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| #1harzerkatzeFeb 20, 2009 12:02:16 | Hi there, I have the opinion that the equipment rules for characters starting on higher levels are not very good. Plus, the treasure parcel rule confuse me too much. The rules say that a character starting at higher level gets one item of his level+1, one item of his level and one of his level-1, plus money equal to his level-1. In my view, there are too few items that are really useful to a character to make it probable that he can find fitting items of exactly these levels, especially considering that these wshould most probably be weapon/implements, armor and neck slot item. He'l most probably waste a lot of value by taking lower-level items, since he can't e.g. scale back at two items and for that get one item at his level+2. So instead I've houseruled that the items mentioned above are just given to the character as money at their shopping value (not the 1/5th sale value) and he buys from that what he wants. Here is the list of the starting gold that would mean for the first 10 levels: Level 1 --- 100 gp Level 2 --- 1920 gp Level 3 --- 2560 gp Level 4 --- 3200 gp Level 5 --- 4480 gp Level 6 --- 6400 gp Level 7 --- 9600 gp Level 8 --- 12800 gp Level 9 --- 16000 gp Level 10 --- 22400 gp Apart from the obvious leap at reaching 2nd level (it's the same when you use the RAW): What do you guys think? Balanced? Unbalancing? Actually, as a DM I use this table to calculate the money my player find in an adventure: When the XP show me that the players will gain a level in 2 evenings, I compare the wealth they have with the table entry for their next level and include the difference in the two evening's adventures. I also choose a few items I think are nice or fitting and deduct their sale value from the money to be found. Done. Seems to work well and is much less complicated than the parcel rules. Does the treasure parcel concept have certain advantages I miss with my simplified concept? |
| #2dark_lamboFeb 20, 2009 14:51:25 | It is unbalancing. Gold equivalent is worth considerably more than the items as is. This is supposed to be the trade-off between being able to customize (ie. optimize) your gear, and being stuck with what you find. At higher levels, if you pick a level (for example) 8, 9, 10 item, you can easily buy a number of lower level items with the gold equivalent of a level 8 item anyways. At (for example) level 4, building using gold equivalent would result in considerably more powerful synergy than using the guidelines. |
| #3EmpactWBFeb 21, 2009 14:18:19 | This should be in the houserules forum. As to the houserule itself, I agree with DL that it is unbalancing. If you want some help getting the treasure parcel system, I'm perfectly willing to help. If you want some help with refining your houserule, I'm willing to help with that too. Just let me know the direction you'd prefer to start in. |
| #4harzerkatzeFeb 22, 2009 3:43:18 | Refining my system to amke it more balancing would be fine. Here is the problem: In my campaign, players tent to jump in and out. Some often have to work on game day every now and then, Game Master is a role taken by someone else every now and then etc. So if I just used treasure parcels as written (the way I understand them), the players that are there more often would soon have the best equipment and a power imbalance would arise, same with XP. That would be unfair, seeing that players can't help having no time, and especially the GM's character should not be penalized because his player took the unpopular role upon himself. For that reason, I normalize XP and treasure every few evenings, saying every player now has X XP and Y gp equivalent of wealth. Which is similar to have players start with higher-level characters of the same built as their old one. So, what I need is a system to make higher-level characters that is simple on the one hand and fair on the other. The existing system seems to be disadvantagous to the "new" characters to me. So how do I optimize my system to be better balanced? |
