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Engineer
I am not hindered by flesh and bone; I am a creator of my own destiny
Class Traits
Role: Controller. You implement your cunning and knowledge of natural substances and mechanics to control the battlefield
Source: Martial. You mix martial training, alchemical mastery, and mechanical knowledge to survive
Key Abilities: Intelligence, Strength, Constitution
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth Armor, Leather Armor
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple Melee, Simple Ranged
Implement: Dagger, Rod, Clockwork Weapon
Bonus to Defense: +2 Will
Hit Points at 1st Level: 10 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 4
Healing Surges: 6 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: Thievery plus 3 others. From the class skills list below, choose 3 more trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Athletics(Str), Dungeoneering (Wis), Endurance (Con), History (Int), Insight (Wis), Nature (Wis)
Build Options: Combat Engineer, Construct Engineer
Class Features: Master Engineer, Mastered Alchemy Training, Engineer's Chain
ENGINEER OVERVIEW
Characteristics: You are a controller; your job is to manipulate your enemies and the battle field. Most of your attacks inflict various debuffs and disabling effects while doing moderate damage
Religion: An engineer can choose to worship any deity, although they tend to favor Moradin or Erathis
Races: Any race can become an engineer; most common engineers are human, dwarves, or warforged though.
Creating an Engineer
The engineer has two basic build: combat engineer and clockwork engineer. Engineers rely on intelligence for many of their powers, as well as constitution for additional health; combat engineers also benefit greatly from a high strength score.
Combat Engineer
You are a calculating warrior; you mix your martial training, a weapon made of mechanical parts, and your intellect to control the battlefield with various traps and devices. Strength should be your highest stat as many of your melee powers are better with a high strength score. Intelligence should be your secondary stat as your traps benefit from a high intelligence. Constitution should be your third highest score as increased health is always useful. You should choose abilities that take advantage of your position in melee combat.
Suggested Feat: Improved Clockwork Weapon
Suggested Skills: Thievery, Endurance, Nature, Insight
Suggested At-Will Power: Engineer's Chain, Engineer's Strike
Suggested Encounter Power: Knock 'Em Silly
Suggested Daily Power: Calculated Twin Strike
Construct Engineer
You have developed the method to creating mechanical beings that follow your instructions. The devices you craft are mechanical monsters that heed your beck and call. Intelligence should be your highest stat as many of your abilities use it. Constitution should be your secondary stat as an increased health also increases the health of your minions. Strength should be your third highest stat to increase what melee powers you choose to get. You should get powers that take advantage of your high intelligence score.
Suggested Feat: Improved Clockwork Minion
Suggested Skills: Thievery, Nature, Arcana, Insight
Suggested At-Will Power: Engineer's Chain, Clockwork Smash
Suggested Encounter Power: Construct Stomp
Suggested Daily Power: Clockwork ExFi-A
Engineer Class Features
Every Engineer shares these class features.
Implement
You are a master tinkerer; you can use rods, daggers, and your clockwork weapon as an implement. See Clockwork Weapon feature power for details
Master Engineer
You are a master of science and mechanical construction. you are a genius when it comes to applying knowledge to a task. You are a tinkerer and a warrior mixing alchemy, science, and war. Any construct you make with the clockwork keyword gain a +1 to all defenses per tier and are treated as two levels higher for determining what alchemy formulas are available to you. At character creation, you must choose construct engineer, combat engineer, or trap engineer.
Construct Engineer
You are trained and studied in the methodology of creating mechanical beasts and minions to do your bidding. You use your minions to control the battlefield. All minions with 10 squares of you gain a bonus to damage equal to your intelligence modifier; You also gain the Clockwork Creation feature.
Combat Engineer
You have perfected the mixture of martial combat and intellectual craftsmanship. You mix alchemy and weapon finesse to wade into combat. You gain a bonus when attacking with an alchemical item equal to your strength modifier. You gain the Clockwork Weapon feature power.
