Encounter Powers - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Encounter Powers

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zeythar
Dec 18, 2011 15:41:34
After DM'ing a 4e a few times I am curious about making a few house rules changes and wonder if this has been mentioned or others have input.

I think a lot of time is built up with a character planning what they are going to do then fail. Most notably when they use the encounter powers.

My idea is to make an encounter power spent only if they:
A) Succeed, or
b) they roll a 1 to hit.

I have considered upping b) to a spread like a miss from 1-5 (roll) on a hit or something. I understand this will make the players a bit stronger but hey they are heroes.

Ideas? Question, Otherwise.
#2
pluisjen
Dec 18, 2011 16:05:19 It's important to think about how this rule interacts with multi-target attacks. What happens when you can target two people? Does it get spent when you hit both? Or either?

Also important to note: some powers are more accurate. Currently, they're balanced around that idea. These powers will become a lot weaker when you effectively make all of them Reliable.

While the rule probably won't break anything, it's good to be aware of these things and try to think about how this rule will influence those effects and powers. Ultimately, I think you can safely use it, although players might be drawn a bit more to less accurate powers and perhaps single/multi target depending on how your rule interacts with those.
#3
mhbjarkistef
Dec 19, 2011 5:37:12 Houserules are tricky, since admitting to your group that a housrule you came up with was a bad idea can be difficult sometimes, especially if it benefitted the group.

Read about houserules in the Dungeonmaster's guide before adding any.

There are a LOT of powers that sacrifice accuracy for damage. You just gave the finger to all those powers, I don't recommend this, encounter powers will get less sacred as you level (generally around level 7). Just make sure you give them at least 2 items with encounter powers during levels 2-5. That should make up for the thirst of encounter powers that players often suffer from the first few levels.

At level 8 and beyond tho, you can drown in your own encounter powers. From that point onward make it your goal to replace those items (at least one of them) with daily item power-giving items.

Themes, feats, class and paragon paths all grant encounter powers. Having many encounter powers to choose from often means that players take more time choosing what to do. This means turns take more time and less time is available to roleplay. Combat encounters are long enough already xD
#4
mhbjarkistef
Dec 19, 2011 5:39:46 ... then again

I do always make sure most in my group have an expertise feat, and I do sometimes lower my monster's AC since I know how some of my players get frustrated when they miss. I don't know if they are frustrated 'cause they wasted a turn, or they wasted an encounter power. Maybe I'll try this housrule and see which one it is.

You're balance comes from that: Even if they miss, they still "wasted" their turn, so picking inaccurate encounter powers is still an idea.

When looking at it from that perspective, I see nothing wrong with this houserule.
#5
ciaran
Dec 19, 2011 7:30:06 I know how it feels to run into a string of misses. It sucks. Sometimes the dice do not favor the player. But that is part of the game.

Daily powers already have miss and effect lines, or are reliable, so they are never "wasted". I don't see this idea as needed.
#6
alitain
Dec 19, 2011 13:41:06
I know how it feels to run into a string of misses. It sucks. Sometimes the dice do not favor the player. But that is part of the game. Daily powers already have miss and effect lines, or are reliable, so they are never "wasted". I don't see this idea as needed.

I'm seconding this. The thing is Zeythar is yeah, they're heroes but that isn't a reason or excuse to make it so they almost can't fail. Missing on attacks suck, it happens to everyone but that's just how it goes. If I played in a game where I basically could fail to him even with just my encounters, it wouldn't be that fun either. I mean hell just last night during our game I hit the enemy with one daily(my fav daily as a rogue; doesn't expend as long as I'm hidden when I use it), and then action pointed and tried to hit the same enemy with my other daily and missed. It sucked, blew a daily. But oh well it happens. Sometimes you have bad streaks where you can't roll for **** and then other times you get awesome rolls. I mean most of the night I was rolling 14 or higher and almost never missed.

It really just doesn't seem necessary to make it so it's almost impossible to miss with encounters just because the players do miss. Which is suppose to happen.

That being said, to at least try and be positive in my criticism about your idea, I'll say this. I think the options you have are still too strong to do regardless of my personal belief on this as I mentioned above. What I do think you could do is maybe turn this into a feat. And then the players can take the feat. Maybe have the feat allow them to choose one encounter power and at the following line; "Special: This power is only expended if you successfully hit one or more targets of the attack." Then you can also add to the feat that at the end of an extended rest they can swap out the chosen encounter power for a different encounter power they know. Still think that's strong but maybe a little more reasonable than just a general blanket houserule.
#7
ciaran
Dec 19, 2011 14:15:05 I think there is a feat you can take give a power the reliable keyword. Look it over. Maybe lighten up the prerequisites.
#8
zeythar
Dec 19, 2011 17:49:21
Thanks for all the creative and constructive input you all are awesome. I will look into some of the feats and also keep in mind how things affect the feel of the game. I try to play test things before I introduce it to a group, but how it overall affects things later at higher levels is a very good point so how it plays at 1 -3rd level may not be the same as the next tier.