| #5EmpactWBFeb 22, 2009 12:54:35 | Refining my system to make it more balancing would be fine. And we have a direction, but I'm going to address the parcel system first. Here is the problem: In my campaign, players tent to jump in and out. Some often have to work on game day every now and then, Game Master is a role taken by someone else every now and then etc. So if I just used treasure parcels as written (the way I understand them), the players that are there more often would soon have the best equipment and a power imbalance would arise, same with XP. That would be unfair, seeing that players can't help having no time, and especially the GM's character should not be penalized because his player took the unpopular role upon himself. Personal opinions on GM characters aside, there's a rather large flaw in your understanding of the system. You're supposed to place magic items in the treasure for specific party members (which you either hand-pick for them or get a wishlist from them for ideas). Moreover, you're supposed to add extra magic items if you have more than five players. Over the course of five levels, each character should get four magic items. Monetary treasure ought to be divvied up by the players fairly (which is not necessarily the same as evenly; my group gives the ritualist an extra portion of gold to cover costs). It's not designed to be a "finders keepers" set-up. I think trying the parcel system and specifically laying out which items are for which characters might be the best thing to do in your situation. For that reason, I normalize XP and treasure every few evenings, saying every player now has X XP and Y gp equivalent of wealth. Which is similar to have players start with higher-level characters of the same built as their old one. Normalization is something we adopted at our game as well. We still get lump sums of gold, but divvy them as we see fit (either evenly or according to expenses). We also sometimes get lump sums of XP, since some players joined after others and thus missed initial sessions. We divided up those to normalize our levels and keep us on the same page. So, what I need is a system to make higher-level characters that is simple on the one hand and fair on the other. The existing system seems to be disadvantageous to the "new" characters to me. I think that if you're not actually creating new characters, you should just use the parcels as written. The group needs to work together; one person being under-equipped is not balanced out by another person being over-equipped. So how do I optimize my system to be better balanced? I'm not sure. I don't see it really fixing anything. The problem I think you're trying to fix is treasure-hording by party-members. The parcel system assumes fair distribution, and the simplest solution is to enforce that. So here's the amount you'd gain (including magic item value) as a solo adventurer at each level: Level 1 --- 1060 gp Level 2 --- 1430 gp Level 3 --- 1825 gp Level 4 --- 3010 gp Level 5 --- 4050 gp Level 6 --- 6000 gp Level 7 --- 7900 gp Level 8 --- 9900 gp Level 9 --- 15000 gp Level 10 --- 20200 gp That's "gain", obviously. So you'd "have" the level 1 value when you begin level 2. The difference between this and the amount you'd be giving the characters is: Level 1 --- +0 gp Level 2 --- +860 gp Level 3 --- +1130 gp Level 4 --- +1375 gp Level 5 --- +1470 gp Level 6 --- +2350 gp Level 7 --- +3600 gp Level 8 --- +4900 gp Level 9 --- +5100 gp Level 10 --- +7400 gp You can see just how much extra this is over what the game is really balanced for as far as wealth at each level. That's between several additional magic items at each level, which will make the game much easier when you're giving it to each and every character rather than (as most of the value would normally be) dividing it up among the players. Even giving everyone solo-value is above the curve for larger parties, as there's only about 25% less gold at each level for a solo that for a normal five-man party (since you need to equip yourself far better to stand alone than to stand as part of a cohesive group). The rules are written to avoid the time it takes to spend all of the gold you would otherwise have, and the parcel rules make it easier still since you aren't making new characters. I guess the simplest thing to do would be to give each character their solo-value in gold and let them go at it. It will still be heavily unbalanced in favor of the PCs, but less so. |
| #6harzerkatzeFeb 23, 2009 4:02:19 | So here's the amount you'd gain (including magic item value) as a solo adventurer at each level: Nice, that's a step ahead. I will rather use this as a baseline then. Can you judge how much better this distribution is compared to what each player in a five player group would get from parcel value? Do I understand it right that when you say "a solo player gets 1060 at level 1, that means he gets it over the course of level 1, so 1060 is really the money he would have at the beginning of level 2? Regarding the even distribution of the parcel value, effectively I have the following situation: We have a group of nine characters of which four to six usually are present at a given adventure. One player is the GM at the time, so his character isn't in the group, and two or three have no time on that evening. I am having trouble imagining how to distribute the wealth evenly. If player X who wasn't there last time is there today, does