Trap Engineer
By implementing your alchemical knowledge with a devious mind, you have developed the method of creating potent traps to manipulate the terrain around you to hinder your foes and guide them to you bidding. Allies do not trigger any power with the Trap keyword associated with it. You also gain the Improved Alchemy feature.
Mastered Alchemy Training
You gain the Alchemy feat at first level. You get to choose three of the following formulas to start with: Blastpatch, Alchemist's fire, Alchemist's frost, Tanglefoot bag, antivenom, tether cord.
Engineer's Chain
All engineers start with their customized chain that is alchemically treated and tempered steel attached to a retractable mechanism. Some engineer powers increase the power of the engineer's chain or change it for increased effects. You gain the Engineer's Chain at-will power.
Engineer Powers
Class Features
Clockwork Minion Engineer Feature
By mixing alchemy and iron, you create a minion to serve you
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Encounter ✦ Martial, Conjuration
Standard Action Personal
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Effect: You make a construct that serves you; It is a Medium sized construct that has hit points equal to your bloodied value; Its defenses are equal to 12 + 1/2 your level, and has a speed of 5. You can move your minion with a move action; It can make a basic melee attack as a standard action to a creature adjacent to it; 1d20+your Int Modifier vs. AC 1d8 +4 damage; It can also can make opportunity attacks; +4 vs. AC 1d8 +4 damage. If it is killed, you can remake it with a standard action at a cost of a healing surge.
Clockwork Weapon Engineer Feature
You create a weapon out of iron, steel, and mechanical pieces
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Encounter ✦ Martial, Conjuration
Standard Action Personal
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Effect: You create a melee weapon of your choice that you have proficiency with; This acts and works like a standard weapon of that type. You can use this as an implement if your an Engineer.
Improvised Alchemy Engineer Feature
With a shake here and a stir there you create a usable, although impotent, alchemical concoction.
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Encounter ✦ Martial, Conjuration
Standard Action Personal
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Effect: You can spend a standard action to create an improvised alchemical item; It must be a formula you know and the maximum level of alchemical item you can create is equal to 1/2 your level rounded up. It has no material cost, but because of its unstable creation it only lasts until the end of the encounter or for five minutes; Any attack made with an improvised alchemical item takes a -1 to damage rolls.
Powers
Engineer's Chain Engineer Attack 1
You lash out with your retractable chain, either tripping or striking your foe.
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At-Will ✦ Martial, Force, Implement
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: Creature in range
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex or Strength vs. AC
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Hit: If chose Int vs. Reflex; Int modifier force damage and target is knocked prone; If chose Str vs. AC; 1d8 + Int modifier force damage.
Effect: 11th-Prone (save ends) or 2d8+Int modifier damage; 21st-1d8+Int modifier damage & prone(save ends) or 3d8+Int Modifier damage.
Clockwork Smash Engineer Attack 1
With a press of a button you command your minions to strike.
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At-Will ✦ Martial, Force, Implement
Standard Action Close burst 1
Target: All minions you control in burst
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Effect: Each minion makes a secondary attack against an adjacent foe.
Secondary Target: Creature adjacent to minion
Secondary Attack: Intelligence vs. AC
Hit: 1d4 + Int modifier force
Special: Increase to 2d4 + Int at 11th, and 3d4+Int at 21st.
Engineer's Strike Engineer Attack 1
You place a well-timed and calculated blow into your foe.
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At-Will ✦ Martial, Implement, Weapon
Standard Action Melee
Target: Enemy in range
Attack: Strength vs. AC
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Hit: 1[W] + Str modifier damage
Combat Engineer: Shift 1 after attack
Special: 11th- Increase to 2[W] + Str modifier
Make-shift Trap Engineer Attack 1
You rig a trap with an alchemical concoction, waiting for an unlucky foe.
