However, my homebrew setting encourages mixed race of all sorts, and I'd like to figure out some general rules for it, that are at least balanced and self-consistent. I'd like comments on balance - loopholes I've missed or powers that won't fit nicely.
A general procedure for creating a mixed race character focussing on the mechanics
Starting with two races (call them A and B):
1. Stat bonuses. Choose the stat bonuses from A or B. You may not mix and match. You automatically get the defence bonus from the same race.
2. Skills. Choose skill bonus from A or B. This includes skills that are bonus trained skills. You may not mix and match.
2a. Languages. Choose languages from A or B. You may not mix and match.
3. Feats. You get NONE of the bonus or automatic feats from either race. However, you qualify for feats as a member of both races.
4. Proficiencies. You get NONE of the automatic racial proficiencies with weapons or armour. You may qualify for feats to buy those proficiencies.
5. Powers and Effects. In general, you get powers, special race defenses and special combat bonuses from BOTH races. However, each power is downgraded as follows:
5a. At-Will powers become Encounter powers. This includes the Human bonus At-Will (and any similar granting of class powers as At-Will - such as a Half-Elf with Versatile Master)
5b. Encounter powers become Daily powers. You may not use two racial Daily powers in the same encounter. This includes the Half-Elf's Dilettante (and any similar granting of class powers as Encounter)
5c. Daily powers, remain Daily, PLUS they require the expenditure of an Action Point to use them. You may not use two racial Daily powers in the same encounter.
5d. Always-on combat effects (e.g. Tiefling's Resist Fire) - either halve numerical value of effect (if number can be greater than 1), or gain the following rider: At-Will; Minor - The power is active until the end of your next turn.
5e. Conditionally-on combat effects (e.g. gain extra action when enemy bloodied) are treated in the same way as 5d. You must still meet the conditions to gain the benefit.
6. Combat Action Modifiers. e.g. Dwarven Resilience. Become Daily or Encounter based on the action that they apply to. E.g. Dwarven Resilience becomes a Daily option, because it modifies an Encounter ability.
7. Saving throw bonuses. Are halved.
8. Size and Movement. Choose from either A or B. The choices are made from the same race and may not be mixed.
9. Vision. This is the "average" vision from both races, rounding down, with Normal = 1, Low-Light = 2, and Darkvision = 3. So Normal + Low-Light (=average 1.5) is Normal etc.
X. Other modifiers. If a modifier can be applied at half value - rounding down as usual - e.g. Draconic Heritage - then use that. If not, then the modifier does not apply to the Dual Race character (e.g. Trance is not available to a Human/Eladrin Dual Race).
What if you make each race a feat? yeah a 1st level only feat that gives you one of the races benefits and opens up up the racial feats.
It might work, but I think that would be too powerful for many racial features (such as the standard racial powers). So they'd still need tweaking. At which point the feats would just be a feat tax for "being Dual" which I'd like to avoid.
I think it's a matter of picking the right features. Look at the revenant feats.
That becomes a much larger task, because the features will need to individually assessed for balance. Each race would need a "Dual Feat Set" defined.
My OP is about a process that can be used in general, based on standard race descriptions, and will hopefully result in a final balanced playable dual race, without a case-by-case design stage.
I feel like a job like this should be something like either
A- Hybrid classes. Each race gets its own write up and go from there.
B- Racial heritage feats. This is probably a lot more work actually, but I feel like the end result would be better. Take one get skill boosts and treated as for feats, take two gain limited power, take three and gain a static feature ALA fire resistance or dwarven stability.
Your way seems too prone to min max everyone wants to be a half X half Y, instead of a plain Z. Leaves it open to the pick and choose idea of "Grab the features i want and skip the ones i dont".
Re-stating my goals (rather than my solution), seeing if anyone has other suggestions or feedback:
1) I want to provide basic racial description block for any arbitrary combination of two races. To enable play to start with such a dual-race character, the bare minimum (that cannot be covered well with "racial heritage" feat idea) is: Stat bonuses, Skill bonuses, Languages, Types of perception (darkvision, low-light etc)
2) I want any Dual race PC to have access to racial features of both races, with at least one recognisable/signature ability from each race at level 1. I am OK with some kind of "racial heritage" feat or points system for that part. My OP is one solution that I have been considering - basically going through all listed abilities and reducing their power level.
3) I expect the features from each combined race to be less good in some way than the equivalent that a single race PC would get. A "revenant/warforged" should not be a munchkin option.