every other player give him 1/6th of the gold he got last evening? What if a player bought something from his money? This sounds like a major headache at the beginning of every session. The party has the firepower of five characters and thus gets the treasure of around five players, but has to distribute the wealth by nine? Also, wouldn't I have to place items selected for each of the nine characters in the parcels, which means the number of items each player gets is seriously reduced, because he carries a lot of junk around that character X gets next time he plays? Or do I give the treasure of nine, but as the GM subtract the items and money supposed to belong to the characters not there? That's sound like it requires quite a bit of bookkeeping, but seems like the fairest. But isn't the treasure value per player in a nine character group lesser then in a six character group, what my group is effectively in an encounter? |
| #7EmpactWBFeb 24, 2009 0:28:17 | Nice, that's a step ahead. I will rather use this as a baseline then. Can you judge how much better this distribution is compared to what each player in a five player group would get from parcel value? That's more difficult. The monetary value is easy enough: a five way split from each level breaks down to: Level 1 --- 144 gp Level 2 --- 208 gp Level 3 --- 271 gp Level 4 --- 336 gp Level 5 --- 400 gp Level 6 --- 720 gp Level 7 --- 1040 gp Level 8 --- 1360 gp Level 9 --- 1680 gp Level 10 --- 2000 gp But a solo character gets only one magic item at each level, and it's a level + 2 item. For a five person party, there are four magic items at each level (meaning it takes five levels for the number to equalize, and the value never really does). Reading ahead, you have a nine person party. That means you'll be giving out eight items across each level, two of each at levels +1 through +4. It's likely impossible to distribute that perfectly equally, which is why wishlists are awesome. They help you plan out what you want to give and when, hopefully keeping it more balanced. Do I understand it right that when you say "a solo player gets 1060 at level 1, that means he gets it over the course of level 1, so 1060 is really the money he would have at the beginning of level 2? Yes, mostly. That includes the value of his magic item, though. Only 520 of that is actual money/treasure. Regarding the even distribution of the parcel value, effectively I have the following situation: We have a group of nine characters of which four to six usually are present at a given adventure. One player is the GM at the time, so his character isn't in the group, and two or three have no time on that evening. How do you explain the absence of the characters? Are they off doing their own thing and gaining money, experience, and items? Or are they just not around? If the former, simply figure out their share, and give them a note card when the player returns letting them know what they picked up (their fair share of the gold and whatever item they would have picked up). Then just cut the items/gold out of what you have to give out that evening. You have a party of nine. Plan treasures as if you will always have nine, and just let everyone know what their share is. What's easier for you, saying "Okay, we found 450 gold tonight, so everyone take 50 and the guys who are absent will get theirs next time" and keeping track of the totals or "Okay, we have enough gold so everyone's share is 50" and then just making a note of how much each character is gaining? Also, wouldn't I have to place items selected for each of the nine characters in the parcels, which means the number of items each player gets is seriously reduced, because he carries a lot of junk around that character X gets next time he plays? Not really. If they aren't there, don't give out their magic item. Maybe a guy misses a few sessions, and when he comes back, give him all of his magic items and his share of gold as things he found on his solo quest. Tie in the down time into their continuing stories and let them advance just as much as everyone else. Or let that character find a hidden cache at the next game, or fight a duel against a personal rival, or any number of things to handwave them being just as well equipped as they need to be. Or do I give the treasure of nine, but as the GM subtract the items and money supposed to belong to the characters not there? That's sound like it requires quite a bit of bookkeeping, but seems like the fairest. But isn't the treasure value per player in a nine character group lesser then in a six character group, what my group is effectively in an encounter? Not so much bookkeeping as you expect. If you plan the treasure ahead, splitting it into shares is simple enough (though it may be