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At-Will ✦ Martial, Implement, Trap
Standard Action Close burst 1
Requirements: Alchemical item
Target: Unoccupied square in burst
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Effect: You set a trap in the square; When a creature enters the square, trigger secondary attack
Secondary Target: Creature enters the trapped square
Secondary Attack: vs. Dependant on Alchemical Item
Hit: Dependant on Alchemical item
Chain Hook Engineer Attack 1
You attach a hook onto the end of your Engineer's Chain before you strike.
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Encounter ✦ Martial, Implement, Weapon
Immediate Reaction Melee
Requirements: You hit with Engineer's Chain
Target: Target of Engineer's Chain
Attack: Strength vs. AC and Intelligence vs. Reflex; Same as Engineer's Chain
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Hit: 1d8 + Int modifier force damage and pulled 2 squares
Clockwork Stomp Engineer Attack 1
You command a minion to smash the ground, sending a shockwave out around it.
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Encounter ✦ Martial, Force, Implement
Standard Action Close burst 5
Target: Clockwork minion in burst
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Effect: The minion makes a secondary attack in a close burst one centered on it.
Secondary Target: Creatures in burst
Secondary Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: Int modifier force damage and knocked prone until the start of target's next turn.
Clockwork Engineer: If centered on Clockwork Minion increase to 1d6 + Int modifier force and burst 2
Frost Spike Engineer Attack 1
You fill a metal spike with alchemical frost and throw it at an group of foes
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Encounter ✦ Martial, Cold, Implement
Standard Action Area blast 3 within 10 squares
Target: Creatures in blast
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
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Hit: 1d12 + Int modifier cold and slowed until end of next turn
Trapsmith Engineer: Instead slowed (save ends)
Knock 'Em Silly Engineer Attack 1
You slam your weapon into the cranium of your foe.
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Encounter ✦ Martial, Implement, Weapon
Standard Action Melee
Target: Enemy in Reach
Attack: Strength vs. AC
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Hit: 2[W] damage and dazed until the end of Engineer's next turn.
Combat Engineer: target is also knocked prone.
Calculated Twin Strike Engineer Attack 1
With a calculating mind, you strike with timed accuracy
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Daily ✦ Martial, Fire, Implement, Trap
Standard Action Melee
Target: Enemy in reach
Attack: Strength vs. AC
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Hit: 2[W] + Str modifier damage + dazed (save ends)
Effect: Make a secondary attack
Secondary Target: Primary target or another in range
Effect: Make a melee basic attack against the target
Combat Engineer: Instead of a melee basic attack, you can make an attack with Engineer's Chain against a target in range
Flame Ward Engineer Attack 1
You trap an area with a miniature fire-spitting device, igniting anything that gets too close.
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Daily ✦ Martial, Fire, Implement, Trap
Standard Action Close burst 1
Target: Unoccupied square in burst
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Effect: You trap a square with a flame ward; Any creature that moves next to it or starts its turn adjacent to it triggers the secondary attack
Secondary Target: Blast 3 centered on triggering creature
Secondary Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d10+Int modifier fire damage and ongoing 10 fire damage (save ends)
Miss: Half damage and ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends)
Clockwork ExFi-A Engineer Attack 1
You create a small construct, which darts into your enemies and explodes.
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Daily ✦ Martial, Fire, Conjuration, Implement
Standard Action Close burst 1
Target: Unoccupied square in burst
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Effect: You create a small-sized construct with hit points equal to your healing surge value; It has a speed of 7 and its defenses equal to 10+1/2 your level. As a move action, you can command it to move up to its speed. If its reduced to 0 hit points or as a minor action it triggers its secondary attack.
Secondary Target: Creatures in burst 2
Secondary Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 2d8+Int modifier fire damage and ongoing 3 fire damage (save ends).
Miss: Half damage and no ongoing fire damage
Fine-tune Weapon Engineer Utility 2
Calculating your error, you modify your weapon to strike true.
