Eliminating excess - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Eliminating excess

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
canisrufus
Jan 01, 2009 12:16:03 Hi there, I have been dming for about a year now on good old 3.5 and I am now making the switch to 4.0 with a horror campaign. With fear and roleplaying being of utmost importance, I have been trying to simplify the mechanics to the point that the pcs never see them in action. I have tried everything from a laptop based system to combat cards. Either way, the pcs
See me rifle through all my information looking for one stat or another (it may be important to note I roll all d20s in my game, including those of the pcs. Maybe I'm just not doing something right, but it feels like the roleplaying dies evry time we make a check. I was just thinking, would it be unfair/unbalanced to just use the take ten rule for the whole session and just focus on the roleplaying?
#2
solik
Jan 01, 2009 12:32:23 If you do that, I'd recommend rolling a d20 to adjust the DC values beforehand so that there's still randomness involved. Otherwise, your players simply autofail or autowin depending on what you choose to set the DC to.

I mean, they'll still autowin or autofail with your new set of results, but at least it's randomly determined instead of you deciding it.

This only works against stuff you know they'll roll against, of course.

Why do you feel roleplaying dies because someone pauses to make a check? Do your players have difficulty getting back into it?

Maybe "playing a game" at all is a bad idea for you guys, and you should just try pure cooperative storytelling?

Also, how do your players feel about all this? Do they agree with your direction explicitly, or are they just going along with it?
#3
crazysamaritan
Jan 01, 2009 13:02:24 Trained/untrained skills
Six ability scores
Hit points
Healing surges
Character level

That is the minimum information players need to know about their character's mechanics. For a horror game, I advise a new score; the SANity score. It represents how much "illusion of reality" the character retains.

As a DM, you only need page 42. (Reduce the DCs by 5, don't increase for skills)
#4
canisrufus
Jan 01, 2009 17:59:51 Cooperative storytelling may be a bit too far. Yes, this is what my players want, I am merely trying to facilitate their needs. My problem is this, the roleplaying in the game seems to be most important to them, but they love the strategy of combat with minatures. But when I asked which they had more fun with, it was the sessions where there was little to no combat. The impression I get from that is that the combat to them seems to be set apart, like a minigame more than an actual part of the session. What I'm trying to get to is to have my pc's say, "I draw my long sword, bring the hilt to my belt, and impale the kobold on it" (which some already do, just much more graphic) and me not have to sift through information to find what i need to roll for their attack, and what the monsters ac is, because often times this creates a lull in combat, where it doesnt seem exciting anymore, and the pcs lose intrest. I know this could be a fault on the part of my orginization, but i can't seem to find a system that works. I guess im really looking to find a way to seamlessly integrate combat into roleplaying, and vice versa.
#5
solik
Jan 01, 2009 18:14:15 Is the problem just in combat?

If organizing all the information in a good manner didn't help you, then the next step is to reduce the amount of information. One way to do this would be to use the same defense scores for all the monsters in every encounter. So, instead of each creature having its own AC, Reflex, and so forth, each encounter has those values set. This will reduce the tactical depth somewhat, and you may have to limit your combat constructions a little so it doesn't stretch believability too far, but that would mean you have only one place to look at for all the values PCs roll against in battle.

Another idea could be to just tough it out and rely on experience. Pick one system of organization (whichever you tried previously and liked the most), fine-tune it as you're able, and stick with it. As you use it more and more, you'll find yourself better able to quickly find what you need. Keep the page 42 table handy (standard, errata'd, or house-ruled version, as you prefer) and use it instead of the actual value if you start to have trouble finding something.

And don't be afraid to just make some gut instinct calls. If your PCs try something totally novel, and you'll have to break open a book to find the judgment, just make a call. Success or failure. Give the outcome. Later, go back and figure out what the rule would have been for that so next time you might know the correct answer. As you do this more and more, you'll get better at making instant calls.

It's not something that's going to work next session for you, but you should see things generally improving with every session if you stick to this strategy. If you're really committed, you could even try studying the rules, college cram style, but that might be going a bit far.
#6
canisrufus
Jan 01, 2009 18:22:29 My problem is I have never been good at remembering everything

I really like your random dc idea, as well as simplifying stat blocks and unifying monsters defense scores. I suppose my players are merely a reflection on me as a dm, so maybe my organization skills could be the ones to blame. Thank you for your ideas and suggestions
#7
superdeadsmurf
Jan 01, 2009 18:48:37 I think you're looking for something D&D (any edition really) doesn't support.