4) It should not be possible, at least not in Heroic and Paragon tiers, to have a Dual race PC that was fully equivalent to one of its compnent races, plus "bolt-ons" from the other race.
5) I want any Dual race PC to meet general race guidelines of being usable for any class, and well-balanced for combat gameplay in comparison to single race options. If in doubt, I'd like a system that errs on the side of slightly weaker for the Dual race character (where I can provide homebrewed corrections by granting bonuses later if the system didn't work for a specific combination).
On random thoought: It would be nice to offer Dual race characters an Epic Destiny which was essentially getting the full unmodified benefits of being in both races at the same time (including all stat bonuses, feats, powers etc etc). I expect this is comparable balance-wise to other Epic Destinies.
Selecting your race is a step that every player does, anyway, so having a new option there doesn't cost you somewhere else (in feats) - and I agree with your design goals. As long as the hybrid-race is an intentionally weaker option, and generally err against the character, it won't be nearly as prone to abuse. That is not to say that there won't be some race-class combinations that might work out better for a specific build - but that's true of the normal races too.
I've been working on somethign similar for a homebrew world I am working on. I expect to borrow some of these ideas for you, but if you're interested, I could post up some of the differences to bounce them off of you. I would also be interested in hearing about any other methods that you considered, and tossed out in favor of the OP.
I was hoping to make things more formulaic, and less reliant on me creating a "hybrid" selection of features for each race. For example, if a player wanted to run a half-elf/warforged combo, I'd like to be able to stat that, make it playable as a PC race, and have it feel like it really was that combination from level 1, without effectively creating a custom set of feats for that player.
On random thoought: It would be nice to offer Dual race characters an Epic Destiny which was essentially getting the full unmodified benefits of being in both races at the same time (including all stat bonuses, feats, powers etc etc). I expect this is comparable balance-wise to other Epic Destinies.
Then I feel like you ought to bite the bullet and use your guidelines you just wrote up to make a hybrid race write up for each of the races. It is more work up front, but you will get a better end result.
I actually think this would make a better paragon path honestly. I also think you'd have to go and do this for each race on a case by case basis. Epic destinies usually have a "I can't die anymore" clause, even if it is a little more vaguely worded than that. Being treated as 2 races is just sort of Eh, keeping in paragon paths like the gensai one where you get two manifestations.
I've been working on somethign similar for a homebrew world I am working on. I expect to borrow some of these ideas for you, but if you're interested, I could post up some of the differences to bounce them off of you. I would also be interested in hearing about any other methods that you considered, and tossed out in favor of the OP.
Absolutely please post any of your ideas here that you are happy to share.
The only idea I have not posted was tying racial abilities to spending Action Points: The character only gets access to racial powers in an encounter after spending an AP. It would be simpler, and balanced in a way, but I couldn't keep it simple with always-on powers, and also I think it had some other problems.
First of all, I like the system you proposed in the OP. Its simple and elegant, and it would probably work just fine. In fact, in most of the examples I have come up with, it would probably PREVENT more abuse than it causes, but in my notes I wanted both races to matter when determining ability scores - since I think those are the biggest factors when a PC selects a race. I may not end up using either of these ideas when I run the game, but I'd be interested in any feedback that anyone has.
In 4E, I have noticed that the attribute bonuses make up 90% of a PCs decision about which class to play. Unless I am already not the sort of person who might abuse houserules, if I am playing, say, a rogue - you can be damn sure that I am going to play a race who has a bonus to dexterity. In fact, I would be quite a bit more likely to play a race that has its other bonus in either charisma or strength. A cool concept might trump that here or there, but I am probably NOT a deva rogue, for example - it is just a bad move.
I wanted to make sure that both races selected mattered. You couldn't mix a minotaur with a goblin, and expect a creature that is just as large and tough and strong as a minotaur, or one which was just as sneaky as a goblin. IMHO, a goblin/minotaur should make a worse assassin or rogue than a goblin, and a worse barbarian or warden than a minotaur. The rules in the OP allow for that combination to be good at either (just as good as a non-dual-raced character), and the PC will obviously pick whichever one favors the class he already has in mind.
So, the first idea I had is:
- To determine racial ability bonuses
- Select one of the attributes to which one of your component races normally gets a bonus
- You get a +2 bonus to this attribute
- Select one OTHER attribute to which the OTHER component race normally gets a bonus
- You get a +2 bonus to this attribute
- Select one of the attributes to which one of your component races normally gets a bonus
- For example
- An elf/dwarf (dex&wis/con&wis) will have two attributes from among dex, wis and con that it gets a +2 to
- A minotaur/goblin (str&con/dex&cha) will have one +2 bonus to either strength or constitution, and the other +2 bonus to either dexterity or charisma
I think this is a pretty clean and easy rule (although I need a better way to describe it), and achieves everythign I want it to in the examples I have in mind, but I have two problems with it that I have not resolved yet - which is why I am not set on it.
