Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 RaizielDragon Feb 02, 2010 22:25:07	I was originally inspired for this race by a picture of two gnomes next to each other who looked like twins. I later found out about the Dvati, a 3.5 race that is very similar. My intent, after reviewing the Dvati, was to tweak it slightly to fit my original vision for the race. I’d also like to give credit to Fireclave for his Guide to 4E Race Mechanic Creation which was extremely useful in compiling my ideas to provide them for review in an "edible" manner: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... Some of the differences between the original race, the Dvati, and the race I’m attempting to create, the Dvatine: Most important: The Dvati is two separate minds in two separate bodies. They were connected psychically, but were still separate consciousness’ that had to converse (either physically, or telepathically) to share ideas. The Dvatine is one consciousness in two bodies. They sense through both bodies simultaneously. A Dvatine controls both bodies as easily as another race controls their individual limbs. The mechanics of the Dvati link made the two minds practically one, but that semi-one mind, semi-two minds concept could cause some problems such as: if it affects one mind, does it automatically affect the other through the link? In 3.5, they just stated that any mind-affecting effects affected both. In 4e, we don’t have that distinction. My current method, proposed by another player in our group, is to say that if it attacks the Dvatine’s Will, it affects both bodies, if it attacks AC, Ref, or Fort, it only attacks the body targeted. Dvati are medium, Dvatine are small. Associated with this, Dvati have a speed of 6, Dvatine have a speed of 5. Dvati have darkvision, Dvatine have low-light vision. Any sentences followed by an asterisk (*) are places where I can forsee removing abilities for balancing and putting them off to feats. Dvatine Ability Score: +2 Wis, +2 Dex Size: Small Speed: 5 Vision: Low-light Languages: Common, Dvatine Skill Bonuses: +2 Diplomacy, +2 Acrobatics Major Ability One: Twins: A single Dvatine consists of one consciousness occupying two bodies, which the Dvatine controls as easily as another race controls its separate limbs. A Dvatines bodies can occupy separate spaces or the same space with no penalty. There is no limit to how far apart the two bodies can be, to include other planes.* A Dvatine threatens all squares adjacent to either body. When a Dvatine makes an attack, it can originate from either body. When a Dvatine spends a move action, both bodies can take a move action.* A Dvatine can gain combat advantage by flanking an enemy by itself, using both its' bodies.* Because the Dvatine's bodies are so synchronized, a Dvatine gains an additional +1 to attack when flanking with itself.* If both bodies are in the area of an Area, Blast, or Burst, they are both subject to the attack. Effects affect a body only if it is attacked, unless the attack targeted Will in which case both bodies suffer the effect, including any damage dealt. A Dvatine splits its HP evenly between the two bodies. Odd HP are lost until the Dvatine’s total HP becomes even again. A Dvatine is considered bloodied when it’s total HP is at half, not an individual bodies HP. If one body is reduced to 0 HP, treat it as dying as normal. If one body dies, the other body is considered dying but remains conscious. All effects of items worn or wielded by one body are duplicated on the other, but a Dvatine can still only benefit from one magic item per item slot. A Dvatine will often dress one body in mundane versions of any magical items worn by the other body, to keep their appearance the same. Echo Attack By combining its voices into an echoing cacophony, the Dvatine distracts its enemy. Encounter ♦ Minor Action Melee 1 Targets: One creature flanked by the Dvatines bodies. Effect: The Dvatine gains either a +1 bonus to attack the target or a +1 bonus to defenses against the targets attacks until the end of its next turn.
#2 Crimson_Concerto Feb 02, 2010 23:47:42	A Dvatine threatens all squares adjacent to either body. Holy crap that's overpowered. If both bodies are in the area of an Area, Blast, or Burst, they are both subject to the attack. This is highly questionable and very complicated. Why not just say that they count as a single target? I don't even know how to respond to the rest. There are just too many questions, and I can't see how this could ever be balanced considering how incredibly complex it is. This isn't even the first time somebody's tried to update the Dvati to 4E, but with 4E's much greater emphasis on balance than previous editions, no version of having two bodies that can occupy completely different spaces has been shown to be balanced, and even if it could be balanced, it would require more extensive playtesting than any other race in 4E has ever had. Unfortunately, it's just too complicated, and I doubt that you're going to get very far with this. =/
#3 RaizielDragon Feb 03, 2010 8:32:09	I can somewhat understand the doubled threatened squares being a little powerful, however the character still only has one opportunity action per turn. For counting them as a single target, I don't understand why they would be.  If there are two bodies, then it makes you twice as susceptible to attack.  In my mind, its a vulnerability that helps balance the Dvatine. I understand that it may seem complicated, however there has to be an in-depth write-up to explain all of the details of how this would interact with the current mechanics.  The Ranger Beast Companion write-up, which I see this as beng similar to, is also lengthy and complicated, but I've never seen anyone complain about that.  They read the write-up until they understand it, and then its not so complicated. Yes, there are a lot more questions.  Ones which I would gladly like to answer/solve. I agree, it is not the first time someone has tried to make a Dvati-like race for 4e, as I stated before. Thanks for the feedback.  Hope to see more.
