The transition to the new boards completely changed the formatting on this, rendering most of it unrecoverable, and unreadable. As such I am rewriting the class and creating a new post. I will post a link here as soon as it is done
I'm working on a new class and I'd really appreciate any help that I can get. Right now I am calling the class the "Exemplar," but if anyone can think of a better name feel free to suggest it. I originally called this class the "Scoundrel" but I felt that overlapped with "brutal scoundrel" for the rogue.
The Idea:
This class is a high-skill martial controller which can lean towards leader as a secondary role. An exemplar should be able to fill the party "skill monkey," "face," or "scholar" roles, a bit of a jack-of-all-trades like a bard. The high number of skills the class gets is one of its main features (though it should be noted that it starts with the same number of skills as a rogue, and fewer in some cases).
Flavor wise, the exemplar could be viewed as similar to a rogue or a bard, but is not necessarily sneaky, thieving, or charismatic (though it can be those things if properly set up). The class is also neither a striker nor a healer.
The Writeup:
EXEMPLAR
"Well that was bracing. By the way, they don't like it when you shoot at them, I worked that out myself."
CLASS TRAITS
Role: Controller. You control the battlefield using your wits and more than a little luck. You often surprise your enemies with your tenacity. You lean towards leader as a secondary role.
Power Source: Martial. You're abilities come from your strength of both body and mind.
Key Abilities: Intelligence, Charisma, Dexterity
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather, Chain
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple Melee, Simple Ranged
Implement: Gadget Bag
Bonus to Defense: +1 Reflex, +1 Will
Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges per Day: 6 + Constitution Modifier
Trained Skills: From the class skills list below, choose four trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Dungeoneering (Wis), Endurance(Con), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Streetwise (Cha), Thievery (Dex)
Class Features: Exemplar's Gift, Wardrobe Versatility, Decisive Action, Never Helpless
Flavor Text goes here (I'll get to it)
Exemplar Class Features
Exemplars survive through various combinations of wit, charm, skill, and luck. All exemplars have the class features described below
EXEMPLAR'S GIFT
Exemplars differ greatly from one to the next, but the one thing they all have in common is that they are gifted at what they do. Choose one of the following gifts. The choice you make gives you the benefit described below and also provides bonuses to certain exemplar powers, as detailed in those powers.
Gift of Gab: You gain training in Diplomacy and Bluff. You gain a +1 bonus to all Cha based skill checks (but not attacks).
Gift of Knowledge: You add all knowledge skills to your class skill list and gain training in one of your choice. You know one additional language. When rolling knowledge checks you may roll 2d20 and take the better result.
Gift of Leadership: You gain training in Perception and Insight. Once per round when you make an attack with an exemplar attack power you may mark one target that you hit. This mark lasts until the end of your next turn.
Gift of Luck: You gain training in Acrobatics and Athletics. Once per encounter, you may either:
1: Roll 2d20 in place of 1d20 and pick which die to use
2: Force an effect or attack targeting you to roll 2d20 in place of 1d20 and use the die of your choice
WARDROBE VERSATILITY:
When wearing no armor or cloth armor, an exemplar may add the lower of their dexterity or intelligence modifier to AC up to a maximum of +3. When wearing chain armor, an exemplar gains +1 to Fort
DECISIVE ACTION An exemplar starts with 2 action points after an extended rest, rather than 1.
NEVER HELPLESS An exemplar gains a +2 proficiency bonus on all improvised attacks, including unarmed attacks. An exemplar gains a +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls with improvised weapons at 6th level. An exemplar also gains a +1 enhancement bonus to AC when wearing no armor at 6th level. These bonuses increase to +2 at 11th level, +3 at 16th level, +4 at 21st level, +5 at 26th level, and +6 at 30th level.
IMPLEMENT
Exemplars make use of a Gadget Bag for some of their powers. A gadget bag is a mundane item used for any exemplar attack with the Implement keyword. An exemplar implement attack is considered to be improvised, and thus subject to the Never Helpless class feature described above. An exemplar can not make an implement attack unless he or she is carrying a gadget bag.
A gadget bag, despite its name, may be a pouch, belt, sack, or any other type of container subject to DM discretion. Gadgets are unusual items, that the exemplar has found while traveling, or mundane items that the exemplar has found an unusual use for. A gadget bag never runs out of trinkets, as the exemplar constantly scrounges more.
