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| #1doresainJun 29, 2008 0:12:40 | Purpose: Give wizards more versatility and make spells feel even more different from other powers without making wizards vastly more powerful. Rules: 1. -Wizards' Encounter spells work same as their daily/utility spells – they go in the spellbook, and they choose 2/mem 1. 2. Wizards start at level 1 with a full complement of spells at level 1, but do not gain any on leveling up. Spells be found and deciphered through Arcana checks, much like rituals. A Wizard may know a max number of spells per level equal to what he would have gained under the old system (ie, two per level, or three per level with expanded spellbook). He can still only prepare the usual amount per day. 3. When gaining spells of higher levels, old spells are not mystically forgotten. Spells much lower level than the wizard still remain an option to him when he loads spells each day. 4. When memorizing spells, you can 'trade down' in levels, much like downgrading a standard action to a move action. For example, I could choose to memorize two level one daily spells instead of a level one and a level five, but NOT two level fives. Wizards still cannot memorize the same spell more than once. ...thats all I have for now. What are the balance issues? Where are the flaws? Am I achieving my goal here? |
| #2alumanJun 29, 2008 0:24:11 | Purpose: Give wizards more versatility and make spells feel even more different from other powers without making wizards vastly more powerful. Probably not too bad. Could lead to having two wizards for the price of one, not convinced thats strictly bad thing 2. Wizards start at level 1 with a full complement of spells at level 1, but do not gain any on leveling up. Spells be found and deciphered through Arcana checks, much like rituals. A Wizard may know a max number of spells per level equal to what he would have gained under the old system (ie, two per level, or three per level with expanded spellbook). He can still only prepare the usual amount per day. So they are crippled, as when the fighter dings he automatically gets stuff, when the warlock dings he gets stuff, the wizard has to 'find' spells. 3. When gaining spells of higher levels, old spells are not mystically forgotten. Spells much lower level than the wizard still remain an option to him when he loads spells each day. The first one is ok, the rest weakens the wizard, as it takes control of the class out of the player's hands (He has to rely on the spell he wants being available and found). The downgrading means little with the caveat that you can't memorize the same spell more than once. |
| #3doresainJun 29, 2008 0:51:52 | So they are crippled, as when the fighter dings he automatically gets stuff, when the warlock dings he gets stuff, the wizard has to 'find' spells. Well, in my game I'm planning on throwing them out there pretty liberally. This is mostly a way to fix the logic flaw of 'okay I dinged I know more spells now instantaneously.' There is probably a more elegant way, and I am open to suggestions. The downgrading means little with the caveat that you can't memorize the same spell more than once. What if you COULD mem the same spell more than once by downgrading? What would that mean? I like it better, but am worried about balance. |
| #4squarecircleJun 29, 2008 1:02:53 | Well, in my game I'm planning on throwing them out there pretty liberally. This is mostly a way to fix the logic flaw of 'okay I dinged I know more spells now instantaneously.' There is probably a more elegant way, and I am open to suggestions. Just do it the old school way where characters have to "train" for a while after leveling up to justify their new powers. For the wizard this means training under a mentor, perhaps at a Magic Academy (if your PCs "home base" is a larger city). |
| #5alumanJun 29, 2008 1:10:44 | Well, in my game I'm planning on throwing them out there pretty liberally. This is mostly a way to fix the logic flaw of 'okay I dinged I know more spells now instantaneously.' There is probably a more elegant way, and I am open to suggestions. I simply go with they have the arcane books, and study them regularly, suddenly the forumla they have been studdying and suddenly they understand how it works. What if you COULD mem the same spell more than once by downgrading? What would that mean? I like it better, but am worried about balance. Multiple Sleeps. |