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Daily ✦ Martial
Immediate Reaction Melee or Ranged 10
Requirements: Missed with Clockwork Weapon attack or Engineer's Chain attack
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Effect: Repeat last attack against target; get a +2 bonus to attack for this attack only
Repair Construct Engineer Utility 2
You repair your construct, fixing any damages done to it.
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Daily ✦ Martial, Heal, Implement
Standard Action Close burst 1
Target: Construct in burst
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Effect: Spend a healing surge; heal construct for 2d10 + Int modifier health
Grappling Chain Engineer Utility 2
You attach a grappling hook to the end of your Engineer's Chain.
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At-Will ✦ Martial
Free Action
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Effect: You get a +10 on your next check for climbing a surface.
Pull Rope Engineer Attack 3
You set a spring-cord pulled between two places, waiting for a foe to be caught in your plans.
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Encounter ✦ Martial, Implement, Trap
Standard Action Close burst 2
Target: Two unoccupied squares in burst
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Effect: You trap both squares; if a creature enters either square, it triggers the secondary attack.
Secondary Target: Triggering creature
Secondary Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: Knocked prone and pulled to the opposite trapped square
Smog Emitter Engineer Attack 3
You create a tiny mechanical machine that darts out from you, leaving a hazy smog cloud behind it.
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Encounter ✦ Martial, Acid, Implement
Standard Action Close wall 7
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Effect: You create a wall of smoke and fumes; It is 7 squares long and 2 squares high. It grants concealment to obstructed targets; Those who pass through the wall are weakened and blinded (save ends both).
Clockwork Engineer: Targets also take 1d12 + Int modifier acid damage when passing through the wall.
Net Throw Engineer Attack 3
You rig a net at the end of your chain, ensnaring your foes.
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Encounter ✦ Martial, Implement
Free Action Area blast 3 within 5 squares
Target: Creatures in blast
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Hit: Immobilized (Save ends)
Miss: Knocked prone and pushed 2
Toxic Swing Engineer Attack 3
You coat your blade with poisonous chemicals, followed by slamming it into your foe.
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Encounter ✦ Martial, Poison, Implement, Weapon
Standard Action Melee
Target: Creature in range
Attack: Strength vs. AC
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Hit: 2[W] + Str modifier and ongoing 5 poison damage (save ends)
Miss: Half damage and no ongoing damage
Combat Engineer: Target is also weakened (save ends).
Thats about as far as i got on it atm, ran out of power ideas lol. I know what i want to do with the class, its just difficult thinking of 3-4 powers a level. I do have feats though for it as well:
Improved Clockwork Weapon
Requirement: Clockwork Weapon feature power
Benefit: Clockwork Weapon becomes an at-will power and can be any melee or ranged weapon of your choosing, although you gain no proficiency bonus unless you are already proficient with the weapon you create. If you create a ranged weapon, you must have proper ammunition for it.
Master Clockwork Weapon
Requirement: Clockwork Weapon feature power, Improved Clockwork Weapon
Benefit: A basic attack with the Clockwork Weapon pushes the target a number of squares equal to your strength modifier. It also can gain the flaming, icy, or shocking enchantment for free with a level no higher then 2/3 of your level (rounded up).
Improved Clockwork Minion
Requirement: Clockwork Minion feature power
Benefit: Your Clockwork Minion's maximum hit points increases to 3/4 of your maximum hit points. It can also mark one target per round as a free action that attacks you if your Minion is within 5 squares of you as an immediate reaction.
Master Clockwork Minion
Requirement: Clockwork Minion feature power, Improved Clockwork Minion
Benefit: Your Minion's maximum hitpoints is equal to yours, it's speed increases to 7, and damage die improves to d12.
Improved Improvised Alchemy
Requirement: Improvised Alchemy feature power
Benefit:You can create any alchemical formula item that you don't know at 1/2 your level (rounded up), and you can create formulas you do know at 3/4 your level (rounded up). You also take no penalty to damage when attacking with improvised alchemy items you create with this feature.
