Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 DarkChipmunk Jun 26, 2010 7:48:54	I love the Druid. I love the concept of the Druid, the flavor behind the class, and expecially the way 4th edition handled Wild Shape in a way that makes it a fun ability that isn't broken (and at will, no less!). But Druids who like their Wild Shape don't play well with other classes. Oh, sure, you could pick non-Beast-Form powers with your Druid Hybrid side or Multiclass feats, but that defeats the purpose of being able to turn into a beast in the first place! I seek a solution to this. Has anyone about created or concived of a method by which to allow other classes' powers to function usefully with Wild Shape? Some feat or magic item that would let me, for example, use my Ranger powers while in Beast Form (perhaps with some sort of 'claw-type' weapons available for weapon-based attacks, even?). Even 'crossing over' such powers to a limited extent (only powers with a given keyword, or of a given source, or something) would be preferable to no options at all. If this would better be posted in a different forum for better results, please let me know. This is something that has been plaguing me since the Druid was released. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ My attempts at possible solutions: Heroic Feats: - Wild Warrior Prerequisite: Druid, wild shape power Benefit: When assuming wild shape, you may have any number of melee weapons you are currently wielding meld into your form as well. Your beast form has one natural weapon appropriate to its appearance for each such weapon melded this way, each having the weapon type, proficiency bonus, damage dice, and magical properties and powers of the melded weapon, and each retaining their status as one-handed or two-handed depending on the manner they were wielded at the time wild shape was used. You may make melee basic attacks with any natural weapon you gain this way.  Choose a class. While you are in Beast Shape, you may use melee weapon powers from that class (and related paragon paths) as though they had the Beast-Form keyword. - Run With the Beast Prerequisites: Druid, Ranger, wild-shape power, beast companion class feature Benefit: While you are in beast form, you may use powers with the Beast keyword as though they has the Beast-Form keyword as well. If such a power would require you to make a melee weapon attack. you do so with a proficiency bonus of +2 and damage die of 1d8, unless you already possess a natural weapon in Beast Shape. Beast powers which are also Ranged Weapon powers can't be used this way.
#2 BRJN Jul 06, 2010 20:01:58	I'm away from rulebooks, but I believe that a wild shaped Druid brings along his implements and drops his shield/weapons.  If so, a feat (based on Swordmage swordbond) to allow a wild shaped Druid to bring along - but not use - one particular weapon (his magic weapon, I expect) while in beast form would be appropriate.  If you want a stretch, create a W-based Beast Form at-will with prerequisite: must have the above feat. As I see it, though, having to drop your man-made tools is just a trade-off for getting in touch with your inner nature.
#3 urpriest Jul 06, 2010 21:28:13	I'm away from rulebooks, but I believe that a wild shaped Druid brings along his implements and drops his shield/weapons.  If so, a feat (based on Swordmage swordbond) to allow a wild shaped Druid to bring along - but not use - one particular weapon (his magic weapon, I expect) while in beast form would be appropriate.  If you want a stretch, create a W-based Beast Form at-will with prerequisite: must have the above feat. As I see it, though, having to drop your man-made tools is just a trade-off for getting in touch with your inner nature. Quick Stow already does the above, minus the at-will.
#4 Bluewyrm Jul 07, 2010 15:43:50	Well, easy way to let Druid use his Beast form with other classes... give Druids and unarmed strike, equivalent to the Monk's.  They can use this unarmed strike wherever another power would reference [W]. So for instance, if Druid's "natural attack" was 1d8, +3 prof, off-hand, he could use it with a Ranger's Twin Strike so that each attack would do 1d8.  You'll probably need to tinker with the balance on it a bit, maybe off-hand or +3 prof is too much, dunno. Or make it cost a feat.... call it "Natural Warrior" or something, and it let's them use powers with the Weapon keyword even while in their beastform.
#5 DarkChipmunk Jul 07, 2010 21:39:15	Oho! I like the idea of that 'Natural Warrior' unarmed-strike idea. Something like Natural Warrior [Feat] Prerequisite: Druid, wild shape power Benefit: While in Beast form, you possess natural weaponry. The exact physical nature of the weapon may vary, however it is always an 'unarmed' class weapon with a +3 proficiency bonus, 1d8 base damage, and the off-hand property. You are considered proficienty in this weapon. You may use Weapon attack powers (including melee basic attacks), and Implement attack powers which can use your natural attack as an implement, while in beast form as though they had teh Beast-Form keyword and you were wielding the necessary melee weapon(s) to use them. (Perhaps add something here that would allow you to enchant this natural weapon, or to treat it as though it were enchanted as a weapon you were wielding at the time you assumed Beast Shape?) And posibly related to that: Mystic Beast [Feat] Prerequisite: Druid, wild shape power Benefit: When you assume beast form while you are wielding an implement associated with another class, that implement melds with your form as well and you may use your Implement powers requiring it as though they had the Beast-Form keyword.
