Eliminating Penalty Stacking - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Eliminating Penalty Stacking

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
anthonyj
Feb 05, 2009 11:19:23 Would the game be hurt or improved if penalties simply didn't stack? It eliminates various cheese combos (for example, permalock with an orbizard becomes nearly impossible, as do various defense reduction tricks) without obviously making powers that create penalties entirely useless.
#2
nephew_of_istvan
Feb 05, 2009 16:06:50 even if you were to 'type' the penalties, many of those orbizard abilities would still stack by RAW and RAI. Orb of Imposition = Power penalty, Spell Focus = Feat penalty, Cunning weapon = Item penalty.

The best way to cut through (so to speak) the penalty cheese is to use the player's against themselves. By the time the player has access to enough of these options, they've invariably made a name for themselves. Yeah, lesser minions would probably not know much other than who they are, but it's safe to assume the BBEG knows who they are and how they fight. DMs need to run smart monsters, and the best way to do so is to just assume the monsters know what the PCs are up to. If the BBEG knows that party wizard has a penchant for using powers and magic equipment to make sure his effects stick, then the BBEG might hire a Cleric or Paladin minion that fits his alignment and outlook (not difficult, even the Shaman Chief of the Goblin Tribe the evil wizard subjugated to dig out from under the little town of Littletowning would be a suitable minion to apply the Cleric Class template to), and make sure they know abilities to aid in making saving throws or remove those effects. Even one midlevel Warlord-template minion would have a sizable Charisma modifier for a Shake It Off 2nd level Utility power. Who's to say that the BBEG didn't go out of his way to hire a higher level Warlord with the Heroes Defiance power as well, which will let him automatically save on throws? The only person who gets to make that call is the DM! The Kobold Oracle in service to the BBEG Red Dragon might actually be a Divine Oracle, letting the Dragon get large bonuses on his d20 rolls.

The best way to challenge a player is to throw them back at themselves. A RIGHTEOUS group has no problem wiping the floor with a VILE villian, but give them a foe that is just as RIGHTEOUS as they are, just as much in the right, just as dedicated to the cause (to the death even), and watch them squirm.

So, if your players are intelligent, and pick powers and abilities to maximize their strength, have your foes do the same! The best thing about being the DM is just that, YOU MAKE THE WORLD! You don't even have to explain HOW the BBEG managed to have +8 to their save to make that roll vs. sleep, hell, he could have been faking it and the party failed their insight vs. bluff.
#3
anthonyj
Feb 05, 2009 16:36:34
even if you were to 'type' the penalties, many of those orbizard abilities would still stack by RAW and RAI. Orb of Imposition = Power penalty, Spell Focus = Feat penalty, Cunning weapon = Item penalty.

I didn't say "penalties of the same type don't stack". I said "penalties don't stack".
#4
Seeker95
Feb 05, 2009 19:07:47 If it is becoming a problem in your game, then eliminating the stackage is probably a good idea. I don't think it will be game-breaking to remove stacking, especially since it happens less to the PCs than by them.

In my game, the stacking has happened twice, and I wasn't too perturbed about it. I rarely use solo monsters, so the ability to stack penalty against an opponent is less encounter-dominating to begin with.
#5
JayM
Feb 05, 2009 21:30:04
Would the game be hurt or improved if penalties simply didn't stack? It eliminates various cheese combos (for example, permalock with an orbizard becomes nearly impossible, as do various defense reduction tricks) without obviously making powers that create penalties entirely useless.

Hurt probably, because having penalties never stack at all would greatly limit character options. Without some stacking, Orb wizards are really weak. However, the current system has it's own problems.

Personally, I think having power penalties, item penalties and so on, would have been the correct compromise. It would keep people from massive stacking cheese, while still giving characters options.

Jay
#6
anthonyj
Feb 06, 2009 19:49:54
Hurt probably, because having penalties never stack at all would greatly limit character options. Without some stacking, Orb wizards are really weak.

The orb power is hardly worse than the wand power.
#7
aluman
Feb 07, 2009 14:39:38
The orb power is hardly worse than the wand power.

Not stacking cripples the Spell focus feat in particular. It also hinders starlocks at first level (sans-dragon magazine). It also means that defenses of later monsters will be even harder to achieve reasonable success on.
#8
bastard_dm
Feb 07, 2009 23:26:00 I doubt that stacking penalties to saving throws will have any unintended consequences- the orb wizard's ability only kicks in once per encounter, and they likely have enough other (save ends) effects to make Spell Focus a worthwhile feat. If not, then we finally have a wizard that doesn't want a Cha of 13 at paragon tier!

If you intend to go through with this, the orb of ultimate imposition (AV96), that allows an orb wizard to add its enhancement bonus to its class feature as a daily item power, would likely have to be retooled as well- possibly by replacing the power with one that allows the wizard to use his orb of imposition ability a second time in an encounter (as a free action).

Alternatively, you could just remove that item from your campaign setting.
#9
aluman
Feb 08, 2009 0:53:00
I doubt that stacking penalties to saving throws will have any unintended consequences- the orb wizard's ability only kicks in once per encounter, and they likely have enough other (save ends) effects to make Spell Focus a worthwhile feat. If not, then we finally have a wizard that doesn't want a Cha of 13 at paragon tier!

Phrenic Crown, Cunning Weapons.