- First, it would make human-mixes pretty awesome, since they would have the option of retaining their normal non-human attribute bonuses, or gaining one of those bonuses in addition to the human "floating-bonus". However, otherwise, mixing in human offers no advantage, I might even be okay with this (since, in the homebrew world I have in mind, most of these characters would be part-human/part-something-else.)
- Secondly, while it prevents a few cases that I didn't like, I am worried that it is prone to even more abuse, since it would allow a character to keep the stat they actually care about from one race, and throw out the other stat which they do not.
- For example, an elven rogue. The +2 to dexterity is good - probably the minimum to even be viable, but whatever. The +2 to wisdom is pointless. Any rogue would be happy to trade that for a +2 to basically any other stat (except, maybe, intelligence).
- Attribute-wise, you might as well take on an additional race, if you're not worried about giving up some of the other little bonuses your race would get.
- Basically, any time you add options, you're giving the players more tools to optimize with, and I usually assume the worst.
To combat this, I decided to come up with something which was a little more complicated, but which might prevent that kind of abuse. Of course, the end result is that MOST combinations end up with ability adjustments which are worse that the usual options available to players (a single +2 bonus, from among 3-4 stats). However, one of the things I was looking for was to make dual-races a generally worse-than-usual option, so here it goes:
- To determine racial ability bonuses
- You get a +2 bonus to ONE attribute to which BOTH component races normally gain a bonus
- You also get a +2 bonus to one OTHER attribute to which EITHER component race normally gains a bonus
- Components which allow a choice to abilities (humans, changlings, etc) may count any available ability score as THE attribute to which they receive their bonus but do NOT count as receiving a bonus to all of them
- For example, humans receive a bonus that can go to any one ability score, a dwarf/human could pick eitehr constitution or charisma and say that is the ability they have in common, or pick something else, like charisma, which would result in his races having no abilities in common (and thus losing that bonus) but would open up charisma as an option for the second bonus.
- For example:
- An elf/dwarf (dex&wis/con&wis) must take the +2 wisdom bonus, but may select etiher dexterity or constitution to receive an additional +2 bonus
- A minotaur/goblin (str&con/dex&cha) loses out on the first +2 bonus, because neither of the races involved have an attribute in common to which they both normally grant a bonus. This character would still get a +2 bonus to any of those 4 (but does not have the option to select intelligence or wisdom)
- An elven rogue who is thinking about dual-racing could insure that he gets his +2 bonus to deterity, however his choice of second-race will make a big difference.
- If the second race also gets a bonus to deterity, then the character will also receive a +2 bonus to some other attribute that either race gets a bonus to.
- If the second race does not normally get a bonus to deterity, but DOES normally get a bonus to wisdom, then the second +2 must be in wisdom (as that is the attribute his two chocies share).
- If the second race does not normally get a bonus to either dexterity or wisdom, the second bonus is lost, and the character only gets the +2 bonus to dexterity that they wanted from elf.
I think this still accomplishes most of what I want, at the cost of being a bit more complicated to explain the first time - but also has the disadvantage of making a lot of dual-race combinations sub-optimal... which I still feel is probably the safer way to go if I don't plan to enumerate them.
Anyways, I'm interested to hear if anyone thinks these rules are too crazy, powerful, or restrictive.
Race combinations with a single shared stat end up slightly better off in terms of having a small free choice. That's not something I'd be concerned about balancing for though, I think that more limited access to other racial features already makes up for it.
I had likened this to the half-elf dilettante ability, and thought about addind a few dual-racial feats (ala hybrid talent) which could expand upon what my system would allow if someone wanted to invest a feat into it. An easy place to start would be a paragon-level feat (since Versitile Master is paragon level) which would turn a racial encounter power obtained through dual-racing back into a racial at-will power. I would have the same thing work for turning a racial daily power into a racial encounter power, and would probably allow it to grant a racial daily power that was lost during dual-racing as well.
As far as whether or not a paragon path or epic destiny would work best for this system - I would be inclined to consider both. There is precedent for races having their own racial paragon paths - and although a dual-racial character would qualify for two of them, it might also be cool to have a paragon-path option that expands their dual-racial options.