Just to be clear though I was allowing the miss just not the expenditure of the power unless a 1 was rolled or a spread was met or the power hit.

Thanks all!

Z.
#9
Litmus
Dec 30, 2011 13:57:55 Another angle to approach this from is to give everyone limited rerolls (one per encounter or milestone, for example).

This gives players the opportunity to try again with a missed encounter or daily and has fewer balance implications.
#10
alitain
Jan 01, 2012 18:29:33 Or, kinda in line of what Litmus mentioned about a limited amount of rerolls, you could do what the D&D Modern did. In that game characters got a few action points(obviously the name would have to be changed to avoid confusion) every level. On any roll you could use one AP and it allowed you to roll a d6 and add that amount to your roll. So if you rolled say a 12, before you called out your roll to the DM if you feel that 12 made your atk roll too low then you could use a AP to roll a d6 and say you roll a 3, so that you'd have a 15 for your roll plus then your atk bonuses and whatnot.

The thing is though, the APs didn't regenerate. They were a kinda finite resource, you only have a few every level so if you used them all then you had to wait till the next level. Or you could stockpile them over several levels. This might also be a decent idea, as it would allow the players a chance to add a little more to a roll they feel could be too low.

Also, if the players are epic the Dice of Auspicious fortune is one of my favorite epic tier items. Even with the stupid errata of only using it once per encounter and only on atk rolls I think it was, the Dice are still a great item and saved my ass SO many times. With rolling three dice I almost always got one crit so use per combat, loved it!
#11
mhbjarkistef
Jan 06, 2012 2:34:45 Keeping APs as their, with the added effect of they can be used like so:

In addition, when you miss with an encounter or daily power you can choose to spend an actionpoint to reroll the attack roll. Doing so does not trigger any abilities, powers or features that are normally triggered when using an action point.