easier to split it in 10 and make a party fund for things like ritual components and such). Yes, monetary treasure per character is lower for a party of nine than for a party of six. The parcels system doesn't give more gold for more PCs, just more magic items. (And it only gives fewer gold if you're on a solo quest.) But if you think that's a problem (and it may be, but it's not one I've had to give much thought about yet), we've already solved it above: the five way split numbers are what the system is balanced for, so make those the shares. That might be the most balanced solution: (mostly) natural progression and an increase in the treasure value to be the expected norm for any given five-man group from the party of nine. |
| #8harzerkatzeFeb 24, 2009 7:04:34 | I just realized that it mathematically quite simple to calculate how much wealth a character at a certain level is supposed to have: According to page 125 of th DMG, during one level I as DM am supposed to give a group of five players four magic items of level+1 to level+4 and money equal to twice their level. So if we say that I would give players only items they want, e.g. from a wishlist, and distribute the levels of the items evenly between level+1 and level+4, then we can just calculate (BoI = Buying price of an item of level): Money gained during [level] = ( BoI [level+1] + BoI [level+2] + BoI [level+3] + BoI [level+4] + 2*BoI [level]) / 5 Is that right? If so, we get the following table: Level 1 * 100 gp Level 2 * 1072 gp Level 3 * 1520 gp Level 4 * 2096 gp Level 5 * 2800 gp Level 6 * 3760 gp Level 7 * 5360 gp Level 8 * 7600 gp Level 9 * 10460 gp Level 10 * 14000 gp If I am not mistaken, that should be exactly the value of items and money given to a character in a five person group during each of the levels. But that is per level! So accumudated, we get the following final table: Wealth per player at the beginning of level: --------------------------------------------- Level 1- - - 100 gp Level 2- - - 852 gp Level 3- - - 1.924 gp Level 4- - - 3.444 gp Level 5- - - 5.540 gp Level 6- - - 8.340 gp Level 7- - - 12.100 gp Level 8- - - 17.460 gp Level 9- - - 25.060 gp Level 10 - - 35.540 gp Level 11 - - 49.540 gp Level 12 - - 68.340 gp Level 13 - - 95.140 gp Level 14 - - 133.140 gp Level 15 - - 185.540 gp Level 16 - - 255.540 gp Level 17 - - 349.540 gp Level 18 - - 483.540 gp Level 19 - - 673.540 gp Level 20 - - 935.540 gp Level 21 - - 1.285.540 gp Level 22 - - 1.755.540 gp Level 23 - - 2.425.540 gp Level 24 - - 3.375.540 gp Level 25 - - 4.685.540 gp Level 26 - - 6.435.540 gp Level 27 - - 8.785.540 gp Is that right? Let's check: A group of five at the beginning of level 5 will have gotten items of level: 2,3,4,5 (level 1), 3,4,5,6 (level 2), 4,5,6,7 (level 3), 5,6,7,8 (level 4), so 16 items of a total value of 22400 gp, plus money equal to 2*BoI(1)+2*BoI(2)+2*BoI(3)+2*BoI(4) (sum 5300) plus the 5*100 gp they started with, so the group will have aquired a wealth of 27700, of which everyone gets a share of 5540 gp. Checks out, it seems to me. Now, this assumes that the players get the ideal items, for they can buy them themselves. But the wish list proposal from the DMG is more or less the same. A problem could be that a player following my system could use the gold to buy an item more than 4 levels higher than he is. But if we take the level 5 group above, a level 5 player would have 5540 gp. A level 9 item (four higher then the level he had when he found his last item) costs 4200 gp, so he'd seriously have to cut back on his other otems. Does not seem too unbalancing to me. On the other hand, the player could buy a greater number of lower-level items. But I don't see an issue there, either, the slot system keeps that into place. A normal level 10 character has 8 items plus what he bought for 2000 gp, how many items would he want? A diffenence is that at higher levels, you don't have to sell all your surplus items first at the abysmal 1/5th price to get a decent item. Remember that by level 20, a character is supposed to have found 16 items, of which he probably will have sold half for a fifth of their value. In my system he gets the full value. But again, I don't see that as unbalancing, for the sold items were probably much lower level. Can anybody check against my math? If I am correct, the numbers in my first post were rather too low. Or am I totally wrong from the get go? |