Gadgets may be given to another creature for use. One of the exemplar's powers with the gadget keyword may be transferred to an adjacent, willing creature with a move action, or to a willing creature within 5 squares with a standard action. Until the end of the encounter, the exemplar loses the ability to use that power, but the receiving creature gains the ability to use it. This ability does not grant any additional uses of the power.
EXEMPLAR POWESR:
At Wills
Suppression Fire ---------- Exemplar Attack 1 You launch a barrage of shots at the enemy, forcing them to keep their heads down. At-Will * Martial, Weapon Standard Action -- Area Burst 1 within weapon range Requirement: Must be wielding a ranged weapon Target: Each creature in burst Attack: Intelligence vs Reflex Hit: 1[w] Effect: All targets are slowed until the end of your next turn. Special: Do not add weapon proficiency bonus to this attack Distracting Hit---------- Exemplar Attack 1 "Go, I'll cover you. Go!" At-Will * Martial, Weapon Standard Action -- Melee or Ranged Weapon Target: One Creature Attack: Intelligence vs AC Hit: 1[w]+Intelligence modifier damage, and the target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of your next turn. Change of tactics ---------- Exemplar Attack 1 "I immediately regret this decision." At-Will * Martial, Weapon Standard Action -- Melee or Ranged Weapon Target: One Creature Attack: Intelligence vs AC Hit: 1[w]+Intelligence modifier damage Special: After the attack you can shift 2 squares or shift one ally you can see 2 squares Gift of Luck: The number of squares you can shift is equal to your dexterity modifier (minimum 2) Gift of Leadership: The number of squares your ally can shift is equal to your charisma modifier (minimum 2) Turn the Tide ---------- Exemplar Attack 1 You remain calm in the face of adversity, inspiring your comrades to continue on. At-Will * Martial, Weapon Standard Action -- Melee or Ranged Weapon Target: One Creature Attack: Intelligence vs AC Hit: 1[w]+Intelligence modifier damage and one ally who can see you gains temporary hitpoints equal to your charisma modifier Weak Spot ---------- Exemplar Attack 1 "Go for the legs, it might be our only chance of stopping them." At-Will * Martial, Weapon Standard Action -- Melee or Ranged Weapon Target: One Creature Attack: Intelligence vs Fortitude Hit: 1[w] and the next ally to attack the target has combat advantage for that attack Gift of Knowledge Add your intelligence modifier to your damage dealt Confusing Combat ---------- Exemplar Attack 1 You confuse and distract everyone around you with your unusual style of fighting. At-Will * Martial, Weapon Standard Action -- Close Burst 1 Requirement: Must be wielding a melee weapon Target: All creatures in burst Attack: Intelligence + 1 for each creature adjacent to you vs Will Hit: Intelligence Modifier Damage and you slide the target 1 square Effect: Shift one square Special: Do not add weapon proficiency bonus to your attack roll Gift of Gab You gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to your charisma modifier. Direct Smash ---------- Exemplar Attack 1 When all else fails, you hit them in the face At-Will * Martial, Weapon Standard Action -- Melee Weapon Target: One creature Attack: Intelligence vs AC Hit: 1[w]+Strength modifier+Intelligence modifier damage
Also, there are more than a few things wrong with the Never Unarmed Power:
- it's a minor action at-will attack. Ye gods, the damage you could cause.
- since it can't be used with a magic weapon, it becomes nearly useless at higher levels.
- the 1[W] is confusing, since it must be an unarmed attack, and it lacks the weapon keyword. So... regular unarmed damage, I'm guessing? Why bother stating it needs to be improvised?
- The name "Never Unarmed" just kind of grates on me, because it must be an Unarmed attack. This is mostly a personal issue, though.
Not to sling mud on your idea or anything, but what part of this couldn't be accomplished by just playing a rogue/warlord, and possibly taking skill training?
This character is based on intelligence rather than dexterity as a main score, though rewarded for having dex as well. The character is also skill based like the bard and not a striker (no sneak attack). When I fill in the powers you'll find they all aid allies and put effects on the enemy, thus, a leader/controller, not a striker.
Quite different from a rogue.
- The name "Never Unarmed" just kind of grates on me, because it must be an Unarmed attack. This is mostly a personal issue, though.
Ok, I can change the name, haha. It's my first pass and I'm poor at naming things.
- it's a minor action at-will attack. Ye gods, the damage you could cause.
- since it can't be used with a magic weapon, it becomes nearly useless at higher levels.
