I quite liked the preview, although I am disappointed that so much of it contradicts what I've developed for my campaign. That isn't the fault of Fallcrest of course, however I will have to start my campaign in the northern hemisphere (as I want to run a default campaign world, where I change very little to nothing of the information given to us by WotC), simply because in my world the Nerath kingdom was located in the northern hemisphere.
Although given that an entire chapter is devoted to this town, I'm quite curious to learn how much of this town is going to be detailed. This, to me, sounds like a great foundation on a town with only one or two more pages necessary.
Here it is.
Although given that an entire chapter is devoted to this town, I'm quite curious to learn how much of this town is going to be detailed. This, to me, sounds like a great foundation on a town with only one or two more pages necessary.
Not to mention that the first three official adventures are going to be based in/near Fallcrest. Good stuff!
From the preview,
"It [Fallcrest] also trades with the nearby town of Winterhaven."
"With the rise of the empire of Nerath to the south, human settlers began to move up the Nentir, establishing towns such as Fastormel, Harkenwold, and Winterhaven."
One would assume this trading is done via road, but there are roads leading out of Fallcrest in all directions.
Winterhaven is in a fairly woody local, which might suggest NW, SW or SE of Fallcrest.
We know Humans populate the lands to the South and presumably the "Stonemarch" is to the North. So if Winterhaven was not attacked by orcs approx. 100 years ago, it would make sense for it to be South of Fallcrest. Does anyone know if it did come under attack?
The road leading North of Winterhaven leads to the Keep and is poorly maintained, making it unlikely to be a trade road.
"The road to Shadowfell Keep is arduous. Since the keep's destruction, few travelers use the road and no one bothers to maintain the path."
This leads me to assume that Winterhaven is probably West/South-West of Fallcrest, so the road that leads out left of the map becomes more over grown and eventually becomes King's Road. Then the road South of Winterhaven leads to more civilised Human lands.
From the maps, we know Winterhaven is at least 2 miles away from Fallcrest, and from the d20 SRD a cart or wagon can travel approx. 16 miles a day. So how many days trade travel are the two towns separated by? I don't see many trade wagons surviving the night parked alone on the road, so there must be small trading posts along the way, spaced out by roughly 16 miles.
Perhaps around 3 days travel, or 48 miles would be about right. That means PCs could do the journey in 2 days (assuming they stayed overnight at a trading post) or a day and a half if they slept rough between posts.
My conclusions (before seeing KotS or the DMG) Winterhaven is approx. 48 miles WSW of Fallcrest.
- nearest village (so not Fallcrest) to Winterhaven is five days to the East down Old King's Road
- King's Road runs East-West at Winterhaven
- Characters arrive traveling from East to West
So I'd say either:
- Fallcrest is East, beyond that village five days away.
- Fallcrest is West and Kings Road curves Northwards after skirting the Cairngorm Peaks.
where I prefer the latter.
By the way, WotC had to fill DMG with "something", just to replace the pages they moved into the PH.
An entire chapter.
Couldn't they print a DMG with 20 pages less?
A single city/town isn't very useful, you can't use it all the time: PCs roam, travel, walk across the planes.
I'm sure they could replace it with something better.
Fallcrest stands amid the Moon Hills at the falls of the Nentir River. Here travelers and traders using the old King’s Road that runs north and south, the dwarven Trade Road from the east, and the river all meet.
This would sugest that the old King's Road curves at some point, because it runs West - East instead of North - South acording to KotS. Unless it's an error in the DMG...
Fallcrest... mmm... I haven't seen such a more usless thing since a lot of time...
By the way, WotC had to fill DMG with "something", just to replace the pages they moved into the PH.
An entire chapter.
Couldn't they print a DMG with 20 pages less?
A single city/town isn't very useful, you can't use it all the time: PCs roam, travel, walk across the planes.
I'm sure they could replace it with something better.
I have to disagree. I love that they put this in the DMG. No you can't use it all the time. Then again you can't use EVERYTHING in the DMG all the time, that would get a bit predictable. "Okay guys, we've encountered the spinning blade trap and the poison trap so we know that there's still a freezing trap and a crushing trap to go in this dungeon."
The city is meant to be a location that the party can go to, at the very least to give you an idea of what to put into a city.
There is one thing that most people, and it seems like you may have also, forget is that not everyone who plays D&D4e has been playing for years. There may be new players to the game. I know it's easy to take for granted that you've been playing for a while and know how to do things, but not everyone will be as lucky or as skilled. The city can help a new DM, or a DM that doesn't have time to build a city. Then, there are some DM's that, while they can write an excellent adventure, they aren't good at the fiddly little details such as building a city. Maybe one day RPG books can be published with exactly what you want in them, but as it is now, they have to cater to new players, old players, and everything in between.