For the epic destiny, I agree that there isn't anythign particularly epic about the idea, and it would need some sort of escape death 1/day ability to stay viable, but primal power does include an ED that allows someone to belong to multiple races (through reincarnation) and even has features that unlock racial encounter powers from other races - which could be used to instead unlock racial encounter powers that you don't have from either of your host races. It makes sense why someone who is reincarnated a lot would be able to escape death, though, and the same is not true for someone whose parents simply crossbred. :-)
Here's my full breakdown. For my sample character, we're going to take a Dwarf + Elf.
Stat Bonuses: Half the bonuses from both parents.
Sample: +1 Con, +1 Dex, +2 Wis
Skill Bonuses: Half the bonuses from both parents.
Sample: +1 Dungeoneering, +1 Endurance, +1 Nature, +1 Perceptions
Speed: If both parents have the same speed, use that value. Otherwise, use 6.
Sample: Dwarves and Elves have different speeds, so Speed 6.
Vision: Take the best of the parents' vision.
Sample: Low-light
Size: If they are different, you may choose. Otherwise, it's whatever size they share.
Size: Medium
Defense Bonuses: NO defense bonuses, regardless of where the stats fall. Sorry. That's one of the drawbacks of the weirdness of having a bizarre half-breed.
Sample: None
Languages: Common, plus one of your choice
Sample: Common, Elven
Racial Features: Choose THREE racial features from the combined list of both races, including racial powers.
Sample: Wild Step, Dwarven Resilience, Elven Accuracy
And there we have it. My take on hybrid races.
What about a simple +1 to each instead of a +2? Yes, I know odd numbers are bad, but we're talking about a rather bizarre concept.
Here's my full breakdown. For my sample character, we're going to take a Dwarf + Elf.
Stat Bonuses: Half the bonuses from both parents.
Sample: +1 Con, +1 Dex, +2 Wis
Skill Bonuses: Half the bonuses from both parents.
Sample: +1 Dungeoneering, +1 Endurance, +1 Nature, +1 Perceptions
Speed: If both parents have the same speed, use that value. Otherwise, use 6.
Sample: Dwarves and Elves have different speeds, so Speed 6.
Vision: Take the best of the parents' vision.
Sample: Low-light
Size: If they are different, you may choose. Otherwise, it's whatever size they share.
Size: Medium
Defense Bonuses: NO defense bonuses, regardless of where the stats fall. Sorry. That's one of the drawbacks of the weirdness of having a bizarre half-breed.
Sample: None
Languages: Common, plus one of your choice
Sample: Common, Elven
Racial Features: Choose THREE racial features from the combined list of both races, including racial powers.
Sample: Wild Step, Dwarven Resilience, Elven Accuracy
And there we have it. My take on hybrid races.
I like the simplicity, and no problem with odd numbers for stats.
The racial features/powers I suggest would need player & DM agreement on a case-by-case basis. Otherwise there's quite a lot of room for build abuse. I was hoping to make something robust against that without a negotiation stage - but of course not necessary if you have reasonable players and DM :-)
I like the simplicity, and no problem with odd numbers for stats.
The racial features/powers I suggest would need player & DM agreement on a case-by-case basis. Otherwise there's quite a lot of room for build abuse. I was hoping to make something robust against that without a negotiation stage - but of course not necessary if you have reasonable players and DM :-)
I am an unfairly blessed DM, in that my players are even more reasonable than I am. They will come up with some weird idea, I say sure, because I love interesting and weird concepts. Later on, maybe it turns out to be a bad idea. Like, way overpowering. I say, "Sorry, man, I need to take back that +30 Axe of Killdeath". MOST players tend to react violently to that. Mine just say, "Yeah, I can see that. Let's work it's loss into the story."
What about a simple +1 to each instead of a +2? Yes, I know odd numbers are bad, but we're talking about a rather bizarre concept.
Here's my full breakdown. For my sample character, we're going to take a Dwarf + Elf.
Stat Bonuses: Half the bonuses from both parents.
Sample: +1 Con, +1 Dex, +2 Wis
Skill Bonuses: Half the bonuses from both parents.
Sample: +1 Dungeoneering, +1 Endurance, +1 Nature, +1 Perceptions
Speed: If both parents have the same speed, use that value. Otherwise, use 6.
Sample: Dwarves and Elves have different speeds, so Speed 6.
Vision: Take the best of the parents' vision.
Sample: Low-light
Size: If they are different, you may choose. Otherwise, it's whatever size they share.
Size: Medium
Defense Bonuses: NO defense bonuses, regardless of where the stats fall. Sorry. That's one of the drawbacks of the weirdness of having a bizarre half-breed.