| #6doresainJun 29, 2008 1:17:20 | Multiple Sleeps. Right, heh. Planning on defanging sleep, and giving the sleeping creature an extra saving throw whenever it takes damage, and gain a cumulative +1 saving throw bonus after every such instance. Was tempted to make it wake when it takes damage automatically, but that seems like it could make sleep too weak. |
| #7alumanJun 29, 2008 1:20:51 | Right, heh. Planning on defanging sleep, and giving the sleeping creature an extra saving throw whenever it takes damage, and gain a cumulative +1 saving throw bonus after every such instance. Was tempted to make it wake when it takes damage automatically, but that seems like it could make sleep too weak. cumulative +1 does too. But its not just sleep, there are other spells on that level that make it where allowing more than one/day is bad. Like the bigby spells. |
| #8dmgurtookJun 29, 2008 16:58:28 | Giving them more dailys does make them over-powered compared to the other classes. True they are of lower level, but powers do not scale dramatically higher per level, so memorizing 3 or 4 acid arrows is better than having that one higher level spell. Your best bet is to just give them two new spells when they would recieve a new one and force them to choose which one they memorize (the expanded spellbook feat makes the wizard do this, you could jsut turn that into a class feature that takes effect every level), you get the old school flavor of the wizard without giving them dramatically more options then other characters. And when it comes to sleep, ANY damage or violent shaking will wake a creature affected by the spell. If it didn't then every NPC caster in the world would memorize it and use it on the PCs, making it so they can't wake but with a saving throw makes the spell more powerful than it was intended to be. Creatures can always spend a minor action (or you can houserule a move or standard action) to wake a fallen comrade, but then again, so can the players. |
| #9theonlyjettJun 30, 2008 19:21:10 | Maybe this will find more interest here. Show Scholar Wizard “Knowledge is power, and my knowledge is supreme.” CLASS TRAITS
Scholar Wizards are the last bastion of defense against the ignorance that has brought darkness to the world. Creating a Scholar Wizard You can stat one way or the other, but Arcane Aptitude and Arcane Study allow you to have a greater number of choices during an adventure, as well as a far greater number over several adventures. So even if you stat Wis based for better control, you may still be choosing slightly less powerful Int based attacks for a striker role on occasion. The reverse is also true. Additionally, the scholar wizard can go Cha and Con and cast strong, re-flavored, Warlock abilities. Although we can expect Arcane Leaders and Defenders in the future, the extremely low hit points and AC of the scholar wizard prevent seriously considering anything but minor dabbling in these roles. Wizard Class Features Arcane Aptitude As a class ability, the Scholar Wizard can choose an additional 2 encounter powers when they may choose one, and may use an additional encounter power during each encounter. The Scholar Wizard may also choose one additional At-Will power at 1st level. The scholar wizard may also choose from all powers available to any class from the Arcane power source. While they may be flavored again to fit the flavor of the scholar wizard, their stats may not change in any way. For instance, Eldritch Blast may be renamed Arcane Blast, but it still uses Cha or Con as it’s key attributes. Arcane Study A scholar wizard’s main drive is the accumulation of knowledge. If at all possible he will try to obtain a secure room somewhere for use as a personal study. There, he can keep all sorts of spellbooks from fallen foes, dusty tomes from obscure dungeons and hidden libraries. If a scholar wizard can spend enough time and gold to prepare the necessary spellbooks at their own study (if they can get one), then they may re-choose all available known powers. See spellbook section. Spellbook You possess a spellbook, a book full of mystic lore in which you store your rituals and your encounter, daily, and utility spells.