Master Improvised Alchemy
Requirement: Improvised Alchemy feature power, Improved Improvised Alchemy
Benefit: You can now create formulas you dont know at 3/4 your level (rounded up) and formulas you do know at equal to your level and as a minor action.
MULTICLASS FEATS
Mechanical Training
Benefit: You gain training in an engineer skill of your choosing; you gain the Engineer's Chain at-will power as an encounter power.
Mechanical Aptitude
Requirements: Multiclass Engineer feat, Paragon Multiclassing as Engineer
Benefit: You gain the Master Engineering feature. Choose combat, construct, or trap engineering; you gain the benefit and feature power of your choice.
Alchemy isn't martial.
The class simply doesn't come remotely close to fitting in with the other martial classes.
The feats that apply to all martial classes do not fit the engineer.
You may have a good class, I haven't read the whole thing, but I've read plenty enough to say, Engineer: The Martial Controller is simply untrue.
Out of all the power soruces released thus far and future ones that i know of, Martial is the only one that fits; The engineer has their abilities through training, study, and implementation. Yes, it does add some parts that arn't pure martial such as alchemy; Yet alchemy can be done with absolutly no magical aptitude (so can rituals but that isn't hte point at the moment), and is natural and not magical directly. Only way to fix this is to make up my own power source to replace it.
Actually, reading through the powers, I think the problem is that 'engineer' is just too much of a wussy name ...
Basically he seems to be an exotic weapons master (the retractable chain), with alchemy (no one would complain if rogues started usnig poisons ...) and with a construct (but hey, the ranger has a beast, and isn't primal). With the right art-work, it would be quite easy to convince people he's a martial character. (some mussled guy, with a chainmechanism rapped aroud one arm and a clockwork beast lurking the shadows behind him ...)
Some notes.
- I'dd limit to one minion at a time (just like the beastmaster ranger)
- Clockwork Stomp misses a range (I recon burst 1?) if you're not a clockwork engineer
- Calculated twin strike: what is the secondairy attack?
- Finetune weapon seems very powerfull? (if used with encounter powers?)
An other point though: as said in my 'Gizmo' blog/ thread on homebrew: 'techno' stuff isn't common in DnD worlds. Have you figured out how that you will bring this class in the world?
This is a pretty good job 
I'm creating my own world based on D&D 4th edition. It's going to be a semi-techonological world, something like World of Warcraft, and, with your permission of course, i'd like to incorporate this class in the possible classes for my world. I'm also working on an alchemist class, more acute to the "Fullmetal Alchemist" trend. I'll post it up when i have something worth showing.
Fine-tune weapon is op, now that i went back over it. I'm probabyl gonna scrap it and move it to a higher-leveled utility; it fits in well with the theme i believe.
When i started this class, i was thinking kinda like an alternate artificer that is martial instead of arcane. So i am going on sort of a blend of artificer and ranger; You get the main minion if you choose to go construct engineer path; you can have multiple constructs, just only the one strong one. The rest that they make do special attacks like Clockwork ExFi-A which all it does is sit there and can be moved until it is either detonated with a minor action, or is reduced to 0 HP in which it then explodes. It has no other use, it can't attack, and its defenses arn't that high.
for Calculated Twin Strike, the secondary attack is a melee basic attack to either the primary target, or another in reach. IF you have the combat engineer feature you can instead choose to make an attack with teh Engineer's Chain at-will to any target within range 10 as per the power.
Martial power source is derived from years of training and study compared to just hardnessing powers outside of the natural world; The engineer is sort of a scientist and a tinkerer, outside the norms of Martial powersource, but it does still fit within it. And this class would fit in with any campaign that has warforged in it; those after all are living constructs, what this class does isn't even that powerful.
I wanted to expand what is possible with the martial powersource, Controller is the only class role that isn't covered in martial.