Sample: None
Languages: Common, plus one of your choice
Sample: Common, Elven
Racial Features: Choose THREE racial features from the combined list of both races, including racial powers.
Sample: Wild Step, Dwarven Resilience, Elven Accuracy
And there we have it. My take on hybrid races.
don't like either takes, so my own:
Stat Bonuses: players can choose their stats, they can mix and match
Skill Bonuses: can choose which skill bonuses they get, they can mix and amtch.
Speed: go with highest race speed
Vision: Take the best of the parents' vision.
Sample: Low-light
Size: go with biggest race size
Defense Bonuses: depends on the stats they chose
Languages: Common, plus one of your choice
Sample: Common, Elven
Racial Features: they can choose four, including powers
don't like either takes, so my own:
Stat Bonuses: players can choose their stats, they can mix and match
Skill Bonuses: can choose which skill bonuses they get, they can mix and amtch.
Speed: go with highest race speed
Vision: Take the best of the parents' vision.
Sample: Low-light
Size: go with biggest race size
Defense Bonuses: depends on the stats they chose
Languages: Common, plus one of your choice
Sample: Common, Elven
Racial Features: they can choose four, including powers
Again nice and simple. However, in my view it gives too much . . . no reason not to take a dual race in this system, unless the DM gets to veto power combinations.
Even though I'm constructing homebrew, I'd like for my own goals something that could sit in an official rulebook and still work - even if players were allowed to take the rules away with them and optimise.
Again nice and simple. However, in my view it gives too much . . . no reason not to take a dual race in this system, unless the DM gets to veto power combinations.
Agreed. Why take a Halfling, when I could take Halfling/Dwarf. I could just take EVERYTHING a Halfling has, AND get Low Light Vision, be Medium size, and add Dwarven Resilience too. All while keeping EVERY SINGLE aspect of the race. No one would EVER play a non-hybrid race again.
Again nice and simple. However, in my view it gives too much . . . no reason not to take a dual race in this system, unless the DM gets to veto power combinations.
Agreed. Why take a Halfling, when I could take Halfling/Dwarf. I could just take EVERYTHING a Halfling has, AND get Low Light Vision, be Medium size, and add Dwarven Resilience too. All while keeping EVERY SINGLE aspect of the race. No one would EVER play a non-hybrid race again.
I'm confused on how this is a bad thing, it allows for more customization. Why should there be reason against it?
I offer you two different classes. One of them is the Sorcerer. The other is a SuperSorcerer. He's just like the regular Sorcerer, but he gets a +5 on all of his attack rolls. Which would you take?
You basically are just throwing away a TON of races with giving TOO many options like that.
Customization is not a bad thing. But look at it this way:
I offer you two different classes. One of them is the Sorcerer. The other is a SuperSorcerer. He's just like the regular Sorcerer, but he gets a +5 on all of his attack rolls. Which would you take?
You basically are just throwing away a TON of races with giving TOO many options like that.
Sorcerer. I would only take Super Sorcerer if they gave me a good roleplaying/flavor reason why its "Super"
hey, its just a suggestion, I'm bound to refine it someday. You don't have to go with it, if you want you can modify it yourself.
you can argue however, that by giving humans all the options they have, your throwing all the other races, cause why pick them when you could pick a human? which is why I'll never play one.
Customization is not a bad thing. But look at it this way:
I offer you two different classes. One of them is the Sorcerer. The other is a SuperSorcerer. He's just like the regular Sorcerer, but he gets a +5 on all of his attack rolls. Which would you take?
You basically are just throwing away a TON of races with giving TOO many options like that.
Sorcerer. I would only take Super Sorcerer if they gave me a good roleplaying/flavor reason why its "Super"
Good for you.
For the purposes of the thread, I have so far been looking at the game mechanic side only, ignoring any and all RP consequences.
Anyone feel free to throw in RP consequences of what an Eladrin/Minotaur - or any other odd combo - might be like . . . and how a player might justify this combination as anything other than a bizarre experiment or magical accident! My own setting assumes just that in many cases - as well as *some* interbreeding, these magical mutants can happen (or are purposefully created), so dual-races do not have to be literal mother one race then father another race.
My own setting assumes just that in many cases - as well as *some* interbreeding, these magical mutants can happen (or are purposefully created), so dual-races do not have to be literal mother one race then father another race.
That was my assumption, since I saw mentioned of a Warforged half-breed at some point. And let's face it ... no one wants to know how THAT would work.