This means that this will be the primary way to use Action Points, up until Paragon Tier. But this is okay since I always find myself drowning in encounter powers by level 8 anyways.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zeythar Dec 18, 2011 15:41:34	After DM'ing a 4e a few times I am curious about making a few house rules changes and wonder if this has been mentioned or others have input. I think a lot of time is built up with a character planning what they are going to do then fail. Most notably when they use the encounter powers. My idea is to make an encounter power spent only if they: A) Succeed, or b) they roll a 1 to hit. I have considered upping b) to a spread like a miss from 1-5 (roll) on a hit or something. I understand this will make the players a bit stronger but hey they are heroes. Ideas? Question, Otherwise.
#2 pluisjen Dec 18, 2011 16:05:19	It's important to think about how this rule interacts with multi-target attacks. What happens when you can target two people? Does it get spent when you hit both? Or either? Also important to note: some powers are more accurate. Currently, they're balanced around that idea. These powers will become a lot weaker when you effectively make all of them Reliable. While the rule probably won't break anything, it's good to be aware of these things and try to think about how this rule will influence those effects and powers. Ultimately, I think you can safely use it, although players might be drawn a bit more to less accurate powers and perhaps single/multi target depending on how your rule interacts with those.
#3 mhbjarkistef Dec 19, 2011 5:37:12	Houserules are tricky, since admitting to your group that a housrule you came up with was a bad idea can be difficult sometimes, especially if it benefitted the group. Read about houserules in the Dungeonmaster's guide before adding any. There are a LOT of powers that sacrifice accuracy for damage. You just gave the finger to all those powers, I don't recommend this, encounter powers will get less sacred as you level (generally around level 7). Just make sure you give them at least 2 items with encounter powers during levels 2-5. That should make up for the thirst of encounter powers that players often suffer from the first few levels. At level 8 and beyond tho, you can drown in your own encounter powers. From that point onward make it your goal to replace those items (at least one of them) with daily item power-giving items. Themes, feats, class and paragon paths all grant encounter powers. Having many encounter powers to choose from often means that players take more time choosing what to do. This means turns take more time and less time is available to roleplay. Combat encounters are long enough already xD
#4 mhbjarkistef Dec 19, 2011 5:39:46	... then again I do always make sure most in my group have an expertise feat, and I do sometimes lower my monster's AC since I know how some of my players get frustrated when they miss. I don't know if they are frustrated 'cause they wasted a turn, or they wasted an encounter power. Maybe I'll try this housrule and see which one it is. You're balance comes from that: Even if they miss, they still "wasted" their turn, so picking inaccurate encounter powers is still an idea. When looking at it from that perspective, I see nothing wrong with this houserule.
#5 ciaran Dec 19, 2011 7:30:06	I know how it feels to run into a string of misses. It sucks. Sometimes the dice do not favor the player. But that is part of the game. Daily powers already have miss and effect lines, or are reliable, so they are never "wasted". I don't see this idea as needed.
#6 alitain Dec 19, 2011 13:41:06	I know how it feels to run into a string of misses. It sucks. Sometimes the dice do not favor the player. But that is part of the game. Daily powers already have miss and effect lines, or are reliable, so they are never "wasted". I don't see this idea as needed. I'm seconding this. The thing is Zeythar is yeah, they're heroes but that isn't a reason or excuse to make it so they almost can't fail. Missing on attacks suck, it happens to everyone but that's just how it goes. If I played in a game where I basically could fail to him even with just my encounters, it wouldn't be that fun either. I mean hell just last night during our game I hit the enemy with one daily(my fav daily as a rogue; doesn't expend as long as I'm hidden when I use it), and then action pointed and tried to hit the same enemy with my other daily and missed. It sucked, blew a daily. But oh well it happens. Sometimes you have bad streaks where you can't roll for **** and then other times you get awesome rolls. I mean most of the night I was rolling 14 or higher and almost never missed. It really just doesn't seem necessary to make it so it's almost impossible to miss with encounters just because the players do miss. Which is suppose to happen. That being said, to at least try and be positive in my criticism about your idea, I'll say this. I think the options you have are still too strong to do regardless of my personal belief on this as I mentioned above. What I do think you could do is maybe turn this into a feat. And then the players can take the feat. Maybe have the feat allow them to choose one encounter power and at the following line; "Special: This power is only expended if you successfully hit one or more targets of the attack." Then you can also add to the feat that at the end of an extended rest they can swap out the chosen encounter power for a different encounter power they know. Still think that's strong but maybe a little more reasonable than just a general blanket houserule.
#7 ciaran Dec 19, 2011 14:15:05	I think there is a feat you can take give a power the reliable keyword. Look it over. Maybe lighten up the prerequisites.
#8 zeythar Dec 19, 2011 17:49:21	Thanks for all the creative and constructive input you all are awesome. I will look into some of the feats and also keep in mind how things affect the feel of the game. I try to play test things before I introduce it to a group, but how it overall affects things later at higher levels is a very good point so how it plays at 1 -3rd level may not be the same as the next tier. Just to be clear though I was allowing the miss just not the expenditure of the power unless a 1 was rolled or a spread was met or the power hit. Thanks all! Z.
#9 Litmus Dec 30, 2011 13:57:55	Another angle to approach this from is to give everyone limited rerolls (one per encounter or milestone, for example). This gives players the opportunity to try again with a missed encounter or daily and has fewer balance implications.
#10 alitain Jan 01, 2012 18:29:33	Or, kinda in line of what Litmus mentioned about a limited amount of rerolls, you could do what the D&D Modern did. In that game characters got a few action points(obviously the name would have to be changed to avoid confusion) every level. On any roll you could use one AP and it allowed you to roll a d6 and add that amount to your roll. So if you rolled say a 12, before you called out your roll to the DM if you feel that 12 made your atk roll too low then you could use a AP to roll a d6 and say you roll a 3, so that you'd have a 15 for your roll plus then your atk bonuses and whatnot. The thing is though, the APs didn't regenerate. They were a kinda finite resource, you only have a few every level so if you used them all then you had to wait till the next level. Or you could stockpile them over several levels. This might also be a decent idea, as it would allow the players a chance to add a little more to a roll they feel could be too low. Also, if the players are epic the Dice of Auspicious fortune is one of my favorite epic tier items. Even with the stupid errata of only using it once per encounter and only on atk rolls I think it was, the Dice are still a great item and saved my ass SO many times. With rolling three dice I almost always got one crit so use per combat, loved it!
#11 mhbjarkistef Jan 06, 2012 2:34:45	Keeping APs as their, with the added effect of they can be used like so: In addition, when you miss with an encounter or daily power you can choose to spend an actionpoint to reroll the attack roll. Doing so does not trigger any abilities, powers or features that are normally triggered when using an action point. This means that this will be the primary way to use Action Points, up until Paragon Tier. But this is okay since I always find myself drowning in encounter powers by level 8 anyways.