Scholar Wizard Powers
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| #10alumanJun 30, 2008 20:16:46 | Maybe this will find more interest here. That seems painfully low, as in less than Wizards, and wizards should be seen as the low mark, looking over the entire class it seems like old 2e balance of Wizard of 'fewer hitpoints so dies.' which is a flawed way to balance something. Arcane Aptitude So a Human wizard gets 4 at wills, and 2 encounter powers and 1 daily. Just a tad over pwoereful. Allowing them to strip both Warlock and (when it comes out) Spell blade freely is counter to 4E as well as it means if you want you can build a Scholar Wizard as a defender or striker. Arcane Study Something all classes get for free. The flavor text of retraining doesn't matter. Unless you mean they can retrain all at once all their abilities in which case 'hello broken wizard he changes his feats and gets a diffrent want for any occasion.' Spellbook See above. 2 of any (including encounter) probably isn't broke with 1/slot limits. [*]After an extended rest, you can prepare a number of daily and utility spells according to what you can cast per day for your level. You can’t prepare the same spell twice. Again the problem isn't just that Level Sleep is level 1 and something else isn't. Sleep and Flame sphere (Or Distingration and Evard's Black Tentacles) there are some levels where 2 really good spells occupy the same level, allowing them to willy-nilly memorize lower levels has reprcussions. [*]Cost and Capacity: The standard (and minimum) spellbook costs 50gp in supplies and materials. It contains 128 pages. Bigger spellbooks cost and weigh accordingly. For instance, a 256 page spellbook costs 100gp and weighs 6 lbs. A 192 page spellbook costs 75gp and weighs 4.5 lbs. I mostly ok with this, if you enforce torch costs on the party, it balances out. The idea is that there were numerous complaints about the wizard not being able to come reasonably close in feel to some previous wizard concepts. I think a lot of ground has been made, just with this, although I'm sure it could use a little tweeking. Yeah, downtweaking. Yes, he does have an extra encounter power, and he also has 4 encounter powers known at 1st level, but compare to say, the Cleric, who actually has 4 available encounter powers between the standard choice, the Channel Divinity cleric feature, and the healing word feature, which he can use twice per encounter. Divine Channeling and Healing Word generally benefit everyone or simulate old class features. Your wizard has 6 base at wills, no other class does. No, I don't think that they're entirely the same powers, but this is my excuse for letting this class have the extra ones it has. Also, the price paid was rather harsh, imo. The loss of implements, hit points, and even healing surges, really hurts, but is also an attempt to make the iconic "glass cannon" more glassy. If you ask me, the class if fairly balanced from what I can tell, but play testing is a must. Wait, I missed the loss of implements, so they have no way of increasing to hit? AC of monsters climb 1/level. this means that by level 15 you won't hit things. I'm wrong its not over powerful. Its Weak. Terribly Terribly Weak. |
| #11theonlyjettJun 30, 2008 21:38:37 | That seems painfully low, as in less than Wizards, and wizards should be seen as the low mark, looking over the entire class it seems like old 2e balance of Wizard of 'fewer hitpoints so dies.' which is a flawed way to balance something. Sure, the idea here is that the traditional "glass cannon" is more glassy. Lots more fragile. Now, we can go in between these HP and the Wizard's HP, and I'm sure that'd be fine. I'm not sure what the exact number here was to do. The complaint being addressed here was "too much HP." Now whether that's a valid complaint isn't here nor there, but it was something I thought could be tweaked some. Granted, I wouldn't exactly hand this to a new player as they'd probably just die a lot. Really, this is the part where it's the most tricky, basically, they should not get hit at all. and maybe die in two hits. Sucks, but that's the idea. Additionally, this keeps them from trying to fill the defender role later. I suppose, though, if need be, that the same starting Hit Points as the wizard and less gained per level can get you here, too. So a Human wizard gets 4 at wills, and 2 encounter powers and 1 daily. Just a tad over powerful. Allowing them to strip both Warlock and (when it comes out) Spell blade freely is counter to 4E as well as it means if you want you can build a Scholar Wizard as a defender or striker. Not a defender, not by a long shot. There's no body to put the defender powers on, any blade powers would require, well, a blade, so your spending feats on that, and there's no good strength. No, they might snatch a useful power or two, maybe, but they aren't going to be a defender. Striker, yes, hence "glass cannon." But this is the real strength of this write up to me. I can be a good striker OR a good controller, or maybe some of both. Thing is, you can't remake your