Those items (both from AV) make Spell Focus a worthless feat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 anthonyj Feb 05, 2009 11:19:23	Would the game be hurt or improved if penalties simply didn't stack? It eliminates various cheese combos (for example, permalock with an orbizard becomes nearly impossible, as do various defense reduction tricks) without obviously making powers that create penalties entirely useless.
#2 nephew_of_istvan Feb 05, 2009 16:06:50	even if you were to 'type' the penalties, many of those orbizard abilities would still stack by RAW and RAI. Orb of Imposition = Power penalty, Spell Focus = Feat penalty, Cunning weapon = Item penalty. The best way to cut through (so to speak) the penalty cheese is to use the player's against themselves. By the time the player has access to enough of these options, they've invariably made a name for themselves. Yeah, lesser minions would probably not know much other than who they are, but it's safe to assume the BBEG knows who they are and how they fight. DMs need to run smart monsters, and the best way to do so is to just assume the monsters know what the PCs are up to. If the BBEG knows that party wizard has a penchant for using powers and magic equipment to make sure his effects stick, then the BBEG might hire a Cleric or Paladin minion that fits his alignment and outlook (not difficult, even the Shaman Chief of the Goblin Tribe the evil wizard subjugated to dig out from under the little town of Littletowning would be a suitable minion to apply the Cleric Class template to), and make sure they know abilities to aid in making saving throws or remove those effects. Even one midlevel Warlord-template minion would have a sizable Charisma modifier for a Shake It Off 2nd level Utility power. Who's to say that the BBEG didn't go out of his way to hire a higher level Warlord with the Heroes Defiance power as well, which will let him automatically save on throws? The only person who gets to make that call is the DM! The Kobold Oracle in service to the BBEG Red Dragon might actually be a Divine Oracle, letting the Dragon get large bonuses on his d20 rolls. The best way to challenge a player is to throw them back at themselves. A RIGHTEOUS group has no problem wiping the floor with a VILE villian, but give them a foe that is just as RIGHTEOUS as they are, just as much in the right, just as dedicated to the cause (to the death even), and watch them squirm. So, if your players are intelligent, and pick powers and abilities to maximize their strength, have your foes do the same! The best thing about being the DM is just that, YOU MAKE THE WORLD! You don't even have to explain HOW the BBEG managed to have +8 to their save to make that roll vs. sleep, hell, he could have been faking it and the party failed their insight vs. bluff.
#3 anthonyj Feb 05, 2009 16:36:34	even if you were to 'type' the penalties, many of those orbizard abilities would still stack by RAW and RAI. Orb of Imposition = Power penalty, Spell Focus = Feat penalty, Cunning weapon = Item penalty. I didn't say "penalties of the same type don't stack". I said "penalties don't stack".
#4 Seeker95 Feb 05, 2009 19:07:47	If it is becoming a problem in your game, then eliminating the stackage is probably a good idea. I don't think it will be game-breaking to remove stacking, especially since it happens less to the PCs than by them. In my game, the stacking has happened twice, and I wasn't too perturbed about it. I rarely use solo monsters, so the ability to stack penalty against an opponent is less encounter-dominating to begin with.
#5 JayM Feb 05, 2009 21:30:04	Would the game be hurt or improved if penalties simply didn't stack? It eliminates various cheese combos (for example, permalock with an orbizard becomes nearly impossible, as do various defense reduction tricks) without obviously making powers that create penalties entirely useless. Hurt probably, because having penalties never stack at all would greatly limit character options. Without some stacking, Orb wizards are really weak. However, the current system has it's own problems. Personally, I think having power penalties, item penalties and so on, would have been the correct compromise. It would keep people from massive stacking cheese, while still giving characters options. Jay
#6 anthonyj Feb 06, 2009 19:49:54	Hurt probably, because having penalties never stack at all would greatly limit character options. Without some stacking, Orb wizards are really weak. The orb power is hardly worse than the wand power.
#7 aluman Feb 07, 2009 14:39:38	The orb power is hardly worse than the wand power. Not stacking cripples the Spell focus feat in particular. It also hinders starlocks at first level (sans-dragon magazine). It also means that defenses of later monsters will be even harder to achieve reasonable success on.
#8 bastard_dm Feb 07, 2009 23:26:00	I doubt that stacking penalties to saving throws will have any unintended consequences- the orb wizard's ability only kicks in once per encounter, and they likely have enough other (save ends) effects to make Spell Focus a worthwhile feat. If not, then we finally have a wizard that doesn't want a Cha of 13 at paragon tier! If you intend to go through with this, the orb of ultimate imposition (AV96), that allows an orb wizard to add its enhancement bonus to its class feature as a daily item power, would likely have to be retooled as well- possibly by replacing the power with one that allows the wizard to use his orb of imposition ability a second time in an encounter (as a free action). Alternatively, you could just remove that item from your campaign setting.
#9 aluman Feb 08, 2009 0:53:00	I doubt that stacking penalties to saving throws will have any unintended consequences- the orb wizard's ability only kicks in once per encounter, and they likely have enough other (save ends) effects to make Spell Focus a worthwhile feat. If not, then we finally have a wizard that doesn't want a Cha of 13 at paragon tier! Phrenic Crown, Cunning Weapons. Those items (both from AV) make Spell Focus a worthless feat.