| #9EmpactWBFeb 24, 2009 16:29:46 | I just realized that it mathematically quite simple to calculate how much wealth a character at a certain level is supposed to have: Actually, it's quite impossible. The value of the magic items is not shared among the group, nor is it supposed to be. It's not evenly distributed at all, but the party works best when each member is not suffering from insufficient equipment. Money gained during [level] = ( BoI [level+1] + BoI [level+2] + BoI [level+3] + BoI [level+4] + 2*BoI [level]) / 5 But those four items are generally given to only four characters, not all five. Communal items (battle standards and the like) might be reasonably considered to be equally divided, but not armor, weapons, etc. Is that right? If so, we get the following table: It might be balanced over the course of five levels, but not on an individual level. Now, this assumes that the players get the ideal items, for they can buy them themselves. But the wish list proposal from the DMG is more or less the same. Agreed. A problem could be that a player following my system could use the gold to buy an item more than 4 levels higher than he is. But if we take the level 5 group above, a level 5 player would have 5540 gp. A level 9 item (four higher then the level he had when he found his last item) costs 4200 gp, so he'd seriously have to cut back on his other items. Does not seem too unbalancing to me. How about five items of level 5 and an item of level 2? Or two level 7 items? Or three level 6? Or a level 6, three level 5s, and a level 2 or 3 (or two level 1s)? Without expenses (such as ritual components or traveling expenses), you can potentially afford a lot more synergistic items on or about your level than you would probably gain naturally. Three level 6 items per character means 15 in a group of five PCs, compared to only six items above level five that they would have gained through adventuring. Now, can you be sure that isn't overpowering? On the other hand, the player could buy a greater number of lower-level items. But I don't see an issue there, either, the slot system keeps that into place. A normal level 10 character has 8 items plus what he bought for 2000 gp, how many items would he want? There are seven categories of items, one of which is further broken up into slots: weapons, implements, armor, clothing, rings, wondrous items, and potions/consumables. Most classes use either weapons or implements, some few use both (though some weapons serve as both, negating the division). So that's one to three items there. Armor is another that everyone will grab, and out of clothing, the system assumes you'll have a neck slot item. A difference is that at higher levels, you don't have to sell all your surplus items first at the abysmal 1/5th price to get a decent item. Remember that by level 20, a character is supposed to have found 16 items, of which he probably will have sold half for a fifth of their value. In my system he gets the full value. But again, I don't see that as unbalancing, for the sold items were probably much lower level. Five items of level one equal one item of level six. Five sixes are eleven. That adds up quickly if you give them total value they would have acquired at all levels. It always adds up to five items of that level and an item of level -3 (or 5 items of level -8, or fifteen of level -13, etc). At higher levels, though, you can also start affording an item with the leftover change of level -7, or five of level -12, or 15 of level -17... Let's take a level 18 character for a minute. They can have: five level 18 items, fifteen level 5 items, and fifteen level 1 items. Up to thirty-five magic items. You're right, who would need that many? Batman, that's who. Anyone else would be taking fewer magic items, but far more powerful ones. And we've already established that the baseline five of your level is more powerful than the system anticipates, let alone the "chump change" thirty items. Can anybody check against my math? If I am correct, the numbers in my first post were rather too low. Or am I totally wrong from the get go? Your math is good. The system for creating new characters above level one assumes expenditures for consumables, like potions, ritual components, etc, and losses from disenchanting/selling unused items. Your system doesn't. That makes your system inflated compared to actual gameplay. Fairly massively, I believe, although there are threads about optimizing wealth where your numbers could be checked. |