Well it can only be used once per round so it can't be strung together 3 times. To deal with the lack of level scaling I'd need to add in a + to attack at paragon tier, and so on.
Thanks for the comments.
This character is based on intelligence rather than dexterity as a main score, though rewarded for having dex as well. The character is also skill based like the bard and not a striker (no sneak attack). When I fill in the powers you'll find they all aid allies and put effects on the enemy, thus, a leader/controller, not a striker.
Quite different from a rogue.
Pardon me. A Tactical Warlord/Ranger could probably accomplish what you're looking for, though. Also, "never unarmed" allows you to deal an extra 1d6+1/2 mod each round, though it requires an attack to hit. This is essentially a poor version of striker damage. Truthfully, based on the class features I've seen, this looks like a striker. That's kind of the problem with showing off a class and not posting any of its powers.
As a caution: Allowing a class to do multiple roles is incredibly difficult to balance. Either it'll be bad at both (which makes you wonder why you wouldn't just pick a class that can specialize in what you want) or it'll be good at both, in which case you have a hard time justifying picking something else.
The first few at-will powers are available.
Your critiques seem to fall mostly on the idea that this character could be simulated using 2 other classes. Would that not be true of the paladin (fighter cleric), swordmage (wizard fighter) and various other classes as well? I appreciate the feedback of course, but I'm looking more at how to refine the class, not how it might overlap.
Here's a question: How do I word suppression fire so that it is a burst attack but uses a ranged weapon's range rather than "burst X within Y"
Class Features: Exemplar's Gift, Double Quick, Decisive Action Are way to powerful.
Care to go a little more in depth on that?
Let's look at double quick:
You gain a full or half of another ability score to AC, and only when you wear cloth or leather. This is something the warden does (with con which also adds to HP) even when wearing hide armor. In addition, the secondary ability, dex, is not a particular help for any other ability the class gets.
If you're referring to 3 proficiency for unarmed attacks, that gives you a +3 1d4 attack that cannot be enchanted, making it weaker than the dagger, or a +2 1d4 attack that, I suppose, could be enchanted. Again, weaker than a dagger.
Let's look at exemplar's gift:
First off, each ability gives you either double skill training or skill training and a language. The skill training brings you in line with the total number of skills a rogue gets. The extra language could hardly be considered overpower as it's exactly 1/3rd of a heroic tier feat.
So I assume you're talking about the secondary abilities.
Gift of gab: +1 to cha based skill checks. This has less impact that jack of all trades, as it effects only a select group of skills. Seriously? overpowered?
Gift of Knowledge: Roll 2d20 for knowledge checks and take the better result. This is on par with a paragon tier feat, agile athlete which lets you do the same with athletics and acrobatics, except knowledge checks are mostly out of combat occurrences, giving this ability less power than a paragon tier feat.
Gift of Leadership: A +1 to initiative is half of what a warlord gets. Do the +1 to perception and insight for allies signal an overpowered ability?
Gift of Luck: This is one I could see where you're coming from, except you didn't say if this is the one you were referring to. The ability to, once per encounter, reroll an attack or make DM reroll a hit is a combination of elven reroll and halfling second chance. You have to pick one or the other per encounter but it is more versatile. In addition you get a power bonus, something I could remove to try to better balance the power. I could see where you are coming from on this, will removing the bonus help?
Let's look at decisive action. You get a single extra action point, and you can use one additional daily item power per day. This one I have little to compare to, so I could see that purhaps this could be overpowered, though I'd love to hear some reasons as to why and how it could be fixed, please post again and give me some specific pointers on this.
Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming.
Care to go a little more in depth on that?
Let's look at double quick:
You gain a full or half of another ability score to AC, and only when you wear cloth or leather. This is something the warden does (with con which also adds to HP) even when wearing hide armor. In addition, the secondary ability, dex, is not a particular help for any other ability the class gets.
Key Abilities: Intelligence, Charisma, Dexterity
You get Int for attacking and AC + Dex for Initiative and AC.
Dex is used by 2 of the at-will powers. I wouldn't call that "not a particular help for any other ability the class gets."
If you're referring to 3 proficiency for unarmed attacks, that gives you a +3 1d4 attack that cannot be enchanted, making it weaker than the dagger, or a +2 1d4 attack that, I suppose, could be enchanted. Again, weaker than a dagger.
If it is so weak, why put it in there for in the first place? However what about the other improvised weapons? You know the 2-handed one or maybe the ranged one?