A quick homebrew system might be best.
keep the stats, but instead of having specific number choose three of the stats, one being your best, one being a 2ndary stat, and one poor. Best gets +5 to rolls, 2nd gets +2 and poor gets -1.
Each character gets a few skills, 2 or 3 only. the rest you won't worry about most of the time anyway. Chosen skills get +5 and then the related stat. Skill DCs would skew higher.
Choose a primary attack mode using primary stat (swords, magic, etc) and secondary attack that can be used at last resort likely using another stat(like a wizard having to pull a dagger out)
Each monster can take 1 2 or 3 hits before dying (depending on how tough you want them) Each character can take 4 hits (+2 if con is primary, +1 if secondary, -1 if it's the bad stat.) (secondary attacks take two hits to take a hitpoint maybe? Possibly only if a primary or secondary ability is associated? Criticals do 2?)
Then assign an AC... somewhere around 15/16 for most characters, just figure it out based on DEX or INT or amount of armour worn. I'd say minimum 13 maximum 18? something like that.
Give Each character a class-like ability, clerics can heal, rogues can sneak attack for an extra damage etc.

Character sheet would look something like this:
Rothgar, Human Fighter
Str +5
Con +2
Int -1
Longsword +5
Punch +5 (half-damage)
AC 17; HP 5
Intimidate +5 Athletics +10
Taunt/Defender stickiness (if used monster will attack this character next time if able)

Lorrie Dwarf Wizard
Int +5
Con +2
Cha -1
Magic Spell +5 (a small list of spells she can do might be provided to player, a player may be able to creatively augment spells on the fly)
Dagger +0
AC 15, HP 5
Arcana +10, Diplomacy +5
Non-combat spellcasting abilities (give player a small list and an idea of what they can do)

Monsters would be like
Goblin: AC 14, HP 2, Attack: Club +4

DM just ajucates everything else on the fly and doesn't really need to reference the rules most of the time. Only a d20 is used. each character can fit on a single page or note card easily, quickly referenced etc.
Numbers and stuff likely need to adjusted a bit since I'm pulling this straight out of my ass right now. Seems like a fairly robust system that allows almost complete focus on roleplaying.
#8
canisrufus
Jan 01, 2009 20:35:01 I like that homebrew system alot, but I have some other issues as well. That system would handle my combat very well, and just streamline the whole thing. But I know my pcs would miss the flashy skills provided in the phb. Maybe just allow daily utility spells and such? Second, how would I would resolve out of combat skills, such as perception? Just use them as written in the core books? And would it be unfair to the pcs to roll these before hand so that situations like, "You make your way through the foreboding out cropping and *dm looks for percep stat for all pc, makes roll, then checks percep dc for small child hiding*"

I would just like to take this oppurtunity to apologize if I seem like a weak dm, we still have alot of fun and my pcs are always excited for the next session. Im just trying to work out flaws that they have pointed out and i have noticed, so I can be that much better:D
#9
the_fae
Jan 01, 2009 20:56:39 To take the Combined defenses a step further why not just go almost solely off of page 42 of the DMG. It gives you quick rules for DCs for skills, Defenses and misc checks as well as damage. If you feel that the creature is only looking to take off an arm instead of kill the PCs change the damage. If they want to nick and run change it again. Something else to look at with this suggestion is DMG 184 which has the a way to figure out HP for monsters you create. This allows you to create pretty unique creatures whether they look like goblins or Hounds of Tindalos.

For a unified stat block I'd do it like this: The numbers you need come first, if you have bad memory right an example at the top that just has the names of the "fields", the six stats in order then HP total. Healing Surges. Character level. Then the two most common attack bonuses.

Str Con Int Dex Cha Wis Fort AC Ref Will HP Healing Surges Common At. bonus #1 Common Att. bonus #2
This should get it down to like one line per a player, which you can just stick on a sheet of paper and put on the opposite page to whatever page in a book you are in. Let the players keep track of power uses and what not. I can't think of anything else you might need to keep track of, damage maybe.