#4 chanter_hound Feb 03, 2010 11:01:33	I'd say that the 'duel soul' portion should also include anything that is against will, hits both bodies. And that status effects possibly hurt both of them.
#5 RaizielDragon Feb 03, 2010 12:39:58	I'd say that the 'duel soul' portion should also include anything that is against will, hits both bodies. And that status effects possibly hurt both of them. There is a part about that in the same paragraph as the part about area attacks: If both bodies are in the area of an Area, Blast, or Burst, they are both subject to the attack. Effects affect a body only if it is attacked, unless the attack targeted Will in which case both bodies suffer the effect, including any damage dealt.
#6 Crimson_Concerto Feb 03, 2010 18:25:02	I can somewhat understand the doubled threatened squares being a little powerful, however the character still only has one opportunity action per turn. The fact that they still only get a single opportunity action per enemy turn isn't really relevant, because you're not limited to one opportunity attack per round. Most characters aren't going to get to make an opportunity attack every turn, but you still get to threaten twice as many spaces, so you'll still get to make twice as many opportunity attacks as other characters, depending on how you position your two separate bodies. Doubling threatened space still almost doubles the number of opportunity actions you're going to be able to take. In my mind, its a vulnerability that helps balance the Dvatine. That doesn't work, though. Balancing bonuses with penalties rarely if ever works, and this is no exception. If you can make this race balanced without giving them any particular penalties or vulnerabilities, then do that, but if you can't make this race balanced without giving them penalties or vulnerabilities, then they're too powerful and inappropriate to be a PC race to begin with, because whenever you try to balance bonuses with penalties, players WILL play characters that can take maximum advantage of the bonuses while minimizing the penalties as much as possible. I understand that it may seem complicated, however there has to be an in-depth write-up to explain all of the details of how this would interact with the current mechanics. My complaint wasn't just that it's complicated but that it's this complicated while still not being complicated enough to make this work and be balanced. Futher, the more complex you make things, the more difficult they are going to be to balance and the more playtesting your going to have to actually do to find out and the less that anybody just looking at it is really going to be able to help you.
#7 RaizielDragon Feb 03, 2010 22:03:48	I can somewhat understand the doubled threatened squares being a little powerful, however the character still only has one opportunity action per turn. The fact that they still only get a single opportunity action per enemy turn isn't really relevant, because you're not limited to one opportunity attack per round. Most characters aren't going to get to make an opportunity attack every turn, but you still get to threaten twice as many spaces, so you'll still get to make twice as many opportunity attacks as other characters, depending on how you position your two separate bodies. Doubling threatened space still almost doubles the number of opportunity actions you're going to be able to take. In my mind, its a vulnerability that helps balance the Dvatine. That doesn't work, though. Balancing bonuses with penalties rarely if ever works, and this is no exception. If you can make this race balanced without giving them any particular penalties or vulnerabilities, then do that, but if you can't make this race balanced without giving them penalties or vulnerabilities, then they're too powerful and inappropriate to be a PC race to begin with, because whenever you try to balance bonuses with penalties, players WILL play characters that can take maximum advantage of the bonuses while minimizing the penalties as much as possible. I understand that it may seem complicated, however there has to be an in-depth write-up to explain all of the details of how this would interact with the current mechanics. My complaint wasn't just that it's complicated but that it's this complicated while still not being complicated enough to make this work and be balanced. Futher, the more complex you make things, the more difficult they are going to be to balance and the more playtesting your going to have to actually do to find out and the less that anybody just looking at it is really going to be able to help you. I can see your point Crimson about the threatened squares.  I could move that ability to a feat, but then I would have to design in a way in the racial feature for the player to decide which body threatens for that turn.  This would increase the complexity of the race. I also see what you mean about trying to use penalties to balance the race.  That isn't the way that 4e was designed to work. In that case, if the Dvatine only threatened the squares around one body, the player could just choose at the beginning of his turn which body would threaten for that round. As for the complexity, I don't forsee it eventually being any more complex than beast companions, familiars, etc.  And what I have right now might not answer all the questions, but thats why I posted it here.  For people to ask questions so I can design the race write-up to answer those questions in the least complex way possible. Thanks again for the continued input.