the punisment is either un avoidable or the Dragoon gets locked in the non-realm because the enemy is just standing there. Seems like sort of an all or nothing play, which is great, assuming the rest of the party can handle whatever you miss.
right, though note that the enemy always has the option of delaying their action until the dragoon lands, then attacking the dragoon.
You're trying to build an OP striker mechanic into a defender.
Yes I'm building a striker mechanic, but I'm aiming for a balanced striker mechanic.
The dragoon will be able to get to near striker level DPR, but only while he's not defending the party nearly as well as a normal defender.
That's also why the dragoon has striker level HPs.
It's not that much different than the kind of tricks you can pull off with an assaulting sword mage. Attack on your turn, then set up a no win situation that lets you attack once more on the enemy's turn.
Though that's really just one of the three builds, the rampaging build. The other builds will stay on the ground.
Ok then your problem is trying to cram all the abilities of 20 odd years of dragoon Final fantasy characters into one class.
the problem with the jump you're talking about is that it sounds like the best parts of phasing, insubstancial, invisible, and concealment which might be cool as a higher level power, but not as an every single turn deal.
Ok then your problem is trying to cram all the abilities of 20 odd years of dragoon Final fantasy characters into one class.
that and more, but I don't see that as a problem, the FF dragoons never have had that many powers so there's not that much to fit in.
the problem with the jump you're talking about is that it sounds like the best parts of phasing, insubstancial, invisible, and concealment which might be cool as a higher level power, but not as an every single turn deal.
it's not really like not phasing or insubstantial.
it's equivalent to being invisible and hidden, except the enemy knows where you can strike. They can't target you but they can avoid you or wait for you to come out.
If it's really too much for an at-will hmm, what if the jumping powers where limited to encounter and daily powers? Thought I'd rather have it as an at will, what would make it balanced? Granting CA? Being targetable by ranged attacks (any ranged attack that could target the dragoon's shadow could target the dragoon)?
I know it's not an easy thing to balance. Which is why the crunch of the class is so bare at the moment, until I figure out how to implement the more interesting aspects of the class in a balanced way there's no point in it.
Honestly I think you have two different classes here.
Keeper - Has a drake companion
Dragoon - Fights like a rabbit on meth
Honestly I think you have two different classes here.
Keeper - Has a drake companion
Dragoon - Fights like a rabbit on meth
perhaps, but it's the rabbit on meth that I'm aiming for, I just didn't think it was a full class so I made the other two builds.
If I did split off the Keeper, what role would it be?
Primal defender, as I recall the jumping dragoons form the FF series have a more arcane feel, possibly a pact with dragons sort of like the warlock pacts?
So the Tamer (drake master) would be primal defender (with heavy controller elements), While the Dragoon is more of an arcane striker, and in fact could be made into a warlock pact.
Your biggest problem is the leap effect you're going for. Suspending the dragoon x feet in the air is just silly in DnD, someone will use ranged attacks. The other problem you get is that the idea of the jump is to put the dragoon out of reach before unleashing a heavy attack. Which is either counter productive or broken. Counter productive if it turns the class into a striker, Broken if this causes the monsters to be unable to target the dragoon and thus never be able to avoid the punishment.
A defender is sticky because it punishes those who violate the mark, and encourages monsters to fight the defender first. If the defender is out of reach, the monsters have to violate the mark or waste their turn. Meaning that the Dragoon is no longer sticky.
a more arcane feel
in what way are they arcane?
Your biggest problem is the leap effect you're going for.
It has been since the first attempt I made at the class.
Which is either counter productive or broken.
It's both.
Mechanically it works, but balance wise it prevents you from functioning as a defender while making you a powerful striker.
However I think if I make the dragoon a strong defender and weak striker, he'll be able to function as a modest defender and modest striker.
a brutal rogue with repost strike can do 3d8 + str + dex + enh + 1d8 + str + enh ~= 27
a rampaging dragoon can do 1d12 + str + dex + enh + 1d12 + str + enh ~= 26
the brutal rogue and rampaging dragoon will have about the same HP, AC etc and the brutal rogue will be doing a better job defending with OAs and setting up flanks
the brutal rogue and rampaging dragoon both have the same dependence on monster behavior such that they can't pull off peak DPR every round.
So how is the dragoon better than the rogue?
at best he's defender|striker where the others are defender\striker
though that's me defending my baby. I'm likely making it OP. What I'm looking for are ways of wording it so it's clear and ways of making it balanced. So the baby doesn't get tossed out with the bath water.
Suspending the dragoon x feet in the air is just silly in DnD
agreed.
thus never be able to avoid the punishment.
consider the current power I have posted
a kobold would have no trouble avoiding it, simply shift then move then attack, the dragoon would not be able to enforce the mark since the kobold would be out of range.
Mostly because Freya dressed like a red mage, and none of the Dragoons expressed any sort of religious affiliation (to my somewhat limited knowledge). That and the FF characters I know (7 and beyond) tend to avoid dressing in hides or wielding weapons visibly constructed of bones and teeth as their signature picks. Mostly because FF doesn't generate a very primal feel I guess. Most of the non-martial abilities are classified into white magic (divine), black magic (arcane), or blue magic (I have no ******* clue).
However you must admit that the warlock's move and get concealment trick is pretty close to this nowhere jump you're talking about.
taking the dragoon as a class
What if the Dragoon's shadow is a basic ranged mark effect with a punisment (like the pally or swordmage), but powers offer different opions for placing the shadow and replace or enhance the punisment.