If I need to re-explain it because I didn't say it well enough the first time sorry sometimes I can over complicate things.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 canisrufus Jan 01, 2009 12:16:03	Hi there, I have been dming for about a year now on good old 3.5 and I am now making the switch to 4.0 with a horror campaign. With fear and roleplaying being of utmost importance, I have been trying to simplify the mechanics to the point that the pcs never see them in action. I have tried everything from a laptop based system to combat cards. Either way, the pcs See me rifle through all my information looking for one stat or another (it may be important to note I roll all d20s in my game, including those of the pcs. Maybe I'm just not doing something right, but it feels like the roleplaying dies evry time we make a check. I was just thinking, would it be unfair/unbalanced to just use the take ten rule for the whole session and just focus on the roleplaying?
#2 solik Jan 01, 2009 12:32:23	If you do that, I'd recommend rolling a d20 to adjust the DC values beforehand so that there's still randomness involved. Otherwise, your players simply autofail or autowin depending on what you choose to set the DC to. I mean, they'll still autowin or autofail with your new set of results, but at least it's randomly determined instead of you deciding it. This only works against stuff you know they'll roll against, of course. Why do you feel roleplaying dies because someone pauses to make a check? Do your players have difficulty getting back into it? Maybe "playing a game" at all is a bad idea for you guys, and you should just try pure cooperative storytelling? Also, how do your players feel about all this? Do they agree with your direction explicitly, or are they just going along with it?
#3 crazysamaritan Jan 01, 2009 13:02:24	Trained/untrained skills Six ability scores Hit points Healing surges Character level That is the minimum information players need to know about their character's mechanics. For a horror game, I advise a new score; the SANity score. It represents how much "illusion of reality" the character retains. As a DM, you only need page 42. (Reduce the DCs by 5, don't increase for skills)
#4 canisrufus Jan 01, 2009 17:59:51	Cooperative storytelling may be a bit too far. Yes, this is what my players want, I am merely trying to facilitate their needs. My problem is this, the roleplaying in the game seems to be most important to them, but they love the strategy of combat with minatures. But when I asked which they had more fun with, it was the sessions where there was little to no combat. The impression I get from that is that the combat to them seems to be set apart, like a minigame more than an actual part of the session. What I'm trying to get to is to have my pc's say, "I draw my long sword, bring the hilt to my belt, and impale the kobold on it" (which some already do, just much more graphic) and me not have to sift through information to find what i need to roll for their attack, and what the monsters ac is, because often times this creates a lull in combat, where it doesnt seem exciting anymore, and the pcs lose intrest. I know this could be a fault on the part of my orginization, but i can't seem to find a system that works. I guess im really looking to find a way to seamlessly integrate combat into roleplaying, and vice versa.
#5 solik Jan 01, 2009 18:14:15	Is the problem just in combat? If organizing all the information in a good manner didn't help you, then the next step is to reduce the amount of information. One way to do this would be to use the same defense scores for all the monsters in every encounter. So, instead of each creature having its own AC, Reflex, and so forth, each encounter has those values set. This will reduce the tactical depth somewhat, and you may have to limit your combat constructions a little so it doesn't stretch believability too far, but that would mean you have only one place to look at for all the values PCs roll against in battle. Another idea could be to just tough it out and rely on experience. Pick one system of organization (whichever you tried previously and liked the most), fine-tune it as you're able, and stick with it. As you use it more and more, you'll find yourself better able to quickly find what you need. Keep the page 42 table handy (standard, errata'd, or house-ruled version, as you prefer) and use it instead of the actual value if you start to have trouble finding something. And don't be afraid to just make some gut instinct calls. If your PCs try something totally novel, and you'll have to break open a book to find the judgment, just make a call. Success or failure. Give the outcome. Later, go back and figure out what the rule would have been for that so next time you might know the correct answer. As you do this more and more, you'll get better at making instant calls. It's not something that's going to work next session for you, but you should see things generally improving with every session if you stick to this strategy. If you're really committed, you could even try studying the rules, college cram style, but that might be going a bit far.