stats, so when you get powers from other classes, they aren't going to be as good as whatever you stated for. Yes, I know that they can go Cha and Con and get good Warlock powers, but then their wizard powers are no longer as good. A Human Scholar Wizard gets 4 known encounter powers, but only can use 2. They get 4 choices of At-Will abilities. That's right. A Human Cleric gets 1 regular encounter power, the Channel Divinity encounter power (of which, using the extra human feat on the Channel Divinity Feat Power, gets him 3 different abilities to choose from), and 2 uses of Healing Word. That's 4 uses of encounter powers, 5 known, total. I figured these aren't two aren't actually too far apart. And that's not taking into account the fragile body. Something all classes get for free. The flavor text of retraining doesn't matter. Unless you mean they can retrain all at once all their abilities in which case 'hello broken wizard he changes his feats and gets a different want for any occasion.' Now here I took some liberty with DMs everywhere. If, in between adventures, a player wanted to change his character, generally speaking, it's not a problem. So what if I had a fighter and wanted to play a rouge now instead. It may be better party balance, or I may just want to play a different character concept. This is how this works. Essentially, you're just making another character, so all the powers can just be chosen again. As long as, during the course of the adventure, you have to keep your regular balanced selection of powers, then this shouldn't be a problem at all, while still keeping the "I have thousands of books at my study and have forgotten more spells than you'll ever know," character stereotype. Besides, as was mentioned before, you don't change attributes, so taking any set of powers that aren't based off of your key abilities makes them not as optimal. Wait, I missed the loss of implements, so they have no way of increasing to hit? Yeah, my bad, I'm not sure what I was thinking about this. Implements back in. But I'd like to put in Rods, too. I guess what I'm getting at is trading the only real thing left, Hit Points at start, HP gained per level, Healing surges/day. For 2 encounter powers instead of one, and 4 known to fit with him knowing 2x the spells per actual use, and opening up the spell choices to Arcane, which, without ability mod support, seamed not as big a deal as most of those powers need your other stats as well. Then I bumped in a ritual and some fluff which basically amounted to getting to choose a different character, but with the same name and stats, equipment, etc. |
| #12alumanJun 30, 2008 22:21:23 | Sure, the idea here is that the traditional "glass cannon" is more glassy. Lots more fragile. Now, we can go in between these HP and the Wizard's HP, and I'm sure that'd be fine. I'm not sure what the exact number here was to do. The complaint being addressed here was "too much HP." Now whether that's a valid complaint isn't here nor there, but it was something I thought could be tweaked some. Granted, I wouldn't exactly hand this to a new player as they'd probably just die a lot. Really, this is the part where it's the most tricky, basically, they should not get hit at all. and maybe die in two hits. Sucks, but that's the idea. Additionally, this keeps them from trying to fill the defender role later. I suppose, though, if need be, that the same starting Hit Points as the wizard and less gained per level can get you here, too. 5+10 = 15 hit points, goblin skirmsher 1d6+5+1d6 = Death one hit. Once again, this wizard has no early level survivability without gimping other sources for temporary hit points. Not a defender, not by a long shot. There's no body to put the defender powers on, any blade powers would require, well, a blade, so your spending feats on that, and there's no good strength. No, they might snatch a useful power or two, maybe, but they aren't going to be a defender. Striker, yes, hence "glass cannon." But this is the real strength of this write up to me. I can be a good striker OR a good controller, or maybe some of both. Thing is, you can't remake your stats, so when you get powers from other classes, they aren't going to be as good as whatever you stated for. Yes, I know that they can go Cha and Con and get good Warlock powers, but then their wizard powers are no longer as good. Armor of Agathys begs to differ, and when the TempHP of that runs out Vampiric Embrace, Int + Con races are uncommon, but you don't need amazing Con to pull it off. A Human Scholar Wizard gets 4 known encounter powers, but only can use 2. They get 4 choices of At-Will abilities. That's right. Healing Word isn't really a 'personal' power like wizard encounter powers, its to help keep the party mobile. They want at least 2 encounters a day, ergo: Two of the basic healing powers for a cleric. Now here I took some liberty with DMs everywhere. If, in between adventures, a player wanted to change his character, generally speaking, it's not a problem. So what if I had a fighter and wanted to play a rouge now instead. It may be