Out of all the power soruces released thus far and future ones that i know of, Martial is the only one that fits; The engineer has their abilities through training, study, and implementation. Yes, it does add some parts that arn't pure martial such as alchemy; Yet alchemy can be done with absolutly no magical aptitude (so can rituals but that isn't hte point at the moment), and is natural and not magical directly. Only way to fix this is to make up my own power source to replace it.
It's got a lot more in common with the artificer than it does with the fighter. IMHO it's arcane training and study.
They would be at home in an engineering library. They would not be at home in military barracks.
They have the arcana skill which all arcane classes have an no martial classes have AND they lack athletics which all martial classes have.
Alchemy is not natural. Alchemy is magical. Chemistry exists in the real world, alchemy does not.
And this class would fit in with any campaign that has warforged in it; those after all are living constructs, what this class does isn't even that powerful.
warforged where forged with magic.
I wanted to expand what is possible with the martial powersource, Controller is the only class role that isn't covered in martial.
have you looked at the other martial controller homebrew classes, there are at least ten out there.
I'm as big a booster of the idea of a martial controller as anyone, but even I have to admit that alchemy has a much more arcane than martial feel to it. Sure, /using/ alchemical weapons, if such are commonplace in the setting, could be martial, and mechanical gimicks aren't entirely out of the question for a martial class. And, yes, swinging swords feels a lot more martial than arcane, but that didn't stop the WotST or Swordmage. But, making alchemical items certainly feels arcane, and contructs are certainly as magical as anything else an artificer does.
If your intent is to stretch the realm of the martial power source, you're certainly doing so. People seem to want to judge the martial source by a much stricter standard of plausibility than the others, which is neither 'fair,' nor apropriate to the heroic fantasy genre, in which nominally non-magical heros often perform the most outlandish feats through sheer skill, courage, determination and luck (or plot conventions). Challenging that tendency is a good thing. There are a number of us dreaming up our own take on the Martial Controller, so if WotC ever does relent and create one, they'll have a lot of material to draw upon.
The sword mage does use a sword, but he imbues it with arcane power so it bursts with fire or teleports him across the room.
they also have plenty of powers that they can use with wands if they pick up a feat for using wands.
It wouldn't be that hard to make a wand based sword mage who uses lots of blasts. Which leaves no doubts about sword mages being arcane.
They do have the arcana skill available because they are intelligent and well studied; about athetics i can add that. and martial does not mean only trained in using weapons. martial means your character is a hero through years of training and study not "swing sword bash." the Engineer uses purely natural methods to creating his constructs, he dosn't cast magic to imbue them with life nor does he fling around spells and teleports. He uses iron, steel, and his intellect to fight. Given that yes he's not a typical martial character who relies completely on a weapon and armor to see him through like the fighter or warlord, he uses other natural methods to succeeding. Plus, comparing it to an artificer, yes they both create constructs, but artificers are arcane leaders using magical energy to do such; this is a class that does so out of years of study of mechanics and applying that. By saying that this class is similar to an artificer on ONE of this three paths you can choose is just wrong; It has a completely different role to play in combat and a different way to approach it.
Thing is it is not an artificer; artificers imbue metal with elemental spirits. Yes alchemy is still semi-magical, but a LOT of alchemical formulas actually use thievery for its craft instead of arcana. On alchemy being arcane: being able to use alchemy or rituals dosn't automatically make your character an arcane class; every and any class can take the feats for ritual casting or alchemy; having its use as part of a class then dosn't make it automatically an arcane class.
Thing is it is not an artificer; artificers imbue metal with elemental spirits. Yes alchemy is still semi-magical, but a LOT of alchemical formulas actually use thievery for its craft instead of arcana. On alchemy being arcane: being able to use alchemy or rituals dosn't automatically make your character an arcane class; every and any class can take the feats for ritual casting or alchemy; having its use as part of a class then dosn't make it automatically an arcane class.
every class can feat into ritual casting
every class can MC into arcane casting
Neither fact makes all classes arcane.