You have the right basic idea, it just needed a little simmering to get to the good stuff.
THe rampaging at will triggers on both movement and when the target attacks someone besides you. seems broken for an at will.
Maybe instead the at will powers confer basic marks rather than using a seperate class feature?
However you must admit that the warlock's move and get concealment trick is pretty close to this nowhere jump you're talking about.
Mechanically similar, but style wise different.
most FF dragoons are simply martial. Some are martial + some spiritual which in 4E is primal.
Kind of like the barbarian. Note the barbarian dragon rages.
What if the Dragoon's shadow is a basic ranged mark effect with a punisment (like the pally or swordmage), but powers offer different opions for placing the shadow and replace or enhance the punisment.
that's pretty much the idea
You have the right basic idea, it just needed a little simmering to get to the good stuff.
hence this thread 
THe rampaging at will triggers on both movement and when the target attacks someone besides you. seems broken for an at will.
it's about the same as the triggers for fighter's combat challenge/OA if they're adjacent to the target.
If the trigger on move wasn't their the target could move then attack and the dragoon couldn't touch him.
Maybe instead the at will powers confer basic marks rather than using a seperate class feature?
at the moment there are no class features, it's all just the one power
My point about the at-will comes from looking at the swordmage and the pally. Both of whom can range mark, but have to wait for the guy to attack someone else to trigger the punishment.
However if we ditch the shadow as a seperate ability (keep it as a conceptual device), you're right we could get away with powerful mark/punishments as part of the individual powers. THat at will might be a little over the top (especially that take to the air part, i think that's what kills it really, especially since we have no idea what it means). However I think you'll have to draw the "jump" effects as utilities.
let me try and define it
You don't exist on the map, no line of sight or line of effect to anyone and you can only use decent actions. Decent actions are immediate actions triggered by marks that cause you to land in or adjacent to your shadow. At the beginning of your next turn if you haven't landed you land in or adjacent to your shadow.
Maybe as part of a utility or daily power, possibly a high level encounter power.
Until then you're gonna have to settle for lesser defensive benefits.
If you keep the Dragoon as a defender he's got to offer some way for the monsters to use their actions without invoking the punisment or being shut down. Usually defenders do this by getting attacked themselves. Thus the high AC/HP package most of them get.
Your guy offers no such option. Meaning he's either a OP Striker or Controller, not a defender.
A balanced defender has to give the monsters a choice, at least some of the time. By dissapearing into the aether every time you almost never get attacked yourself, will almost always punish instead of preventing, and loose all stickyness because you've turned into an Op striker that the monsters will just have to live with while they kill off your buddies because they can't actually do anything about you.
If you want to offer some defensive benefits to the Dragoon while he waits for the monsters to provoke him, that's legitimate. This overwhelming can't touch me effect is too much for at-wills.
offer some way for the monsters to use their actions without invoking the punisment or being shut down.
the monster simply waits until the dragoon's turn when the dragoon is forced to land next to him.
or since we're likely talking about multiple monsters, after the dragoon lands to punish one monster the other monsters can attack him as normal.
the dragoon isn't invincible all the time, just some of the time. So the monsters do have choices.
and yes the rampaging build isn't a traditional defender, he's more like an invoker being powered by enemies attacking allies. Which might be OP if he where either invincible or doing better DPR than a striker. But he's far from invincible and unless the monsters give in to his tactics every round he's not going to be pulling off striker damage.
Note that he doesn't do more damage than a fighter/swordmage/warden who has a marked monsters attack allies each round. And swordmages are just as good at setting up no win situations.
One change I'm thinking of marking is having the leap into the air provoke opportunity attacks. Limiting the dragoon to polearms, heavy thrown and one handed weapon (or kobolds).
I guess the question is does the Dragoon's defense really need to be perfect every time?
I guess the question is does the Dragoon's defense really need to be perfect every time?
No. It's just the best idea I've come up with.
I'm open to a mechanic that captures the jump without the perfect defense.
And while I do want an at-will with the mechanic the build certainly doesn't need to have it part of all of it's powers.
I want to capture the essence of a FF dragoon. Part of the essence is jumping past the top of the screen.
It seems broken, but the next results aren't a character that over shadows other builds or trivializes encounters. Where then does broken become a factor?
Well the way I see it you only get attacked after you've either locked your targets down for a whole turn, or attacked at least twice. Meaning that for you the encounter is trivial while everyone else in the party gets beaten down on because their meatshield wasn't there to physically block the path.
Here's what I'm seeing, make the "leap" independent from the attack powers, and tie it into the utilities, also start with lesser benefits like concealment or insubstantial before getting to the leap beyond the sky thing at higher levels.
Well the way I see it you only get attacked after you've either locked your targets down for a whole turn, or attacked at least twice. Meaning that for you the encounter is trivial while everyone else in the party gets beaten down on because their meatshield wasn't there to physically block the path.
Here's what I'm seeing, make the "leap" independent from the attack powers, and tie it into the utilities, also start with lesser benefits like concealment or insubstantial before getting to the leap beyond the sky thing at higher levels.
the rampaging build is a secondary defender, assume the party has a primary defender or a beefy non defender like a rageblood barbarian or swarm druid.
And note the dragoon has the same issue that the barbarian has, great at getting into melee, lousy at getting out of it. As soon as the dragoon gets bogged down in melee.... much harder than trivial for him.
with the minor change of making it provoke OAs the current at will is very hard to use two rounds in a row.
How do I grant concealment or insubstantial with a jump power?