Now, as to walking the planes.. well, considering the city is for the heroic teir, I don't think that 1st-10th level characters will be walking through the elemental wastes or the shadowfell all that often. So giving info for them, by your facetious reasoning, shouldn't be put int he DMG because you won't be using them all the time either.
The city is large and can give a base of operations for the party which means lots of hooks to get the players moving along the way for them to be walking those planes/exploring the world.
I have to disagree. I love that they put this in the DMG. No you can't use it all the time. Then again you can't use EVERYTHING in the DMG all the time, that would get a bit predictable. "Okay guys, we've encountered the spinning blade trap and the poison trap so we know that there's still a freezing trap and a crushing trap to go in this dungeon."
The city is meant to be a location that the party can go to, at the very least to give you an idea of what to put into a city.
There is one thing that most people, and it seems like you may have also, forget is that not everyone who plays D&D4e has been playing for years. There may be new players to the game. I know it's easy to take for granted that you've been playing for a while and know how to do things, but not everyone will be as lucky or as skilled. The city can help a new DM, or a DM that doesn't have time to build a city. Then, there are some DM's that, while they can write an excellent adventure, they aren't good at the fiddly little details such as building a city. Maybe one day RPG books can be published with exactly what you want in them, but as it is now, they have to cater to new players, old players, and everything in between.
Now, as to walking the planes.. well, considering the city is for the heroic teir, I don't think that 1st-10th level characters will be walking through the elemental wastes or the shadowfell all that often. So giving info for them, by your facetious reasoning, shouldn't be put int he DMG because you won't be using them all the time either.
The city is large and can give a base of operations for the party which means lots of hooks to get the players moving along the way for them to be walking those planes/exploring the world.
Right. I can't use everything all the times. But in the world towns are REALLY different one from another. Having just one is a bit restrictive, don't you think? There's plenty of modules just for that, like "Sharn city of towers" or any campaign module focused on a region, like "Silver Marches", "Unapproachable East" or "Five Nations". In this modules we have plenty of towns ready to use, each one different from others.
You may argue that many players don't like using pregen campaigns, but they can just use them to save time if they need.
When referring to plane walking I meant that PCs face so many challenges and travel so far that having just ONE town (I don't mind if it's heroic-tier or epic-tier) isn't so useful. Maybe, it doesn't even save much time.
Another note: previous DMGs never had 20 pages dedicated to ONE town in detail.
My criticism is about the uselessness of 20 pages-town. Put in 100 pages of material which talkes about cities, castles, empires, communication roads and whatever makes a world belivable and live. Then a DM will save a lot of time, and many players will have a more enjoyable game experience.
This is my facetiuos reasoning.
Right. I can't use everything all the times. But in the world towns are REALLY different one from another. Having just one is a bit restrictive, don't you think? There's plenty of modules just for that, like "Sharn city of towers" or any campaign module focused on a region, like "Silver Marches", "Unapproachable East" or "Five Nations". In this modules we have plenty of towns ready to use, each one different from others.
You may argue that many players don't like using pregen campaigns, but they can just use them to save time if they need.
Who says that there is only one? The excerpt they gave us specifically cites using it as an example on how to build a town. You still seem to be thinking from the eyes of someone who's been playing for a while. Please try to think about the new players, specifically the new DM who's never done this before. He (or she) may not know what to do or where to start to build a town, so now there is one. My whole point is just because YOU don't find it useful doesn't mean that someone out there won't find it EXTREMELY useful.
When referring to plane walking I meant that PCs face so many challenges and travel so far that having just ONE town (I don't mind if it's heroic-tier or epic-tier) isn't so useful. Maybe, it doesn't even save much time.
It's really going to depend on the campaign. What if the heroes live in this town, and it's there home. They may come back to it again and again. Or they may be vagabonds that just go through it once (or never) and continue on their journey.
Another note: previous DMGs never had 20 pages dedicated to ONE town in detail.
Previous DMGs had magic items in them. They don't now. Just because something has always been done a particular way doesn't mean it always has to.
My criticism is about the uselessness of 20 pages-town. Put in 100 pages of material which talkes about cities, castles, empires, communication roads and whatever makes a world belivable and live. Then a DM will save a lot of time, and many players will have a more enjoyable game experience.