But when a class using wields arcane powers as part of the class, the class is arcane.
Frost Spike Engineer Attack 1
You fill a metal spike with alchemical frost and throw it at an group of foes
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Encounter ✦ Arcane, Cold, Implement
Standard Action Area blast 3 within 10 squares
Target: Creatures in blast
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
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Hit: 1d12 + Int modifier cold and slowed until end of next turn
Trapsmith Engineer: Instead slowed (save ends)
would anyone question it being arcane?
It's powered with booklearning.
Then all i have to do is refluf powers to say its filled with a chemical instead of an alchemical substance then it can be considered martial. Learning by a book dosn't automatically designate it as being arcane. If that was the case, sorcerers and warlocks wouldn't be considered arcane because they obtain their arcane power through a differing source. Same with this, to be a martial character dosn't mean all your training and expertise has to be combat training.
PHB pg 54 "Martial characters use their own strength and willpower to vanquish their enemies. Training and dedication replace arcane formulas and prayers..." Not once does it say you cannot be a scholar or a bookish character. Yes, i can concede the point in saying alchemy is arcane because some people view it that way. All the arcana based formulas also have thievery. You dont have to be an arcane caster to create said formulas. If it helps, i switched Arcana with Athletics.
They are powered through science and chemistry; it was a given with the class. They dont use magical forces to power it. I understand what your saying about it not fitting in with martial; the best fix is to make a new power source and name it Science or Clockwork or something. It is definantly designed not to be a magic class, nor do i want it to do anything with magic (unless you still support teh point that alchemy is purely arcane, when that isn't the truth).
I'm sorry if it seems like i'm frustraited, i just dont like it when people tell me i'm wrong with something i've created. i KNOW what it is. it is not arcane, it isn't magical. Your equating real-world definitions of the arcane and martial into a fantasy game that dosn't follow those conventional definitions and you refuse to even see that point. this class uses NOTHING magical short of having the intellect to be able to do something ANYONE can do if they wish to learn. Yes by conventional and modern definition of arcane, this class would; BUT you fail to realize that according to DnD 4e definition of arcane this definantly DOES NOT fall under arcane; Yes its abilities are able to replicate and immitate arcane effects, but it does so through science, not magic. Even says martial characters are able to pull of feats of skill and training that can seem like its magic although its not. that is what i'm saying, and you dont want to see that because this isn't a martial class that revolves around using a weapon.
The engineer gets his weaponry/beast YUST like the the ranger gets his beast companion. ("its not martial but what the heck")
The way the engineer fights is like the martial character fights: throwing a chain doesn't require years of booklearning; it requires a you standing in front of a tree and hitting it. doing it once, doing it a thousand times: clearly martial. - and that is why I think the class is martial.
You might say that the way he controls his construct is not martial, and I'll say the same thing of the way the ranger uses his beast companion: the ranger has 100% over his beast without requiring any verbal, somatic, ... components - it just requires the ranger to be present en conscious. This is clearly beyond any mere training.
so what are the constructs powered by?Duracell?
worst case senario? anything as simple as a patato with a copper and a zinc pin attached in enough create a current.
'Clockwork' in a name usually mean the need to get winded up.
and you dont want to see that because this isn't a martial class that revolves around using a weapon.
I grow so tried of straw men.