#6 canisrufus Jan 01, 2009 18:22:29	My problem is I have never been good at remembering everything I really like your random dc idea, as well as simplifying stat blocks and unifying monsters defense scores. I suppose my players are merely a reflection on me as a dm, so maybe my organization skills could be the ones to blame. Thank you for your ideas and suggestions
#7 superdeadsmurf Jan 01, 2009 18:48:37	I think you're looking for something D&D (any edition really) doesn't support. A quick homebrew system might be best. keep the stats, but instead of having specific number choose three of the stats, one being your best, one being a 2ndary stat, and one poor. Best gets +5 to rolls, 2nd gets +2 and poor gets -1. Each character gets a few skills, 2 or 3 only. the rest you won't worry about most of the time anyway. Chosen skills get +5 and then the related stat. Skill DCs would skew higher. Choose a primary attack mode using primary stat (swords, magic, etc) and secondary attack that can be used at last resort likely using another stat(like a wizard having to pull a dagger out) Each monster can take 1 2 or 3 hits before dying (depending on how tough you want them) Each character can take 4 hits (+2 if con is primary, +1 if secondary, -1 if it's the bad stat.) (secondary attacks take two hits to take a hitpoint maybe? Possibly only if a primary or secondary ability is associated? Criticals do 2?) Then assign an AC... somewhere around 15/16 for most characters, just figure it out based on DEX or INT or amount of armour worn. I'd say minimum 13 maximum 18? something like that. Give Each character a class-like ability, clerics can heal, rogues can sneak attack for an extra damage etc. Character sheet would look something like this: Rothgar, Human Fighter Str +5 Con +2 Int -1 Longsword +5 Punch +5 (half-damage) AC 17; HP 5 Intimidate +5 Athletics +10 Taunt/Defender stickiness (if used monster will attack this character next time if able) Lorrie Dwarf Wizard Int +5 Con +2 Cha -1 Magic Spell +5 (a small list of spells she can do might be provided to player, a player may be able to creatively augment spells on the fly) Dagger +0 AC 15, HP 5 Arcana +10, Diplomacy +5 Non-combat spellcasting abilities (give player a small list and an idea of what they can do) Monsters would be like Goblin: AC 14, HP 2, Attack: Club +4 DM just ajucates everything else on the fly and doesn't really need to reference the rules most of the time. Only a d20 is used. each character can fit on a single page or note card easily, quickly referenced etc. Numbers and stuff likely need to adjusted a bit since I'm pulling this straight out of my ass right now. Seems like a fairly robust system that allows almost complete focus on roleplaying.
#8 canisrufus Jan 01, 2009 20:35:01	I like that homebrew system alot, but I have some other issues as well. That system would handle my combat very well, and just streamline the whole thing. But I know my pcs would miss the flashy skills provided in the phb. Maybe just allow daily utility spells and such? Second, how would I would resolve out of combat skills, such as perception? Just use them as written in the core books? And would it be unfair to the pcs to roll these before hand so that situations like, "You make your way through the foreboding out cropping and dm looks for percep stat for all pc, makes roll, then checks percep dc for small child hiding" I would just like to take this oppurtunity to apologize if I seem like a weak dm, we still have alot of fun and my pcs are always excited for the next session. Im just trying to work out flaws that they have pointed out and i have noticed, so I can be that much better:D
#9 the_fae Jan 01, 2009 20:56:39	To take the Combined defenses a step further why not just go almost solely off of page 42 of the DMG. It gives you quick rules for DCs for skills, Defenses and misc checks as well as damage. If you feel that the creature is only looking to take off an arm instead of kill the PCs change the damage. If they want to nick and run change it again. Something else to look at with this suggestion is DMG 184 which has the a way to figure out HP for monsters you create. This allows you to create pretty unique creatures whether they look like goblins or Hounds of Tindalos. For a unified stat block I'd do it like this: The numbers you need come first, if you have bad memory right an example at the top that just has the names of the "fields", the six stats in order then HP total. Healing Surges. Character level. Then the two most common attack bonuses. `Str Con Int Dex Cha Wis Fort AC Ref Will HP Healing Surges Common At. bonus #1 Common Att. bonus #2` This should get it down to like one line per a player, which you can just stick on a sheet of paper and put on the opposite page to whatever page in a book you are in. Let the players keep track of power uses and what not. I can't think of anything else you might need to keep track of, damage maybe. If I need to re-explain it because I didn't say it well enough the first time sorry sometimes I can over complicate things.