better party balance, or I may just want to play a different character concept. This is how this works. Essentially, you're just making another character, so all the powers can just be chosen again. As long as, during the course of the adventure, you have to keep your regular balanced selection of powers, then this shouldn't be a problem at all, while still keeping the "I have thousands of books at my study and have forgotten more spells than you'll ever know," character stereotype. Besides, as was mentioned before, you don't change attributes, so taking any set of powers that aren't based off of your key abilities makes them not as optimal. Then if you allow it for all characters no class needs it as a power, if you don't, it allows the Wizard too much versatility. Yeah, my bad, I'm not sure what I was thinking about this. Implements back in. But I'd like to put in Rods, too. here is the thing: Utility spells attribute mods don't matter, a number of shifting square powers that target will, having -1 (essentially) doesn't matter. allowing a wizard to custom tailor his powers to what he is expecting to face: Overpowered. Doubling the offensive capability of this class: Overpowered. |
| #13theonlyjettJun 30, 2008 23:06:11 | Armor of Agathys begs to differ, and when the TempHP of that runs out Vampiric Embrace, Int + Con races are uncommon, but you don't need amazing Con to pull it off. So you use a daily to BECOME a tank, for a round or two, and then an encounter power to gain 5+Int? ok, then what do you do as a defender for the rest of the encounter? These powers can simulate in a pinch, but you cannot fill the defender role with them. Actual defender powers aren't going to make you a bigger tank so much as count on the fact that you already are. Again, without the actual body, no defender. Healing Word isn't really a 'personal' power like wizard encounter powers, its to help keep the party mobile. They want at least 2 encounters a day, ergo: Two of the basic healing powers for a cleric. Any power that heals or buffs anyone in the party or hinders or hurts any enemy in the encounter is good for the party. If you want to make the two count only as one, then fine, my point still stands. Also, that's 2 basic healings per encounter, not per day. allowing a wizard to custom tailor his powers to what he is expecting to face: Overpowered. Except he can't do that. When starting an adventure, all he's going to know is, "we could really use a striker," or "we could really use a controller," or "hey, mix it up, cause we're good." Doubling the offensive capability of this class: Overpowered. Which hasn't been done. |
| #14alumanJun 30, 2008 23:24:05 | So you use a daily to BECOME a tank, for a round or two, and then an encounter power to gain 5+Int? ok, then what do you do as a defender for the rest of the encounter? These powers can simulate in a pinch, but you cannot fill the defender role with them. Actual defender powers aren't going to make you a bigger tank so much as count on the fact that you already are. Again, without the actual body, no defender. Most of the powers of the Swordmage or whatever the Arcane Defender in FR is being called will be available to this class, I bet you that class runs either con or int based, I will lose a handful of hitpoints (replacable with encounter and dailies of the warlock). The mere fact you steal the thunder of a warlock if you chose, and add sleep into the mix without spending a feat makes it too unbalancing Any power that heals or buffs anyone in the party or hinders or hurts any enemy in the encounter is good for the party. If you want to make the two count only as one, then fine, my point still stands. Also, that's 2 basic healings per encounter, not per day. No healing is good for the party, hurting more than anyone else is, makes the class stand out that equates the class making all other classes poor cousins, and is broken by 4e's design and balance rules. Except he can't do that. When starting an adventure, all he's going to know is, "we could really use a striker," or "we could really use a controller," or "hey, mix it up, cause we're good." Arcana, history, streetwise all these skills lets you research up on your opponent, subtle clues beyond 'we are heading into a random dungeon' means the wizard can retrain his damage feat to meet the expected weaknesses he will be seeing, and select a wand that makes all his powers do this, or build one. This makes the class unbalanced. Which hasn't been done. At first level all other classes: 2 At Wills, 1 Attack Encounter, 1 Attack Daily. Scholar Wizard: 3 At wills (33% increase), 2 Attack Encounters (100% increase), 1 attack Daily Scholar Wizard: Allowed to pick and choose daily/encounter powers/at wills from 2 Classes Right Now, soon to be 3. Possibly more: Other Classes: One Class Scholar Wizard: Able to retrain all his powers to fit custom scenario Other Classes: Able to retrain one feat and power per level. Tell me how the Scholar wizard won't outshine All the other classes? If you let them outshine, it means the balance goals of 4E is broken. |