I'm not saying it's arcane because it doesn't use a weapon. I'm saying it's arcane because as a robot builder I can assure you, robots are arcane creations. Magical? well what is 'magic'
I think Arther C. Clark put it best
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
www.quotationspage.com/quote/776.html
So, by that ruling then, sense your going by real-world definitions to define powersources in DnD, that any modern technology can be considered magic. If you use two magnets to make an object float, is it magic? Yes, in a standard midievil setting it can be considered magic. As i've said before thsi class is more suited for semi-tech campaign settings such as ebberron. In that setting this isn't considered magic. In a typical no-tech culture, i understand where i can be seen as that; but the fact is, it has nothing magical about it; it dosn't channel otherworldly powers to fuel it, it has no unnatural components that make it run (as the artificer constructs), its purely mechanical. Trust me, i get your point that to the commoner it would be seen as magic, because they have no clue how it works. I get that, i really do; the fact is though if a commoner where to ask the engineer how he does it, all he would say is that he uses natural chemicals and iron. No hocus pokus, no voodoo, no channeling otherworldly powers, just elbow grease, calculated theory, and materials. Nothing secret or mysterious about it. ANYBODY can learn to be an engineer with dedication. 4E is made for heroic characters; Yes, its easy for a fighter to learn how to swing a sword; i mean who can't? To be heroic though they take it beyond hte normal limits. Just because one person learns from more methods then just going through training regements dosn't mean that they automatically are magical. If that was the case, warlords should be considered arcane; I mean, you think they learn ALL of their abilities through combat experience? i highly doubt it, as a warlord is a leader. They wouldnt' be able to learn everything they know about strategy and tactics through combat training, they would study other leaders, learn tactics through schooling of some sort (more then likely through training in an organized military). Even then, organized military does have more then field training, there are classes on tactics, strategy, first aid, ect. There is more to learning how to be a martial character then "here is a sword. you see that target dummy over there? go take a couple of whacks at it." By saying its arcane because it learns more through studying and experimentation then actual physical exersize is rather stupid, if i may so myself. And even if the argument that all martial characters are trained in the field; who would train them? someone better and more knowledged then themselves. And if that is the case, the same can be for an engineer; They could be an apprentice under an already established engineer who would teach them completely bypassing your statement that they only learn from a book.
read the damn quote.
not 'any modern' it's 'any sufficiently advanced'
Clockwork Constructs are sufficiency advanced
They are powered through science and chemistry; it was a given with the class. They dont use magical forces to power it. I understand what your saying about it not fitting in with martial; the best fix is to make a new power source and name it Science or Clockwork or something.
Most D&D worlds are fantasy settings. They don't use science or chemistry, instead, they use magic and alchemy. Even Ebberon seems to use magic to explain it's clockwork constructs - as witnessed by the Artificer class.
'Science' could be a power source, I suppose, one apropriate to campaigns that need an alternative to magic, or that combine magic with technology to creat a science fantasy setting. Heck, Psionic is a power source, it wouldn't be any worse than that. That might be the best way to go with this class. It'd also give you an opening to have multiple classes developed along similar lines. You could use a re-flavored Artificer for leader, maybe a powered-armor type as a defender, and a lethal gunman as a striker - all making thier own, personal equipment.
Qube blogged recently about a similar Power Source idea.
tony, I'm gonna let you handle this one from here on out.
I've read enough walls of text full of spelling errors and strawmen
I'll end with one more link:
I'll probably end up talking to qube to make this a class based off of his power source and maybe work with him to make some other ones (i do have a few ideas). My main argument this whole time has just been the fact this class uses no magic. Using a different powersource would be the best idea at this time.
I'll probably end up talking to qube to make this a class based off of his power source and maybe work with him to make some other ones (i do have a few ideas). My main argument this whole time has just been the fact this class uses no magic. Using a different powersource would be the best idea at this time.
For a new powersource, there's a trick about it: a power source is something bogus. The most important thing about DnD 4e classes is balance, hence the combat rules. There would be nothing different with a wizard if it would say 'arcane', 'hokus-pokus', or 'martial' for that matter - only the fluff would change.
Now, Henry's biggest concern is that he doesn't believe that 'martial' fits your fluff. By simply changing one word 'martial' to something else (be it 'gizmo', 'tech', 'clockwork','alchemy' * ...) fixes the problem.
*: i would include 'arcane', but then there could be people who complain that it isn't magic