Let's look at exemplar's gift:
First off, each ability gives you either double skill training or skill training and a language. The skill training brings you in line with the total number of skills a rogue gets. The extra language could hardly be considered overpower as it's exactly 1/3rd of a heroic tier feat.
You do realize this class has only Stealth and Thievery not on their skill list? Play as an Eladrin and you can pick one of those, take the right background and now there isn't a skill....
So I assume you're talking about the secondary abilities.
Gift of gab: +1 to cha based skill checks. This has less impact that jack of all trades, as it effects only a select group of skills. Seriously? overpowered?
Gift of Knowledge: Roll 2d20 for knowledge checks and take the better result. This is on par with a paragon tier feat, agile athlete which lets you do the same with athletics and acrobatics, except knowledge checks are mostly out of combat occurrences, giving this ability less power than a paragon tier feat.
Gift of Leadership: A +1 to initiative is half of what a warlord gets. Do the +1 to perception and insight for allies signal an overpowered ability?
Gift of Luck: This is one I could see where you're coming from, except you didn't say if this is the one you were referring to. The ability to, once per encounter, reroll an attack or make DM reroll a hit is a combination of elven reroll and halfling second chance. You have to pick one or the other per encounter but it is more versatile. In addition you get a power bonus, something I could remove to try to better balance the power. I could see where you are coming from on this, will removing the bonus help?
Let's look at decisive action. You get a single extra action point, and you can use one additional daily item power per day. This one I have little to compare to, so I could see that perhaps this could be overpowered, though I'd love to hear some reasons as to why and how it could be fixed, please post again and give me some specific pointers on this.
Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming.
It's what the warden gets...it's what the rogue gets.. it's what another class gets....except now you decided to combine all these other classes features, into one special class.
You keep saying well the Warlord class feature is better, a feat is better... This is one of the biggest mistakes by people wanting to make their own classes. They borrow from this one and this one and that one, combine it all together and get something like this. They never take into consideration what a class gives up when they get access to something else.
Key Abilities: Intelligence, Charisma, Dexterity
You get Int for attacking and AC + Dex for Initiative and AC.
Dex is used by 2 of the at-will powers. I wouldn't call that "not a particular help for any other ability the class gets."
Quite right, some of the at-wills gain some plus from dexterity. I have to stand by the idea, though, that using standard methods of ability score generation, this class will have an AC on par with a rogue or a bard, that is, lightly armored (bard with chain and light shield: 17, Rogue with leather and +4 or +5 dex, 16 or 17, Exemplar with +4 or +5 int and +2 or +3 Dex, 16-18 in cloth, 17-18 in leather). If you're maxing out both int and dex you're losing out in other areas.
If it is so weak, why put it in there for in the first place? However what about the other improvised weapons? You know the 2-handed one or maybe the ranged one?
Let's look at the 2 handed and ranged improvised weapons. The 2 hander will be +2 prof, 1d8, equal to a quarterstaff, and, again, who finds a magical improvised weapon? Thus strictly inferior to a quarterstaff. The ranged weapon will be a +2 1d4 with 5/10 range, again inferior to any listed ranged weapon.
Your other point is a direct argument against your first, do you find this ability too powerful or too weak? It can't be both. I have it in there for flavor and for versatility, this character will be able to fight even if stripped of weapons. Weapons are still, in almost every situation, better.
You do realize this class has only Stealth and Thievery not on their skill list? Play as an Eladrin and you can pick one of those, take the right background and now there isn't a skill....
I meant to have those on the list actually, thanks for pointing out that I missed them.
Indeed, one of the main points of this character is that it can be a skill master, capable of being trained in as many skills as a rogue at 1st level, and more with feats. It's a feature, not a mistake.
You keep saying well the Warlord class feature is better, a feat is better... This is one of the biggest mistakes by people wanting to make their own classes. They borrow from this one and this one and that one, combine it all together and get something like this. They never take into consideration what a class gives up when they get access to something else.
If you have a problem with the idea of a home brewed class perhaps you're browsing the wrong board.
Edit: My apologies, meant to add more to that last paragraph.
What else do we have to look at other than the other published classes for D&D 4.0? What other comparison could I make for the general power and usefulness of my class? This class does not have a healing-word type power, no ability to mark, and no striker-type damage. It's a controller, and so it is giving up the rest of those abilities. It's major features revolve around a high number of skills and a semi-decent AC while not wearing armor, does that really make it too powerful?