What use are those pages about cities, castles, empires, communication roads or whatever if I run a city based campaign where the pc's never leave the town? Suddenly that 20 pages town becomes extremely useful. It all depends on the individual DM and their campaigns. You can't please everyone all the time. Hell, with all the whining on the board I don't think 4e can please ANYONE any of the time.
This doesn't please you because you don't think it's useful, but I on the opposite, am happy with it because it gives a large city for the pc's to travel to. I'm going to akin Fallcrest to Las Vegas. The PC's go there every once and a while to see the big city then return to their small little farming village or continue on their way adventuring. But if they need to relax and spend their money, well, to FALLCREST!Although I'd love to spend the time to create an entire world myself, I can't. I'm not waiting for any 4e settings to come out before I start playing. And I tend to not care for the settings they like to focus on - Forgotten Realms, Ebberon. I love the generic "points of light" setting and having them flesh some of it out saves me tons of time. Sure I'm still going to have to flesh out anywhere else the players decide to go, but now there's one less thing I need to spend hours on.
I do plan on using this city later as it is larger than mine. I believe they said that part of the chapter for falcrest was also the valley it is in which I am guessing will have quest ideas and it has already show at least 3 stated npcs are in the chapter as well. As a new dm that would have dmed many times before but was hesitant because of the massive amounts of rules and supplements in 3.5 I think any help given is welcomed.
All this said I will keep my town mostly because several of my players really liked it and have incorporated it in to their backstories. Mine is also more detailed though smaller (50 buildings with only 20 buildings being houses the rest are specific buildings or shops). I may steal some of the npcs or quest ideas though as well as make it a destination for some escort missions.
Sure, my vision of Fallcrest and its residents will probably be significantly different than others', but we'll all have a rough idea of what Fallcrest is.
Orest is interesting-if he's an 8th level skirmisher, why does he have 350 XP? He's also pretty low on equipment. (Unless they're only showing some of his equipment, etc.)
I've been DM-ing since before AD&D. I'm retired so I have a lot of time to create a city. I still like that they put one in there-now I have one less city to build, plus it shows one of the 4E designer's take on a city in this edition.
Orest is interesting-if he's an 8th level skirmisher, why does he have 350 XP? He's also pretty low on equipment. (Unless they're only showing some of his equipment, etc.)
Umm I thought that was the standard xp for 8th level see Excerpt Economy & reward 350 for standard 88 for minion 700 for elite 1750 for solo. Seeming that he is a shop owner I dont see much use in him haveing a large amount of armor or items on him while selling stuff.
I really don't care if he had any equipment, but considering he has his pick of magic items and has to deal with strangers, I imagine he'd wear some decent defensive stuff all of the time. I imagine this was the 'lite' version of the character.
Who says that there is only one? The excerpt they gave us specifically cites using it as an example on how to build a town. You still seem to be thinking from the eyes of someone who's been playing for a while. Please try to think about the new players, specifically the new DM who's never done this before. He (or she) may not know what to do or where to start to build a town, so now there is one. My whole point is just because YOU don't find it useful doesn't mean that someone out there won't find it EXTREMELY useful.
Well, even I have been a a new DM. "Useful" is not "Necessary". We'll have tons of DDInsider articles to fill with towns and similiars. And it would be really interesting, that way: who needs it, can have it. I think DDInsider is actually a great tool to shift topics that not everyboby may be interested in.
It's really going to depend on the campaign. What if the heroes live in this town, and it's there home. They may come back to it again and again. Or they may be vagabonds that just go through it once (or never) and continue on their journey.
As you say, it depends on the campaign, players choices and DM. I don't think the first 4ed DMG should cover aspects that may never come into play. For that, I think DDInsider will be better. Or at least, give 90, 100, 80 pages to those topics, just to explain something more than a town. What about building a kingdom? What about 2 rival kingdoms? This should save an amount of time even greater, and I think it would please many more people. Including me.
Previous DMGs had magic items in them. They don't now. Just because something has always been done a particular way doesn't mean it always has to.
I can't argue with that. What I'm saying - again - is: if you (WotC) want do do something... do it well! Don't limitate to ONE town and it's surroundings. You want to help new DMs/PCs to save time and theach how to build a town? Great! But don't do only this.
What use are those pages about cities, castles, empires, communication roads or whatever if I run a city based campaign where the pc's never leave the town? Suddenly that 20 pages town becomes extremely useful. It all depends on the individual DM and their campaigns. You can't please everyone all the time. Hell, with all the whining on the board I don't think 4e can please ANYONE any of the time.
As you said, no handbook (nor game) can please everybody. But if you cover every aspect (or the majority) of a topic, you can please many people. And save a lot of time to even more people.