#6 urpriest Jul 07, 2010 22:03:48	Do you intend powers like Twin Strike to work with this feat? Currently you're only giving the druid one natural weapon. Mystic Beast should probably work for one class only.
#7 DarkChipmunk Jul 08, 2010 6:27:21	Hmm. Well, my intent with it was that you could count as wielding any melee weapons you needed to be wielding using your natural weaponry. So with something like Twin Strike, you would have as many natural weapon attacks as needed to qualify for the requirements to use. And yeah, Mystic Beast should probably require you to pick a class. In any event, these feats should help a Hybrid or Multiclass druid not to be gimped compared to other hybrids and multiclasses. Hopefully without being overpowered in the process. The last thing we need is Druids having the 'broken' stigma again :P
#8 Antillious Jul 09, 2010 13:57:28	The trick with something like this is that you are creating a weapliment. There really needs to be a bit of a trade off with giving druids access to these weapon powers. I'd suggest that the feat give the player a choice, when you change using wild shape you pick either your current implement setup or these unarmed weapons, not both. In the worst case you have to change out and change back to start using your druid implements again. I mean, at this point a wild shaped druid can't even do a melee basic attack. Right now with this one feat you are offering them a HUGE boost if you give them weapons, the ability to do melee attacks, access to melee powers, AND they can keep their implements as well?!!?! I'd probably suggest a line of feats to slowly give you more flexability. Increased die size, increased prof, ability to enchant and finally the option to also keep your implements. Or turn it into a PP instead of a line of feats.
#9 rampant Jul 10, 2010 11:27:15	Here's my suggestion a feat for druids that gives their beast form natural attacks, like the gnoll feat, two +3 prof 1d6 off-handers, that have the same enchantment/abilities as the totem/staff the druid was using before he shifted, possibly even using wisdom for the attack stat - lets call this feat beast warrior that fixes the potential no basic attacks in beast mode problem that some druids suffer from (there might be a power or two that can be used as basic attacks but I don't remember) Improved beast warrior Requires: Beast warrior, druid Benefit: While in beast form your powers with the weapon keyword also gain the beast keyword.
#10 urpriest Jul 10, 2010 12:09:55	that fixes the potential no basic attacks in beast mode problem that some druids suffer from (there might be a power or two that can be used as basic attacks but I don't remember) Two of the existing beast form powers are basic attacks, and a druid will almost always take one of them because they're both fairly good. That said, I think your idea in general is solid, but you're currently not doing what you intend to do with the first feat. "Melee basic attack" doesn't have the beast form keyword, so even if the druid is armed (which, incidentally, they should be anyway, there's nothing that says a druid loses their normal unarmed attack in beast form) they can't use the power with the weapon you're giving them.
#11 rampant Jul 10, 2010 12:55:51	ok so the first feat should give basic melee attacks with the claws the beast keyword. Beast warrior [General] Requirements: Druid, wild shape power Benefits: While in beast form you have two "claw" weapons and are considered armed. These "claws" are part of the unarmed weapon group, have a +3 proficiency bonus, deal 1d6 base damage, and have the off-hand property. Your basic melee attacks gain the beast form keyword. Special: You cannot enchant these claws, however if you have a staff or totem implement the claws gain the implement's enchantment. (this does not allow you to gain extra uses of any item powers the weapon may grant.)
#12 DarkChipmunk Jul 11, 2010 7:11:52	Hmm... On the one hand, I sorta see where giving them a weapon -and- full access to Weapon powers in beast form is a lot at once... But at the same time, as was pointed out, Druids tend to -already- have a Melee Basic equivalent to work with (as well as having a number of existing beast-form powers that are melee reach), so this isn't really giving them something they don't already have in many cases, in some cases better. A paragon path wouldn't be acceptable at this point, since the entire purpose is to give the an otherwise crippled character design functionality from the word go. Costing a feat or two to do this seems fair. Limiting the feats to only work with one chosen class's powers (and melee basics) seems to also make sense. Incidentally, would it be fair to allow attack powers which don't require you to personally attack to be used while in beast form, such as some of the Ranger's Beast powers in which only the Beast Companion attacks, or various Shaman's Spirit powers that originate from the Spirit rather than the character, without charging a feat or such? A lot of good ideas flying around so far. I can definitely work with this with my DM as a start (or figure out h ow I want to do it when I DM, for that matter).