10 + 15 (level) + 8 (dex) + 8 (int) + 8 (magic cloth armor) = 49
compare to a paladin in full plate:
10 + 15 (level) + 20 (magic full plate) + 2 (shield) = 47
You're already 2 higher than the tanking character, and that doesn't even include stuff like demigod (another +2, if you bump dex and int). Granted, he can take shield specialization and armor specialization, but even then he can only equal your AC, and that's only if you don't take demigod. Otherwise he has no way to catch up.
He has to give up two feats, the ability to use a two handed weapon, and one movement speed, and all you have to do is increase your primary stats. Oh, and you can always take shield proficiency as well, boosting your AC even further. So, his maximum achievable AC is 49, and yours is 53. Do you not see a problem with this?
I'd just like to point out: Double Quick is way broken. Getting both my int and dex to AC when in cloth is too much. Sure, I'll "lose out" on other areas, but who cares if I can't even be hit?! Going with an Eladrin, I can easily get 18 dex and int at the start of the game, giving me an AC of 18. Since I can increase both by +8 before the end of the game, I can have an AC like this:
10 + 15 (level) + 8 (dex) + 8 (int) + 8 (magic cloth armor) = 49
compare to a paladin in full plate:
10 + 15 (level) + 20 (magic full plate) + 2 (shield) = 47
You're already 2 higher than the tanking character, and that doesn't even include stuff like demigod (another +2, if you bump dex and int). Granted, he can take shield specialization and armor specialization, but even then he can only equal your AC, and that's only if you don't take demigod. Otherwise he has no way to catch up.
He has to give up two feats, the ability to use a two handed weapon, and one movement speed, and all you have to do is increase your primary stats. Oh, and you can always take shield proficiency as well, boosting your AC even further. So, his maximum achievable AC is 49, and yours is 53. Do you not see a problem with this?
No, you're right, it's overpowered, thanks for running the numbers on that.
I appreciate the feedback, I am, of course, asking for help so I can make this class work.
How about this then:
Double-Quick:
When wearing leather armor and not using a shield, the Exemplar gains their dexterity modifier as a bonus to AC up to a maximum of +1.
When wearing cloth armor and not using a shield, the Exemplar gains their dexterity modifier as a bonus to AC up to a maximum of +3.
In this way, The exemplar gains a +1 as long as they have 12 or higher in dex and wear leather, essentially giving leather a +3 armor bonus instead of +2. Their bonus will also be +3 for cloth armor but only if they have a very high dex.
Using your Eladrin example and starting with 18 dex, you'll have a AC of 17, higher than a bard or rogue but then, it's a class feature so it's supposed to give you an advantage. For the + 1 AC over a rogue with the same stats you're losing first strike, sneak attack, etc.
Still using your Eladrin example:
Exemplar: 10 + 15 (level) + 3 (dex) + 8 (int) + 8 (magic cloth armor) = 44
Bard : 10 + 15 (level) + 8 (int) + 1(shield) + 10 (magic leath. armor) = 44
Rogue : 10 + 15 (level) + 8 (int) + 10 (magic leather armor) = 43
Paladin : 10 + 15 (level) + 20 (magic full plate) + 2 (shield) = 47
I really want to see this class succeed.
Please don't mix and match class features from other Roles: You want a controller, base this guy's features off of controllers only. That way there are no amalgamations of roles in one uber-class. Given, this limits your reference points a bit but this is how to keep things balanced.
I really want to see this class succeed.
Thanks, I appreciate the words of encouragement.
I'll definitely try to limit to controller-type abilities. This guy will have 1 or 2 leader-type powers as well, though obviously less than a normal leader. Several of the classes are hybrid like that now, like the paladin who has lots of leader flavor but is a defender, or swordmage who is a great controller but also a defender.
I don't have any healing-word power so I don't think I'm overloaded on the leader side right now.
First off I want to thank everyone who's replied to the thread so far and helped me sound out balance and flavor issues. I think the class has come a long way since its original incarnation.
I'd really appreciate feedback on how things are looking right now. I'm primarily looking for power balance, how to make the exemplar powers on-par with other class's powers of the same level. I'm also looking for ways to improve on flavor, which is the main point of this whole endeavor.
What do people think of the "trinket" system? I felt it was a good way to give a martial character some unusual attacks with burst, blast, wall, and zone keywords without forcing him to use a ranged weapon.