| #10harzerkatzeFeb 25, 2009 2:31:13 | But those four items are generally given to only four characters, not all five. Communal items (battle standards and the like) might be reasonably considered to be equally divided, but not armor, weapons, etc. It might be balanced over the course of five levels, but not on an individual level. But what you are saying is that in normal play, some characters have better equipment and some have less good equipment. For example, after finishing level 1, four characters will have a new shiny magic item and one will not. So the system is generally unfair except for very few levels. I don't really see it as bad when my system is not as unfair as the original. The system for creating new characters above level one assumes expenditures for consumables, like potions, ritual components, etc, and losses from disenchanting/selling unused items. Your system doesn't. That makes your system inflated compared to actual gameplay. Fairly massively, I believe. That may indeed be the case. I have not played a lot yet and thus have no experience how much money usually gets lost to consumables, rituals, raise dead etc. Nor can I judge the effect of giving the player the option of getting more but lower level items. I'll just have to try it out, I guess. Thanks for your input. |
| #11EmpactWBFeb 25, 2009 11:22:28 | But what you are saying is that in normal play, some characters have better equipment and some have less good equipment. For example, after finishing level 1, four characters will have a new shiny magic item and one will not. So the system is generally unfair except for very few levels. And the next level, that guy has a more powerful shiny new item than at least one of the others, and one other guy doesn't get one. And the next level, the same it true. It's not unfair. It's just looking at a bigger picture than individual levels. I don't really see it as bad when my system is not as unfair as the original. Your system is more equal, not necessarily more fair. Both systems have provisions so that no one character lags behind permanently; the method is different. That may indeed be the case. I have not played a lot yet and thus have no experience how much money usually gets lost to consumables, rituals, raise dead etc. Nor can I judge the effect of giving the player the option of getting more but lower level items. I think you'll never get anything more than anecdotal evidence on this, but if you have optimizers, I think you'll see fairly quickly whether or not there will be problems. I'll just have to try it out, I guess. Thanks for your input. Not a problem. You're going to have to let me know how it works out. ![]() |
| #12DBrignerMar 23, 2009 21:38:01 | Hi there, I think by giving the players items of varying levels, they limit them from putting all their money into one item that their going to use over and over again. So I suppose it really depends on what kind of players you have. I know for my newer group, this isn't too much of an issue, for my older players, I enforce this rule as strictly as possible, but when in doubt I say "You can trade down one of your items, (ie lvl+1 for lvl, or lvl-1, lvl for lvl-1) and get the difference in gold, but you can't go below lvl -1, and you can never trade up. In my experience as a DM, players with one really good toy will ride that thing until they can afford the next one, but players with many good toys, will utilize each one as much as possible. I dare say the limit on magic item powers per day is a bigger problem. Yeah, giving your players a big chunk of money is unbalanced, unless you set a level cap on what's available to buy... "At lvl 2 you get 1920 gold, but you can't buy anything above level 3, or 4" may help keep the peace, that way no one has a big ticket item that they go into a Nerd Rage about when in one of your campaigns you have to confiscate their weapons and put them in a prison of some sort. Mayb it's just my experiences have been bad, but **** can get ugly fast. Oh and if you're worried about a character being left in the cold on a magic item, then throw an extra one in anyway, it's not the end of the world. |
| #13NominrathJun 02, 2009 16:36:54 | I too find the equipment for higher levels too unbalancing... at least for the first few levels, anyway. For example, according to this rule, if you make a 2nd level character, that character would have 3 magic items just to himself. Really? A standard party of 5 would only have four magic items for the whole group going by the standard Treasure Parcel system, but this 2nd level character gets three to start PLUS gold and any standard items he wants? All I gotta' say is 'whoa.' Anyway, my point is, I think that these rules were intended more for making Paragon and Epic characters and maybe late Heroic characters rather than just higher level characters in general... Just my opinion, though. As for understanding the Parcel system, it's actually quite simple. In order to level up a standard party of 5, it's supposed to take 8-10 encounters. There are 10 parcels in a standard treasure horde. In theory, you could 'assign' 1 parcel to 1 encounter. But it's suggested that you combine some parcels, meaning that some encounters won't have treasure and some will have 2 or more parcels depending on how you divide it. If you're still looking, I hope this helps. Nominrath |